Ajarn
Member
It is very much a problem if the book is about total submission to its word, then the word talk of Murder and Slavery.
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The Qur'an: Intentions vs. Effects
- Thread starter dybmh
- Start date
It is very much a problem if the book is about total submission to its word, then the word talk of Murder and Slavery.
ManSinha
Well-Known Member
Not sure that came out the way you meant it - the book itself does not fly into the twin towers - people who claim they are following the teachings therein, do - so Yes the book has an effect - that is not in question
Here is a selection of Medinan sūrahs for your consideration:
Referring to Jews and Christians:
‘Those who believe, and do good deeds, are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. Allāh is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7-8).
Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) created human beings as equals, who are to be distinguished from each other only on the basis of their faith and piety. He tells us: ‘People, We created you all from a single man and a single woman, and made you into races and tribes so that you should know one another. In Allāh’s eyes, the most honoured of you are the ones most mindful of Him: Allāh is all knowing, all aware.’ (Al-Hujurat: 13).
Not only are human beings created as equals, they are given different paths to follow:
‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).
The message is clear: Whatever path we happen to be on – whatever law we happen to follow – we are each of us called to do good.
People are free to choose whatever religion they wish (or to have no religion at all):
‘There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in Allāh has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break. Allāh is all hearing and all knowing. Allāh is the ally of those who believe: He brings them out of the depths of darkness and into the light.’ (Al-Baqara: 256-257).
Muhammad Abdel Haleem writes: ‘This verse begins with the phrase lā ikrāha fī’l-dīn (there is no compulsion in religion). It is introduced by ‘lā’, the particle of absolute negation in Arabic, which negates absolutely the notion of compulsion in religion. Religion in the Qur’an is based on choice, and true choice is based on knowledge and making matters clear for people to choose. The rest of the ‘there is no compulsion in religion’ verse gives reasons justifying and explaining this.’ (‘Exploring the Qur'an: Context and Impact’).
Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says this: ‘For the (Muslim) believers, the Jews, the Sabians, and the Christians – those who believe in Allāh and the Last Day and do good deeds – there is no fear: they will not grieve.’ (Al-Ma’ida 69).
Puritans claim that this verse has been abrogated by the following:
‘If anyone seeks a religion other than complete devotion to Allāh, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’ (Al‘Imran: 85).
The words ‘complete devotion’ are a rendition of ‘islam’; a word that is never capitalised in Arabic. This word can also be rendered ‘submission’.
Puritans take the word ‘religion’, and then capitalise ‘islam’; giving the impression that the verse refers to that particular Faith alone. They argue that Islam is the only religion acceptable to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). At the same time, they claim (correctly) that Islam is not merely a ‘religion’, but a way of life. But so are Christianity and Judaism (and all other religions, too, of course). And the best ‘way of life’ is one spent in complete devotion to God.
Al‘Imran: 85 can safely be rendered: ‘If anyone seeks a way of life other than complete devotion to Allāh, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’
Consider this:
‘….those who believe in Allāh and the Last Day and do good deeds – there is no fear: they will not grieve.’ This is Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla)’s solemn promise. It has not been abrogated, since He does not renege on His promises.
Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says this: ‘Spend in Allāh’s cause: do not contribute to your destruction with your own hands, but do good, for Allāh loves those who do good.’ (Al-Baqara: 195); and this: ‘Allāh loves those who keep their pledges and are mindful of Him……who give, both in prosperity and adversity, who restrain their anger and pardon people – Allāh loves those who do good…….. so pardon them and ask forgiveness for them. Consult with them about matters, then, when you have decided on a course of action, put your trust in Allāh: Allāh loves those who put their trust in Him.’ (Al‘Imran: 76; 134; 159): and this: ‘Allāh loves those who seek to purify themselves.’ (Al-Tawba: 108).
All people, regardless of their religion – or none – are required to spread justice, compassion and mercy on earth; yes, and beauty too. All who behave in this manner are loved by Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).
Concerning Jihad:
In his introduction to the ‘Book of Jihad and Expedition of Sahih Muslim’ the translator (Abd-al-Hamid Siddiqui) makes the following comment:
‘The word Jihad is derived from the verb jahada which means: ‘he exerted himself’. Thus literally, Jihad means exertion, striving; but in a juridico-religious sense, it signifies the exertion of one's power to the utmost of one's capacity in the cause of Allah. Thus Jihad in Islam is not an act of violence directed indiscriminately against the non-Muslims; it is the name given to an all-round struggle which a Muslim should launch against evil in whatever form or shape it appears.’
(End of quote).
The Qur’an defines ‘jihad’ as: ‘Striving, with one’s self and one’s money, in the cause of Allāh’:
‘Do you consider giving water to pilgrims and tending the Sacred Mosque to be equal to the deeds of those who believe in Allāh and the Last Day and who strive in Allāh’s path? They are not equal in Allāh’s eyes. Allāh does not guide such benighted people. Those who believe, who migrated and strove hard in Allāh’s way with their possessions and their persons, are in Allāh’s eyes much higher in rank; it is they who will triumph; and their Lord gives them the good news of His mercy and pleasure, Gardens where they will have lasting bliss and where they will remain for ever: truly, there is a tremendous reward with Allāh.’ (Al-Tawba: Verses 19-22); and again: ‘When a sura is revealed (saying): “Believe in Allāh and strive hard alongside His Messenger,” their wealthy ask your permission (to be exempt), saying: “Allow us to stay behind with the others”. They prefer to be with those who stay behind. Their hearts have been sealed: they do not comprehend. But the Messenger and those who believe with him strive hard with their possessions and their persons. The best things belong to them; it is they who will prosper. Allāh has prepared Gardens graced with flowing streams for them and there they will stay. That is the supreme triumph.’ (Al-Tawba: Verses 86-89); and again: ‘The desert Arabs say: “We have faith.” (Prophet), tell them: “You do not have faith. What you should say instead is, ‘We have submitted,’ for faith has not yet entered your hearts.” If you obey Allāh and His Messenger, He will not diminish any of your deeds: He is most forgiving and most merciful. The true believers are the ones who have faith in Allāh and His Messenger and leave all doubt behind, the ones who have struggled with their possessions and their persons in Allah’s way: they are the ones who are true.’ ((Al-Hujurat: Verses 14-15).
We see that we must strive in Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla)’s path; or in His way; or in His cause. But what does this mean?
His path; His way; His cause; each of these means the same thing: That we should strive to uphold His commandments, and to turn away - in condemnation - from all He has forbidden. We should strive to excel in prayer; in charity; in good deeds of all kinds; in standing up for what is true against what is false; and yes, in fighting when we have to.
But what of warfare?
According to Abd-al-Hamid Siddiqui:
‘Qital fi sabilillah (fighting in the way of Allah) is only one aspect of Jihad. Even this qital in Islam is not an act of mad brutality. It has its material and moral functions, i. e. self-preservation and the preservation of the moral order in the world. The verdict of all religious and ethical philosophies - ancient and modern - justifies war on moral grounds. When one nation is assaulted by the ambitions and cupidity of another, the doctrine of non-resistance is anti-social, as it involves non-assertion, not only of one's own rights, but of those of others who need protection against the forces of tyranny and oppression.’
(End of quote).
Muslims are obliged to protect themselves, and all who seek their protection. They must protect the defenceless; women; children; and the old from privation, suffering and moral peril. According to the Shari’a, fighting in a ‘just war’ is a duty (as it is in all other forms of state governance, whether religious or secular).
‘Let those of you who are willing to trade the life of this world for the life to come, fight in Allāh’s way. To anyone who fights in Allāh’s way, whether killed or victorious, We shall give a great reward. Why should you not fight in Allah’s cause and for those oppressed men, women, and children who cry out: “Lord, rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors! By Your grace, give us a protector and give us a helper!”?’ (Al-Nisa’: Verses 74-75).
The Qur’an advocates opposition to aggression and oppression. However, war is allowed ONLY as an act of self defence, and NEVER as an act of aggression:
‘Those who have been attacked are permitted to take up arms because they have been wronged – Allāh has the power to help them – those who have been driven unjustly from their homes only for saying: “Our Lord is Allāh.” If Allāh did not repel some people by means of others, many monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, where Allāh’s name is much invoked, would have been destroyed. Allāh is sure to help those who help His cause – Allāh is strong and mighty…..’ (Al-Hajj: Verses 39-40); and again: ‘Fight in Allāh’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits: Allāh does not love those who overstep the limits. Kill them wherever you encounter them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, for persecution is more serious than killing. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them – this is what such disbelievers deserve - but if they stop, then Allāh is most forgiving and merciful. Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship is devoted to Allāh. If they cease hostilities, there can be no (further) hostility, except towards aggressors.’ (Al-Baqara: Verses 190-193).
Two lines in these verses require clarification.
‘………………but do not overstep the limits’. The scholars agree that the Arabic command ‘la ta tadu’ prohibits the starting of hostilities; fighting non-combatants; and making a disproportionate response to aggression.
‘Kill them wherever you encounter them’. The Muslims were concerned as to whether it was permitted to retaliate when attacked within the sacred precincts in Mecca (when on pilgrimage). In this line, they are given permission to fight back wherever they encounter their attackers, in the precinct or outside it.
Whenever possible, war is to be avoided; even when preparations have been made:
‘Prepare whatever forces you (believers) can muster, including warhorses, to frighten off Allāh’s enemies and yours, and warn others unknown to you but known to Allāh. Whatever you give in Allāh’s cause will be repaid to you in full, and you will not be wronged. But if they incline towards peace, you (Prophet) must also incline towards it, and put your trust in Allāh: He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing.’ (Al-Anfal: Verses 60-61).
And this from Abd-al-Hamid Siddiqui:
‘So great is the respect for humanly feelings in Islam that even the wanton destruction of enemy's crops or property is strictly forbidden. The righteous Caliphs followed closely the teachings of Allāh, and those of His Apostle, in letter and spirit. The celebrated address which the first Caliph Abu Bakr (Allāh be pleased with him) gave to his army is permeated with the noble spirit with which war in Islam is permitted. He said: "Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone"’
There are some who render ‘jihad’ as a ‘holy war’. This is not possible, for the words 'holy war would be rendered 'al-harb al-muqadas' a phrase that does not exist in classical Arabic; the language of the Qur'an. According to the Qur’an no war is holy; not under any circumstance.
Under no circumstance are Muslims permitted to use violence against the innocent. This is a great sin; and Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) does not advocate sin:
‘Yet when (these people) do something disgraceful, they say: “We found our forefathers doing this,” and: “Allāh has commanded us to do this.” Say (Prophet): “Allāh does not command disgraceful deeds. How can you say about Allāh things that you do not know (to be true)?” Say: “My Lord commands righteousness. Direct your worship straight to Him wherever you pray; call on Him; devote your religion entirely to Him. Just as He first created you, so you will come back (to life) again.”’ (Al-A‘raf: Verses 28-29); and again: ‘The servants of the Lord of Mercy are those who walk humbly on the earth, and who, when the foolish address them, reply: “Peace”; those who spend the night bowed down or standing, worshipping their Lord, who plead: “Our Lord, turn away from us the suffering of Hell, for it is a dreadful torment to suffer! It is an evil home, a foul resting place!”. They are those who are neither wasteful nor niggardly when they spend, but keep to a just balance; those who never invoke any other deity beside Allāh, nor take a life, which Allāh has made sacred, except in the pursuit of justice….’ (Al-Furqan: Verses 63-68); and again: ‘Do not take life, which Allāh has made sacred, except by right: if anyone is killed wrongfully, We have given authority to the defender of his rights, but he should not be excessive in taking life, for he is already aided (by Allah).’ (Al-Nahl: Verse 33).
The prohibition against killing the innocent has always been the law of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla): ‘We decreed to the Children of Israel that if anyone kills a person – unless in retribution for murder or spreading corruption in the land – it is as if he kills all mankind, while if any saves a life it is as if he saves the lives of all mankind. Our messengers came to them with clear signs, but many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.’ (Al-Ma’ida: Verse 32).
Consider the following. They are not mere rules; they are the Laws of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) – and any Muslim who breaks them, or who – being a commander – permits others to break them, will be held accountable on the Day of Judgement.
According to Abd-al-Hamid Siddiqui:
‘Qital fi sabilillah (fighting in the way of Allah) is only one aspect of Jihad. Even this qital in Islam is not an act of mad brutality. It has its material and moral functions, i. e. self-preservation and the preservation of the moral order in the world. The verdict of all religious and ethical philosophies - ancient and modern - justifies war on moral grounds. When one nation is assaulted by the ambitions and cupidity of another, the doctrine of non-resistance is anti-social, as it involves non-assertion, not only of one's own rights, but of those of others who need protection against the forces of tyranny and oppression.’
(End of quote).
Muslims are obliged to protect themselves, and all who seek their protection. They must protect the defenceless; women; children; and the old from privation, suffering and moral peril. According to the Shari’a, fighting in a ‘just war’ is a duty (as it is in all other forms of state governance, whether religious or secular).
‘Let those of you who are willing to trade the life of this world for the life to come, fight in Allāh’s way. To anyone who fights in Allāh’s way, whether killed or victorious, We shall give a great reward. Why should you not fight in Allah’s cause and for those oppressed men, women, and children who cry out: “Lord, rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors! By Your grace, give us a protector and give us a helper!”?’ (Al-Nisa’: Verses 74-75).
The Qur’an advocates opposition to aggression and oppression. However, war is allowed ONLY as an act of self defence, and NEVER as an act of aggression:
‘Those who have been attacked are permitted to take up arms because they have been wronged – Allāh has the power to help them – those who have been driven unjustly from their homes only for saying: “Our Lord is Allāh.” If Allāh did not repel some people by means of others, many monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, where Allāh’s name is much invoked, would have been destroyed. Allāh is sure to help those who help His cause – Allāh is strong and mighty…..’ (Al-Hajj: Verses 39-40); and again: ‘Fight in Allāh’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits: Allāh does not love those who overstep the limits. Kill them wherever you encounter them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, for persecution is more serious than killing. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them – this is what such disbelievers deserve - but if they stop, then Allāh is most forgiving and merciful. Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship is devoted to Allāh. If they cease hostilities, there can be no (further) hostility, except towards aggressors.’ (Al-Baqara: Verses 190-193).
Two lines in these verses require clarification.
‘………………but do not overstep the limits’. The scholars agree that the Arabic command ‘la ta tadu’ prohibits the starting of hostilities; fighting non-combatants; and making a disproportionate response to aggression.
‘Kill them wherever you encounter them’. The Muslims were concerned as to whether it was permitted to retaliate when attacked within the sacred precincts in Mecca (when on pilgrimage). In this line, they are given permission to fight back wherever they encounter their attackers, in the precinct or outside it.
Whenever possible, war is to be avoided; even when preparations have been made:
‘Prepare whatever forces you (believers) can muster, including warhorses, to frighten off Allāh’s enemies and yours, and warn others unknown to you but known to Allāh. Whatever you give in Allāh’s cause will be repaid to you in full, and you will not be wronged. But if they incline towards peace, you (Prophet) must also incline towards it, and put your trust in Allāh: He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing.’ (Al-Anfal: Verses 60-61).
And this from Abd-al-Hamid Siddiqui:
‘So great is the respect for humanly feelings in Islam that even the wanton destruction of enemy's crops or property is strictly forbidden. The righteous Caliphs followed closely the teachings of Allāh, and those of His Apostle, in letter and spirit. The celebrated address which the first Caliph Abu Bakr (Allāh be pleased with him) gave to his army is permeated with the noble spirit with which war in Islam is permitted. He said: "Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone"’
There are some who render ‘jihad’ as a ‘holy war’. This is not possible, for the words 'holy war would be rendered 'al-harb al-muqadas' a phrase that does not exist in classical Arabic; the language of the Qur'an. According to the Qur’an no war is holy; not under any circumstance.
Under no circumstance are Muslims permitted to use violence against the innocent. This is a great sin; and Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) does not advocate sin:
‘Yet when (these people) do something disgraceful, they say: “We found our forefathers doing this,” and: “Allāh has commanded us to do this.” Say (Prophet): “Allāh does not command disgraceful deeds. How can you say about Allāh things that you do not know (to be true)?” Say: “My Lord commands righteousness. Direct your worship straight to Him wherever you pray; call on Him; devote your religion entirely to Him. Just as He first created you, so you will come back (to life) again.”’ (Al-A‘raf: Verses 28-29); and again: ‘The servants of the Lord of Mercy are those who walk humbly on the earth, and who, when the foolish address them, reply: “Peace”; those who spend the night bowed down or standing, worshipping their Lord, who plead: “Our Lord, turn away from us the suffering of Hell, for it is a dreadful torment to suffer! It is an evil home, a foul resting place!”. They are those who are neither wasteful nor niggardly when they spend, but keep to a just balance; those who never invoke any other deity beside Allāh, nor take a life, which Allāh has made sacred, except in the pursuit of justice….’ (Al-Furqan: Verses 63-68); and again: ‘Do not take life, which Allāh has made sacred, except by right: if anyone is killed wrongfully, We have given authority to the defender of his rights, but he should not be excessive in taking life, for he is already aided (by Allah).’ (Al-Nahl: Verse 33).
The prohibition against killing the innocent has always been the law of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla): ‘We decreed to the Children of Israel that if anyone kills a person – unless in retribution for murder or spreading corruption in the land – it is as if he kills all mankind, while if any saves a life it is as if he saves the lives of all mankind. Our messengers came to them with clear signs, but many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.’ (Al-Ma’ida: Verse 32).
Consider the following. They are not mere rules; they are the Laws of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) – and any Muslim who breaks them, or who – being a commander – permits others to break them, will be held accountable on the Day of Judgement.
It is forbidden to start – or to participate in – a war of aggression.
It is forbidden to harm, in any way, non-combatants; women; children; the old; the sick; and those enemy combatants who no longer wish to fight, or who are prisoners of war.
It is forbidden to destroy property; homes; churches; synagogues; mosques; and so on.
It is forbidden to destroy crops or livestock, or to poison wells.
Please allow these Laws to soak into you; and then ask yourself: What would the world be like if these Laws were written into the Constitution of every nation state; and into the Standing Orders of every soldier, marine, airman (or woman) and matelot; and not just written down, but complied with….from this very day, and for all time?
Ask yourself: What would the world be like if every person – every person, mind you – refused to act aggressively towards another; refused to harm another in any way whatsoever; refused to steal or destroy the property of another?
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
it come out the way i intended, It is not the teaching in the Qur'an that is evil, it is the action of those who do not understand the teaching that is evil. if you see it say, you shall kill, does it mean you should do it? No ofcourse not.
It's not fair at all. Here's why.
The document gives this example:
"Believers must retaliate. Those who transgress will have a painful doom. 2:178"
Here is the text of 2:178
"O you who have believed, prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But whoever overlooks from his brother anything, then there should be a suitable follow-up and payment to him with good conduct. This is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy. But whoever transgresses after that will have a painful punishment."
The claim from the document does not fairly represent the verse.
The document says Believer's **must** retaliate.
The verse describes a legal liability.
Also the word "retaliate". This would mean each individual should take matters into their own hands.
The verse says the recourse is legal.
So the very first sentence from the example given, the document is 100% false. An accurate representation of the verse 2:178 summarized would be:
"Believers, there is legal punishment for murders." NOT "Believers must retaliate."
saying that Qur'an 2:178 says "Believers must retaliate" is a false statement. Not just semantically, but it completely changes the meaning of the statement. They are functional opposites.
The purpose of legal retribution is so that people do not take matters in their own hands and execute their own personal version of justice on others.
And this is the problem we see with Terrorists. Terrorists execute their own warped version of justice.
This verse 2:178 prescribes legal retribution, not personal retaliation. They are functional opposites.
That is the 1st problem that makes the document deeply flawed.
The next big problem is omission. These words are completely missing in the documents flawed representation of Qur'an 2:178.
"But whoever overlooks from his brother anything, then there should be a suitable follow-up and payment to him with good conduct. This is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy."
By omitting this part, the document removes something that is merciful and forgiving from the middle of the verse. This is important because it shows bias and a fault in faithful representation of the verse. It would have been fair and accurate to include some short summary of this part of the verse, example below:
"Unfairness of any amount should be repaid in kindness"
Because of this omission, the document is biased because it omits in its entirety an example of how the Qur'an encourages kindness and fair repayment. Omitting this demonstrates that the document is deeply flawed lacking academic integrity.
3rd, the document says, "Those who transgress will have a painful doom" Qur'an 2:178 does not say all transgressors. And it does not say the word "Doom". This is a gross miss-translation and completely changes the meaning of the verse.
The verse says the transgressors are the believers from the omitted section. The document is misleading the reader that the Qur'an 2:178 says that all transgressors will have a painful doom. That is false. The Qur'an 2:178 does not say that at all. Not even close.
So there are 3 reasons why the document is deeply flawed on how it speaks about Qur'an 2:178.
- It changes the meaning of the beginning of the verse.
- It omits the part in the middle that encourages fairness and kindness.
- It changes the subject and the adds the word doom at the end of the verse.
However, even if you are looking at the document as a summary; the summary is completely false. The summary in the document is not fair. it changes the meaning in three ways as listed above.
A fair summary would be:
"Believers: There is legal punishment for murderer. Debt should be repaid fairly and kindly. Those who don't will have a painful punishment"
Compare that to:
"Believers must retaliate. Those who transgress will have a painful doom."
And my friend, Icehorse, that is just 1 statement out of 500+.
When I spot checked this document. This document did this repeatedly over and over and over again.
I am sorry. If you would like to show that the Qur'an "500+ times - Instructs Muslims to despise Non-Muslims" ( your words ), I think you need to find another source.
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For the sake of discussion, let's say that you are completely correct about 2:178. It's number 30 on the list of 527. So should we assume that the first 29 are fair summaries? If so, then should we conclude that 1/30th of the list is wrong? I'd be happy to grant you that. For the sake of discussion, let's say 1/2 the list is wrong (I don't that's the case, but for discussion purposes).
That would still leave us with 263 occurrences. That's WAY more than enough for a human brain to spot a pattern, that pattern being that the Quran instructs Muslims to despise non-Muslims.
T
I think at this point, i would rather spend the time, apply myself to the document you are using as evidence and see for myself how many verses in the Qur'an actually "instructs Muslims to despise Non-muslims".
If you want to bring another source or another point to discuss, Im happy to. I do appreciate your input and your point of view. It's just this one document... I'm sorry... I just can't follow your conclusion or your assumption about it without more data.
I dont know man...
I think at this point, i would rather spend the time, apply myself to the document you are using as evidence and see for myself how many verses in the Qur'an actually "instructs Muslims to despise Non-muslims".
If you want to bring another source or another point to discuss, Im happy to. I do appreciate your input and your point of view. It's just this one document... I'm sorry... I just can't follow your conclusion or your assumption about it without more data.
I just spent less than 5 minutes looking at just the first few pages of the Quran and made this summary list. Remember this is just maybe the first 1% of the book - probably less than 1%. I came up with this very, quick, very terse summary of the Quran discussing nonMuslims:
1.1 - god is angry
2.6 - they won't believe
2.7 - their hearts are sealed
2.8 - they are hypocrits
2.9 - they are deceivers
2.10 - their hearts are diseased
2.11 - they are liars
2.12 - they make mischief
2.13 - they are fools
2.14 - they are mockers
2.15 - allah mocks them
2.16 - they will have no profit
2.17 - they are in darkness
2.18 - they are deaf. dumb, and blind
2.19 - allah will gather them
2.20 - allan can blind them
2.24 - they will go to hell
Audie
Veteran Member
I think ot is a fraud with very ill effects everywhere it is adopted.
Audie
Veteran Member
Ah, yes, holy bigotry. Charming.
So, what's funny is, I totally read your reply as "I think O.T. ( Old Testament ) is a fraud..."
But now I'm thinking it was just a typo..
But really you probably agree with both statements: "it is a fraud, and O.T. is a fraud."
And so, i feel like I just gawt a 2-for-1. It's like Audie's replies are on sale today.
Audie
Veteran Member
So, what's funny is, I totally read your reply as "I think O.T. ( Old Testament ) is a fraud..."
But now I'm thinking it was just a typo..
But really you probably agree with both statements: "it is a fraud, and O.T. is a fraud."
And so, i feel like I just gawt a 2-for-1. It's like Audie's replies are on sale today.
Ha. You said it for me. But kinda got it wrong.
Do not try to be a Audie, there can only be
one. (Me)
The bible is too much a mixture of fact fantasy
folk wisdom and magic reality to allow for a
single-word description like "fraud".
Right.
Who is the "they"? Non-believers. What's a non-believer? Someone who has been shown the truth but chooses to ignore it.
Arguably, real non-believers, are very rare. A non-believer is not the same as a non-Muslim.
Also, if you keep reading, a Muslim must give a non-believer a chance to become a believer. This means... no Terrorism is allowed. None, zero.
Also... The beginning of the Qur'an is establishing common ground. Imagine trying to make your case for peace and cooperation between a bunch of Independent Pirates on the open seas. The first task... get into their heads; establish common ground; then slowly carefully change their minds.
That's what is happening at the beginning of the Qur'an. That same pattern is reflected throughout. Whenever there is a verse that seems to condone immoral behavior it is limited and softened shortly there after.
But for people who want to believe that the Qur'an supports violence, both Terrorists and American Political Right-wing Conservatives, there is plenty in the beginning to fuel their misconceptions.
Icehorse... if you take a look at the document you originally posted, the one that you were using to say that 500+ times the Qur'an instructs Muslims to despise non-Muslims: you will notice a pattern. Over half the references are at the beginning. After that, each surah has under 6 references, most of the Surah's have 2 or 3 references each. Note: those are miss-quotes and misleading biased statements. Those are the best a biased propagandist could come up with against the Qur'an.
Even if I agree with the document you posted, and I don't, the document supports my claim that the beginning of the Qur'an is the opening argument for a much larger argument.
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I would never...
@icehorse
AND
I'm sorry, but I have to bring up the hypocrisy factor...
There is a chapter in the Deuteronomy that is so so much worse than anything you have listed.
You focused on one Surah, but even if you go thru the whole Qur'an, I don't think that there is anything in the Qur'an anywhere that even comes close to what is said in Deuteronomy about Jewish people who do not follow the law.
If you want to complain about a book, to be fair and balanced, look at the Old Testament.
Not only that, it goes past Deuteronomy, the book of Amos. Also very harsh on Hypocrisy.
I think it's important to be fair. Compared to the Old Testament, the Qur'an is actually not that bad.
So if you take the Qur'an off the table as a root cause, And That is where this discussion should go...
If It's not the Qur'an; if it's not the book:
So...
I ask you, and anyone. If it's not in the Qur'an, and in fact Terrorism is forbidden in the Qur'an:
What is going on???
AND
I'm sorry, but I have to bring up the hypocrisy factor...
There is a chapter in the Deuteronomy that is so so much worse than anything you have listed.
You focused on one Surah, but even if you go thru the whole Qur'an, I don't think that there is anything in the Qur'an anywhere that even comes close to what is said in Deuteronomy about Jewish people who do not follow the law.
If you want to complain about a book, to be fair and balanced, look at the Old Testament.
Not only that, it goes past Deuteronomy, the book of Amos. Also very harsh on Hypocrisy.
I think it's important to be fair. Compared to the Old Testament, the Qur'an is actually not that bad.
So if you take the Qur'an off the table as a root cause, And That is where this discussion should go...
If It's not the Qur'an; if it's not the book:
So...
I ask you, and anyone. If it's not in the Qur'an, and in fact Terrorism is forbidden in the Qur'an:
What is going on???
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Well the Quran is inconsistent, so sometimes it likes Jews and Christians and sometimes it does not. I would say that non-believers - depending on which verse you're reading - could fall into any of the categories you described above.
And, I'm not talking about terrorism.
And, I agree with you that other scripture is also horrific
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Been looking at a YouTube channel
owned by a former Muslim
He has interesting videos
and jaw dropping revelations that
Muslims know but non Muslims don't
Apostate Prophet
You could also give the same argument for the declaration of human rights.
I can only see human hands at work with these religious books,they are powerful tools that have been used to great effect,not just the Quran but the Bible too,that's all just my opinion though.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
I have not gotten hold of a Quran.
But somebody who was a former Muslim says
"The Quran, which is believed to be the complete and perfect word of Allah, presents a very confusing narrative about Mary. Let's examine it and confront Islam."
Have you noticed what he is pointing out?
"Who wrote the Quran? Was it Allah? Mohammed? His invisible friend Gabriel? His insecurities? Was it a sand-collecting boy called Momo? Let's see."
What do you think about these?