The Rapid Decline of Christianity in the USA

[Shadow Wolf]

Sorry to read that, but I'm sure that you know that is common.

Very much so. In my situation, I can create a "check list" of "reasons why people start to not like me after they learn x about me." Having no affiliation or concern with religion tends to top that list. My mom even took to me coming out as trans way better than she did me coming out to her as a non-believer. And that is something I have my sister to thank for, getting all concerned about this "end of the world" nonsense and asking mom if my brother and I are "right with god," prompting mom to ask me what exactly it is that I believe because it's just something I never discuss or talk about unless someone else brings it up.
It's also funny, because my mom is religious, but my sister is so squirrel-turd nutty over it that it even irritates my mom.

And if you go that route, consider adding at the end that you're only telling them these things to help them because you love them, and would like to see them saved from religion.

I've tried. I've tried explaining to them that astrology and tarot cards don't actually work and are so vague they can pretty much apply to any random person. I've tried pointing out their flawed logic and inconsistencies. I've even tried explaining that I would appreciate it if they could actually respect my views enough to not try to constantly challenge and change them. But my sister tries to reverse it, even by stating I was better off when I had faith, even though I tried explaining to her that back then I was an extremely depressed, suicidal, hateful bigot and I've never been worse off. And even though pretty much every body else has noticed tremendous improvements in my psychological functioning and health over the past several months, according to my sister I was better off when I was praying for death and crying myself to sleep. It's actually really sad to see how poisonous and toxic religion can be, that having faith alone is enough to make you "better off," regardless of what sort of cognitive state you were in at the time (and without regards to tremendous and significant improvements since). Myself, I don't know how much longer I could have survived that state of being "better off."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's another example of a thought crime. Christianity is fond of them. Unbelief is punished with perdition. Being aroused physically by another person is adultery if either is married. Coveting the possessions of another is also a thought crime. Christianity teaches that God is reading your mind, and will reward or punish you for your desires.

That too, but even allowing for that: actual murder includes the "thought crime" too. If we treat them the same, then we're implicitly saying that the difference between the "thought crime" and the actual crime - i.e. the loss of someone's life - doesn't matter.

 

[joe1776]

Very much so. In my situation, I can create a "check list" of "reasons why people start to not like me after they learn x about me." Having no affiliation or concern with religion tends to top that list. My mom even took to me coming out as trans way better than she did me coming out to her as a non-believer. And that is something I have my sister to thank for, getting all concerned about this "end of the world" nonsense and asking mom if my brother and I are "right with god," prompting mom to ask me what exactly it is that I believe because it's just something I never discuss or talk about unless someone else brings it up.
It's also funny, because my mom is religious, but my sister is so squirrel-turd nutty over it that it even irritates my mom.

I've tried. I've tried explaining to them that astrology and tarot cards don't actually work and are so vague they can pretty much apply to any random person. I've tried pointing out their flawed logic and inconsistencies. I've even tried explaining that I would appreciate it if they could actually respect my views enough to not try to constantly challenge and change them. But my sister tries to reverse it, even by stating I was better off when I had faith, even though I tried explaining to her that back then I was an extremely depressed, suicidal, hateful bigot and I've never been worse off. And even though pretty much every body else has noticed tremendous improvements in my psychological functioning and health over the past several months, according to my sister I was better off when I was praying for death and crying myself to sleep. It's actually really sad to see how poisonous and toxic religion can be, that having faith alone is enough to make you "better off," regardless of what sort of cognitive state you were in at the time (and without regards to tremendous and significant improvements since). Myself, I don't know how much longer I could have survived that state of being "better off."

I've read your posts. I have these suggestions and I hope they help:

Stop using the word 'respect' when you talk about beliefs. Beliefs are either true or false. You can't respect beliefs that you think are wrong but you can give people respect even when you disagree with them.

Stop trying to convince your relatives that they're wrong. That's a waste of time and energy. When they raise religion as a topic, suddenly realize that you have somewhere else to be.

Realize that you very little control over what others say or do to you; but you have absolute control of how you react to what others say or do to you. So, focus on self-control.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Very much so. In my situation, I can create a "check list" of "reasons why people start to not like me after they learn x about me." Having no affiliation or concern with religion tends to top that list. My mom even took to me coming out as trans way better than she did me coming out to her as a non-believer.

You remind me of another poster that told us that he was a gay, atheistic vegetarian. I'll bet that you can correctly guess for yourself which of these was the biggest problem for him before clicking below.

Spoiler

vegetarian

I've even tried explaining that I would appreciate it if they could actually respect my views enough to not try to constantly challenge and change them. But my sister tries to reverse it, even by stating I was better off when I had faith, even though I tried explaining to her that back then I was an extremely depressed, suicidal, hateful bigot and I've never been worse off. And even though pretty much every body else has noticed tremendous improvements in my psychological functioning and health over the past several months, according to my sister I was better off when I was praying for death and crying myself to sleep.

Very tragic story. You have my empathy. It's a very divisive ideology. I'm glad you're doing better now.

• "The division is entirely one sided. I didn't end relationships when I became an atheist. Christians ended those relationships, and it was because their particular religion cannot tolerate - I have letters from people who said 'We can no longer associate with you. You are of the devil." - Matt Dillahunty

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Very tragic story. You have my empathy. It's a very divisive ideology. I'm glad you're doing better now.

• "The division is entirely one sided. I didn't end relationships when I became an atheist. Christians ended those relationships, and it was because their particular religion cannot tolerate - I have letters from people who said 'We can no longer associate with you. You are of the devil." - Matt Dillahunty

Other than the letter part, that parallels my experience in that Christians ended their relationship with me. One that I thought was a friend even went as far to say I am "demonically possessed."
If people wonder why Christianity is in decline, they only need to look at the behaviors of those who describe themselves as Christian. And you don't even have to be Muslim, or LBGT, or non-religious to get butt end of this group. A whole bunch of them go get righteous and saved on Sunday, and then go treat those serving them in restaurants and gas stations and movie theaters like crap.
Slowly, I think people are beginning to realize Christianity, as an organized religion, assumes it has the inherent right to run the show and the lives of everyone involved, and they aren't liking it. What is interesting is without political motivation for dominance, Christianity went in that direction anyways. Christ didn't need to establish his kingdom on earth - the kings and conquerers of old did it for him.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Stop using the word 'respect' when you talk about beliefs. Beliefs are either true or false. You can't respect beliefs that you think are wrong but you can give people respect even when you disagree with them.

When I say respect, I mean at least quit instigating and saying hateful nasty lies. And, by instigating, I mean flooding my phone with texts about god and the end of the world (when a regular harvest moon but of larger-than-normal size was forecast), and constantly bringing the issue up. If I can tolerate and at least get along with people who active vote for politicians who want to strip me of various rights and liberties, and even people I utterly loath just for my own sake (specific coworker I had in mind that I used to be stuck with in a car for hours a day), she can at least stop pushing the subject.
I don't care what people think. However, I do expect to be treated with decency and respect. Bringing up the subject the way my sister and husband do is the exact opposite of this. It is rude, it is disrespectful, and more people need to be called out on it, and more people need to be calling out those who do it.

Stop trying to convince your relatives that they're wrong. That's a waste of time and energy. When they raise religion as a topic, suddenly realize that you have somewhere else to be.

Typically trying to prove them wrong is launching a defense that I do have a meaning and purpose in life. Or that I'm of good moral standing without god and religion. And this isn't someone I can easily cut out of my life, or else I would have long ago (and for more reasons than constantly badgering me about needing to change my ways and views and essentially fundamentally who I am).

 

[BilliardsBall]

This would be one of those questionable commandments I mentioned.

The difference between actual murder and getting angry enough to murder is that actual murder results in someone's death. Only someone who doesn't value human life would argue that the one is just as bad as the other.

I didn't argue that thought crimes and actual crimes are equally bad. I pointed out to you that the problem of evil lies in our hearts. We cannot achieve utopia/Heaven without being transformed--by Christ Jesus.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yes, Christians break the commandments mentioned very often. There is nothing illogical about it. Nobody is perfect, even Christians.

I never said all are perfect apart from Christ's transformative power. I did and do say that Christians break Bible regulations like "honor Shabbat, honor God, don't use God's name falsely" a heckuva lot less than atheists.

Even a cursory reading of the scriptures demonstrates that Christians are more adherent to Bible teachings than atheists. Atheists often go out of their way to flaunt NOT observing the Biblical statutes and precepts.

 

[BilliardsBall]

No anger. Just a reply to your comment about atheists being immoral. Did I accuse you of being angry when you wrote that? So where do you see anger in my defense of that?

I answered a theist who was telling us on another thread that atheists were aspiritual (his word) and I gave him an reply analogous to the one I gave you arguing that it was Christianity that had spirituality issues, not my worldview.

This is what I call soft bigotry. It's not expressed with any active hatred or malice - just what you consider true, but which is bigotry nevertheless. This is the same accusation that I made when you commented that atheists were incapable of loving their enemies.

I suspect neither of you felt that you were being derogatory, and possibly you were both surprised and offended to be disagreed with and called what you called atheists - immoral in your case, spiritually defective in the other.

I'm prepared to have analogous discussions in a number of other areas. Would you like to compare the Christian and secular humanist takes on truth, love, justice, or mercy? You'll never see me call Christianity defective in any of those areas unless you first post that our version is inferior to yours. At that point, you will see the counterargument.

Regarding your other accusations above, I did answer with knowledge. I compared two ethical systems and provided a fair amount of detail.

As far as inquiry, you don't answer the questions asked of you. You didn't address my most recent post to you except to say that you wouldn't address it. When we were discussing loving one's enemies, I described how I treated the last to people to act like enemies to me, asked you what you would do differently, and you never answered.

As for kindness, again, I don't know what you are talking about. You said that your Bible, which you believe, said that atheists were immoral, and I answered that I thought that the biblical system of ethics was inferior to the humanist one. How was that unkind? How were you any kinder?

It isn't necessary for you to answer any comment I direct to you or anybody else. As I have explained to you many times, that will always be interpreted as a concession. Its presumed that if you had an effective answer, that you would post it, and that when you ignore the comment or deflect from it as you have here, that you cannot and prefer to not.

It will also be considered bad faith disputation to make a claim, have it rebutted, ignore the rebuttal, and repeat the claim as if nothing had happened. There will be no need to rebut it a second time, but just to note that it has been done, provide a link to the refutation, and that the post still stands unchallenged and as the last word on the topic to date. You will always to be free and even encouraged to address that reply, but you needn't, and such bad faith disputation will be identified as such.

Fair enough? If you think not, please explain why.

So bring your best game to the forum. If it pleases you to make derogatory comments about atheists, expect a reply, and if you can, post which parts of the reply you agree with, and which parts you disagree with and why. Those are gentlemanly rules of discourse. It is the academic standard. It's the courtroom standard. It's the standard for judging formal debates. In every case, whoever the last plausible argument prevailed.

If you don't care for this type of give and take, I recommend leaving your atheophobia at the door. Many of us won't grant you free kicks at atheists.

If I had atheophobia I wouldn't respond hundreds of times a month to atheist's posts. I don't appreciate being called a bigot.

However, I'm aware that atheists don't like free kicks as you wrote, or any kicks at all, because they hover at a religions forum like mosquitoes, seeking to... well, you get my "bigoted" analogy.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I used the humanist method of deciding moral issues - rational ethics, which brings reason and empathy together to try to elucidate which societal rules give us the best society, which we define as the one that empowers individuals maximally, and rules for living our individual lives in a satisfying, upstanding, just, and kind way. You might know it as the Golden Rule.

Unlike some ethical systems that merely give lip service to it, rational ethics actually make it the basis of our moral theory. That's how it was determined that slavery was wrong. Christian abolitionists were the ones who accepted that thinking. Their opposition came from the Christians that did not, and who used their Bibles to defend that choice.



There you go again. Another derogatory comment, this time directed not just at atheists, but me personally.

My moral compass is none of your business, you are unaware of my values apart from the handful I have shared with you (more below), and I don't consider that somebody who gets his moral instruction out of a book is qualified to judge mine.

Also, you are resuming your bad faith disputation. You ignored a detailed rebuttal to your claim to a moral high ground for theists, then essentially repeated your claim.

My response is the same as before. You can see it again here if you care to. At this point, I have the last word on the matter. Are you content with that? If so, I'll assume that you cannot back up your claim.

Let's up the ante, since you don't feel like defending your atheophobic calumnies :

Blessed are the meek. Turn the other cheek. Love your enemies.

All bad advice:

• The meek are used. They are easily exploited. Humility, cooperation, being of service,and politeness are all praiseworthy deferential behaviors. Meekness is not. It is spinelessness, and represents a poverty or smallness of spirit. It's a form of cowardice, not a virtue as your Bible suggests.

• Turning the other cheek invites a second blow. My advice? Try to negotiate a peace if possible, or walk away if your attacker is uninterested. If unable to walk away, at least put up your fists to protect your face. Offering the other cheek a mistake.

• The best that enemies should hope for is that no revenge is exacted and that they are simply excluded from one's life.

You might throw in that it is good to be long-suffering and poor as well. Tell them that they will be rewarded after death if they are.

This is essentially deconstructing the Beatitudes, which on closer inspection, are easily seen to be a set of instructions for people to not resist being treated unfairly. Who gives advice like this to people that they care about? This is what you tell people whom you intend to exploit and hope that they will accept your exploitation without rising up.

This is what Constantine undoubtedly wanted from his subjects, and probably what he found so appealing about this particular religion. Confucius and Buddha didn't give advice like that. Their writings wouldn't be of any use to somebody like Constantine.

Jesus doesn't give bad advice. Atheists often do.

**The meek are used. They are easily exploited. Humility, cooperation, being of service,and politeness are all praiseworthy deferential behaviors. Meekness is not. It is spinelessness, and represents a poverty or smallness of spirit. It's a form of cowardice, not a virtue as your Bible suggests.

The meek are rewarded, however, above. Point two is that the Greek word used for meekness in the Sermon on the Mount refers to a bucking bronco that has been harnessed and trained! It is a person with great power whose is under the master's hand, strong yet submissive. You have one of those two qualities.

**Turning the other cheek invites a second blow. My advice? Try to negotiate a peace if possible, or walk away if your attacker is uninterested. If unable to walk away, at least put up your fists to protect your face. Offering the other cheek a mistake.

Only from ultra-aggressive people. When slapped on the right cheek from a right-handed person, one has been backhanded, insulted. If you think taking an insult in stride and simply saying, "words will never hurt me" (turning the other cheek) INVITES another insult, your problem is internal, not external with Christ's words here.

**The best that enemies should hope for is that no revenge is exacted and that they are simply excluded from one's life.

But we can do better than that, showing them love. It's like you never saw the movies Ghandi or Schindler's List--and these aren't even born again Christians!

Instead of saying "bad advice" why not just COME OUT and tell us all about how you think the Lord Jesus Christ was a horrible person. Get it off your chest--to GOD! Tell GOD you're annoyed at Him and stop telling forum friends. Then you and God can have it out.

 

[leibowde84]

I never said all are perfect apart from Christ's transformative power. I did and do say that Christians break Bible regulations like "honor Shabbat, honor God, don't use God's name falsely" a heckuva lot less than atheists.

Even a cursory reading of the scriptures demonstrates that Christians are more adherent to Bible teachings than atheists. Atheists often go out of their way to flaunt NOT observing the Biblical statutes and precepts.

Right, but there is nothing immoral about Atheists not following those commandments. They do not believe that God exists. Thus, any commandment demanding that they honor the sabbath, honor God, don't use God's name falsely wouldn't apply to them. They don't believe in God and thus don't believe that those specific commandments are legitimate.

In short, it is absurd to hold atheists responsible for commandments they feel are fraudulent. They have not been convinced that God exists.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I never said all are perfect apart from Christ's transformative power. I did and do say that Christians break Bible regulations like "honor Shabbat, honor God, don't use God's name falsely" a heckuva lot less than atheists.

Those "sleeping in on the weekend" atheists probably do better at keeping the Sabbath. Many, many Christians don't even know when that actually is. And what dishonors god more? Christians who only say and pretend to honor him, or atheists who don't even believe in him to honor or dishonor him?

If I had atheophobia I wouldn't respond hundreds of times a month to atheist's posts.

That's no different than a racist saying that of course they aren't racist because they have black friends.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Right, but there is nothing immoral about Atheists not following those commandments. They do not believe that God exists. Thus, any commandment demanding that they honor the sabbath, honor God, don't use God's name falsely wouldn't apply to them. They don't believe in God and thus don't believe that those specific commandments are legitimate.

In short, it is absurd to hold atheists responsible for commandments they feel are fraudulent. They have not been convinced that God exists.

Your argument is unusual, since God will hold everyone responsible for the commandments, but my argument was:

ACCORDING TO CHRISTIANITY, Christians are more moral than atheists.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

ACCORDING TO CHRISTIANITY, Christians are more moral than atheists.

And yet you can't prove that, or offer any shred of evidence to support it. At best, you throw out accusations towards people you do not know insisting they sin against their conscience.

 

[Muffled]

By my standards, I don't believe, I know such thinking is immoral. You may think you're concerned for people and trying to show love, but this mentality is the bane of millions of LBGT people around the world. It has parents disowning children and kicking them out on the streets, it has them being denied jobs and housing and health care, it restricts freedoms and liberties, and it's known for leading to beatings, murders, and executions.

I don't believe there is a direct correlation. We also believe sex outside of heterosexual marriage is a sin but how many of those people are going through the same thing.

 

[Muffled]

That's a statement of intolerance. The LGBT "lifestyle" is perfectly OK to secular humanists. We believe that morality comes from applying reason and empathy to the task of defining which behaviors are immoral. We can't find a reason to persecute or marginalize people for their sexual identities and preferences, and don't consider consulting an ancient holy book the proper way to decide what is moral and what is not.

I believe God is very intolerant and you will certainly find that out personally.

 

[Muffled]

By my standards, I don't believe, I know such thinking is immoral. You may think you're concerned for people and trying to show love, but this mentality is the bane of millions of LBGT people around the world. It has parents disowning children and kicking them out on the streets, it has them being denied jobs and housing and health care, it restricts freedoms and liberties, and it's known for leading to beatings, murders, and executions.

I believe my reply to It Aint Necessarily So covers it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't believe there is a direct correlation. We also believe sex outside of heterosexual marriage is a sin but how many of those people are going through the same thing.

Heterosexuals don't go through the same thing; they aren't called abominations in the Bible, the Bible doesn't say they should be put to death and their blood is on their hands, and heterosexuals are not berated and degraded the way LBGT people are. Heterosexual sex is just a sin, and no one attempts to use dangerous methods to "cure" it. Homosexual sex, however, is viewed and treated as worse.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I believe my reply to It Aint Necessarily So covers it.

Saying god is intolerant, don't you see that turns many away?

 

[LuisDantas]

I've read your posts. I have these suggestions and I hope they help:

Stop using the word 'respect' when you talk about beliefs. Beliefs are either true or false. You can't respect beliefs that you think are wrong but you can give people respect even when you disagree with them.

Stop trying to convince your relatives that they're wrong. That's a waste of time and energy. When they raise religion as a topic, suddenly realize that you have somewhere else to be.

Realize that you very little control over what others say or do to you; but you have absolute control of how you react to what others say or do to you. So, focus on self-control.

Out of curiosity: don't you think it would be better to pursue respectful relationships with those of divergent beliefs instead of settling for courting with arrogance while betting that some belief or another is "true" or "false"?