The Qur'an: Intentions vs. Effects

[ManSinha]

you need to learn from the well-grounded in knowledge

How will one know these individuals?

 

[icehorse]

I find that difficult to accept at best - the knowledge was revealed to Muhammad who was illiterate - as well as a human being
He conveyed that knowledge to others who wrote it down

In modern days when data passes through human touches rather than interfaces there is an element of variability that is introduced as well as potential for error

Square those two facts without invoking - "It must not be that way for the Qu'ran" and then we can talk further

Alright then, if we cannot agree that the Quran is perfect and easy to understand, then what? Are we forced to rely on Imams? What happens when Imams disagree - which they have done since the death of Muhammad?

It strikes me that over the last 1400 years, millions of lives have been lost due to people disagreeing about what the Quran means.

 

[dybmh]

That is part of the problem is it not?

It's complicated.

@Firemorphic , made a profound statement.

a book you don't read, a book that reads you.

Now to put that in context. Take a look at what I said below:

I very gently adjusted the statement from the original. The thread it comes from is answering the question is "Religion" useful. But my answer equally applies when asking is the "Qur'an" useful.

Because how a person [approaches the Qur'an], tells you a lot about that person. The [verses themselves individually may not be] useful in a straight forward obvious way. But how the person answers those questions is very useful.

When someone has potential to be immoral, dominant, and literally sees themselves as superior, their [approach to the Qur'an] will reflect that. In this case, the [verses themselves] aren't useful [to everyone] [the Qur'an] is still useful to me.

 

[ManSinha]

Alright then, if we cannot agree that the Quran is perfect and easy to understand, then what? Are we forced to rely on Imams? What happens when Imams disagree - which they have done since the death of Muhammad?

It strikes me that over the last 1400 years, millions of lives have been lost due to people disagreeing about what the Quran means.

@icehorse

I just wanted to be sure you saw what was under "Religion" in my title bar and take my comments with that perspective, please

 

[icehorse]

I think the part that is assumed both by Critics and Terrorists is that "perfect, unalterable, and timeless" means that each verse is literal and should be taken literally on its own.

I think that there are some very disturbing verses in the Qur'an if they are taken literally on their own. But limits are put on these verses as the Qur'an proceeds.

Literal interpretation is the cause of the problem. Both the Critics and the Terrorists agree on this literal interpretation. This means that both the Critics and the Terrorists have the same mindset when approaching the Qur'an.

If someone says: "perfect, unalterable, and timeless" I don't think that means each verse is literally true on its own.

Thoughts?

My first thought is that most people who read the Quran are not scholars. My second thought is that - for the last 1400 years - scholarly disagreements have led to enormous bloodshed.

My third thought is that it's fair for me to assess what messages a normal, non-scholar will get from the book. I'm a professional, technical editor, and we use cognitive science in assessing how books will be understood. One major concern I have about the Quran is that - over 500 times - it instructs Muslims to despise non-Muslims. Now the scholars can argue that each of those 500 occurrences has a specific context. For the sake of discussion, I'm happy to agree that each of the 500+ times that the Quran criticizes non-Muslims, it does so within a specific context.

500 specific, individual bits of context do NOT matter!

Human brains are designed to spot patterns and draw general conclusions. It's how we work. Any cognitive scientist worth their salt will tell you that a human brain - after reading the Quran - WILL ABSOLUTELY take away the message that Muslims should not trust non-Muslims. This is a core foundation of all propaganda, and I have to give the writers of the Quran credit for a solid understanding of creating and using propaganda.

I'd like to get feedback on this much before moving forward..

 

[icehorse]

@icehorse

I just wanted to be sure you saw what was under "Religion" in my title bar and take my comments with that perspective, please

I'd like to know more about what Sikh's believe! Can you add your perspective as we go?

 

[ManSinha]

Human brains are designed to spot patterns and draw general conclusions. It's how we work. Any cognitive scientist worth their salt will tell you that a human brain - after reading the Quran - WILL ABSOLUTELY take away the message that Muslims should not trust non-Muslims. This is a core foundation of all propaganda, and I have to give the writers of the Quran credit for a solid understanding of creating and using propaganda.

I think you hit the nail on the head sir - while in each and individual case - there are redeeming features but the number of times it happens does provide fuel to those who want to go find it - ironically enough it provides grist for the mill for both - people who embrace the compendium and those who oppose it

 

[ManSinha]

I'd like to know more about what Sikh's believe! Can you add your perspective as we go?

I have to take a break my dear sir but I shall leave you with one quote if our friend @dybmh will indulge me - happy to come back and discuss in a couple of hours

it is from the writings of the 10th Master - and here goes

 

[dybmh]

over 500 times - it instructs Muslims to despise non-Muslims.

@icehorse ,

Can we talk about this part? I think that there is a factual inaccuracy in what you said above. I'm sorry. If you are right, and you can show it, i will apologize; i will be embarrassed.

The important parts of your statement are the words "instructs" and "despise". Also the count "500".

Are you sure that these words are accurate? can you prove it?

500 is a lot. "instructs" is a strong word. "despise" is also a strong word.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

How will one know these individuals?

The Quran itself has verses that tells us among the ones who Allah gave the knowledge of the Book are, Muhammad, Ali, Hassan, Hussein. Allah pointed to Them, and then They showed that the verses of Quran alludes that The well-grounded in knowledge continues through the progeny of Muhammad in 12 imams, the last one of Them is the Mahdi.

 

[icehorse]

@icehorse ,

Can we talk about this part? I think that there is a factual inaccuracy in what you said above. I'm sorry. If you are right, and you can show it, i will apologize; i will be embarrassed.

The important parts of your statement are the words "instructs" and "despise". Also the count "500".

Are you sure that these words are accurate? can you prove it?

500 is a lot. "instructs" is a strong word. "despise" is also a strong word.

Here's a link to the list of 500+ verses:

An Inquiry Into Islam: Search results for intolerance

I guess I would ask you for your take on how faithful people interact with their scripture? It seems to me that if a person declares themselves to be of a certain faith, the implication is that they mostly agree with that faith's scripture. Maybe not every little detail, but with the basic ideas. Yes? No?

 

[icehorse]

The Quran itself has verses that tells us among the ones who Allah gave the knowledge of the Book are, Muhammad, Ali, Hassan, Hussein. Allah pointed to Them, and then They showed that the verses of Quran alludes that The well-grounded in knowledge continues through the progeny of Muhammad in 12 imams, the last one of Them is the Mahdi.

I'm not sure I'm understanding you, but let me try to restate what I think you're saying: I think you're saying that in 2019, we should be relying on top Imams to tell us what the Quran's real messages are?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I'm not sure I'm understanding you, but let me try to restate what I think you're saying: I think you're saying that in 2019, we should be relying on top Imams to tell us what the Quran's real messages are?

Not at all!
The Quran verses 'points' to 12 Imams.
According to recorded traditions which is in Shia Islam sources, there 12 Imams after Muhammad, who people are to refer to them to learn what Quran says. 11 of them, already appeared, which the 11th One left the world in the year 260 A.H (roughly year 850 A.D). These 11 Imams, have already interpreted many of the verses of Quran which are available in the recorded traditions. In some cases, they did not interpret some verses, as they said, when the 12 Imam appears, He will interpret for them, as these verses interpretations should not be revealed earlier.

Now, as regards to the 12th Imam, Bahais believe, the Bab is this Person. (Not to mention that, most of the early Bahais, were Muslims, who recognized the Bab, as the 12th Imam.

 

[dybmh]

Here's a link to the list of 500+ verses:

An Inquiry Into Islam: Search results for intolerance

I guess I would ask you for your take on how faithful people interact with their scripture? It seems to me that if a person declares themselves to be of a certain faith, the implication is that they mostly agree with that faith's scripture. Maybe not every little detail, but with the basic ideas. Yes? No?

OK. This is good. We needed to catch up to each other. I appreciate that you posted this link, but...

The link you provided is listed in post#2 of this thread.

I have been going thru the document. it is deeply flawed. **DEEPLY**.

If the document were accurate and there were actually 500+ occurrences in the Qur'an where Muslims are "Instructed" to "Despise" non-Muslims, then you would have a very good point. And I would need to adjust my pro-Islam bias in order to maintain intellectual and academic integrity.

However, the document is not accurate. It is biased and misleading. It is propaganda itself.

Even if it wasn't. I'm very sorry. Even if the document was 100% accurate in what it says. It doesn't say what you are saying. The document doesn't say that Muslims are instructed to despise non-Muslims.

I am sorry. The document you provided is very very weak evidence for what you are saying.

And that is only if you take the document as accurate. And it's not.

I think you need to find a new source.

 

[icehorse]

OK. This is good. We needed to catch up to each other. I appreciate that you posted this link, but...

The link you provided is listed in post#2 of this thread.

I have been going thru the document. it is deeply flawed. **DEEPLY**.

If the document were accurate and there were actually 500+ occurrences in the Qur'an where Muslims are "Instructed" to "Despise" non-Muslims, then you would have a very good point. And I would need to adjust my pro-Islam bias in order to maintain intellectual and academic integrity.

However, the document is not accurate. It is biased and misleading. It is propaganda itself.

Even if it wasn't. I'm very sorry. Even if the document was 100% accurate in what it says. It doesn't say what you are saying. The document doesn't say that Muslims are instructed to despise non-Muslims.

I am sorry. The document you provided is very very weak evidence for what you are saying.

And that is only if you take the document as accurate. And it's not.

I think you need to find a new source.

Can you be specific about your criticism of the list? I have not gone over every one of the 500 verses, but I have done spot checking and so far it's all checked out. Now I would agree that the verses might not exactly quote what's in your particular translation of the Quran, but to me the gist of the messages is consistently correct.

Let me also add, that when I read the book cover to cover - a process that took me many weeks, I was struck by how much of the book is devoted to criticizing non-Muslims. So from a summary perspective, when this website said that there are over 500 occurrences, that was consistent with my experience reading the book.

 

[England my lionheart]

What are your thoughts regarding the Qur'an's intentions and its effects globally?

The Qurans intention was to unite the tribes but there are two parts of the Quran,the meccan quran which was all love and tollerance and the Medina Quran which is about intollerance ,war booty which includes slavery ,subdugations and a focus on the Jews.

The surahs in the Quran are not in chronological order but if you read the meccan quran and the later surahs written in Medina you can see the difference and intention of the Quran,in the Medina surahs Muhammed had no money so a surah sanctioning robbery with a reward of war booty cured that problem.

So two parts to the Quran,first part peace and love,second violence and intollerance.

 

[dybmh]

Can you be specific about your criticism of the list?

Of course. A good example is in Post#9.

 

[dybmh]

The Qurans intention was to unite the tribes but there are two parts of the Quran,the meccan quran which was all love and tollerance and the Medina Quran which is about intollerance ,war booty which includes slavery ,subdugations and a focus on the Jews.

The surahs in the Quran are not in chronological order but if you read the meccan quran and the later surahs written in Medina you can see the difference and intention of the Quran,in the Medina surahs Muhammed had no money so a surah sanctioning robbery with a reward of war booty cured that problem.

So two parts to the Quran,first part peace and love,second violence and intollerance.

Do you happen to know when the two different Qur'ans were written? Were they written at the same time?

 

[England my lionheart]

Do you happen to know when the two different Qur'ans were written? Were they written at the same time?

The meccan ones were first,if I get time later I'll post them.

 

[icehorse]

Of course. A good example is in Post#9.

Good - something to work with! Getting back to the cognitive science, I would say that the summarized version is all that most people would remember. So, while it is a summary, to me it's a fair one. If you don't agree, can you explain why you think it's not a fair summary?