The Quran confirms parts of the Bible.

[firedragon]

I already gave you a link.

This is another link that has done a very good job, and shows when this idea started among Muslims:

Islam teaches the Torah is corrupted / tahrif, but what does that mean? | Judaism and Islam – comparing the similarities between Judaism and Islam


Look at the dates provided. All the best on your investigation of truth

Another idea that became a dominant idea among Muslims later, is the finality of Islam. That was also an addition to Islam. You can see that from wiki. It gives a derail on the meaning of Khatam, or seal of Prophets. Not all Muslims were interpreting it as finality of Revelation. These ideas became dominant in Islam, just as the idea of Jesus being God, or three God in one God, became dominant in Christianity as time went on. I hope you know what I mean, when I say religions change overtime. But we all like to think our religion is always perfect. It is just not logical

InvestigateTruth.

DO you realise that you refuted your self?

You said : Islamic scholars after 200 years started saying that the Bible is corrupted, but not before.
Then : You gave a link that shows the said it in the first 50 years quoting Ibn Abbas.

 

[2ndpillar]

No need to go further.

You think Muhammed and Mecca are both Mythical right?

There was no world trade center in present day Mecca of Eastern Arabia with canals and fruit orchards in the 7th century or today. There was a Mecca located in present day Iraq, located between Abraham's home and Haran, but is now under a huge lake. The description of your erroneous "Mecca", which was called in the Koran, the place of kneeling, with its two mountains and valley, where you could find Abraham, and Solomon, describes Jerusalem, and not your made-up Mecca, which was desolate, and whose only resource was a well, and not on any trading route, then or now. As for the word Mhmd written in the Koran, it means the "praised one", and is more likely in reference to Isa Ibn Maryam, and not some historical nonexistent Muhammad living in the area of present day Mecca. A more likely historical Muhammad, governed Hira, in what is now present day Iraq. The Ṣafā (Mount Scopus) and Marwah (Mount Moriah) are located in Jerusalem, with an actual valley between them, and are not two protruding rocks in present day Mecca. While Eve was thrown out of the garden of Eden, she probably didn't end up in the desolate Mecca area. And most likely, Adam didn't end up in India and being 90 feet tall, which is the tradition of Islam. I understand that if you fail to stand firm with your religion, then you are likely to get your head cut off, but the alternative is according to Zechariah 14:12, is to have the neighboring Arab nations of Jerusalem, have their eyes melt and their skin fall off while they stand. You could wait to see, but according to the prophet Isa Ibn Maryam (Yeshua), written in Revelation 9:6, "men will seek death and will not find it". You could always steal a loaf of bread, get your right hand cut off, and just simply quickly starve to death. I don't know, what is one to do?

 

[firedragon]

There was no world trade center in present day Mecca of Eastern Arabia with canals and fruit orchards in the 7th century or today. There was a Mecca located in present day Iraq, located between Abraham's home and Haran, but is now under a huge lake. The description of your erroneous "Mecca", which was called in the Koran, the place of kneeling, with its two mountains and valley, where you could find Abraham, and Solomon, describes Jerusalem, and not your made-up Mecca, which was desolate, and whose only resource was a well, and not on any trading route, then or now. As for the word Mhmd written in the Koran, it means the "praised one", and is more likely in reference to Isa Ibn Maryam, and not some historical nonexistent Muhammad living in the area of present day Mecca. A more likely historical Muhammad, governed Hira, in what is now present day Iraq. The Ṣafā (Mount Scopus) and Marwah (Mount Moriah) are located in Jerusalem, with an actual valley between them, and are not two protruding rocks in present day Mecca. While Eve was thrown out of the garden of Eden, she probably didn't end up in the desolate Mecca area. And most likely, Adam didn't end up in India and being 90 feet tall, which is the tradition of Islam. I understand that if you fail to stand firm with your religion, then you are likely to get your head cut off, but the alternative is according to Zechariah 14:12, is to have the neighboring Arab nations of Jerusalem, have their eyes melt and their skin fall off while they stand. You could wait to see, but according to the prophet Isa Ibn Maryam (Yeshua), written in Revelation 9:6, "men will seek death and will not find it". You could always steal a loaf of bread, get your right hand cut off, and just simply quickly starve to death. I don't know, what is one to do?

Most of that is irrelevant.

Just confirm if you think Muhammed was a myth. Thats what you said so just confirm it. Thanks.

 

[2ndpillar]

Most of that is irrelevant.

Just confirm if you think Muhammed was a myth. Thats what you said so just confirm it. Thanks.

The "Muhammed" of a 7th century Mecca, of western Arabia, is a false narrative (Myth) created 200 years later, and not in Mecca. And all the false narratives are all relevant. You can't have someone ruling from a world renown trade center which did not exist as such in the mid-eastern part of Arabia. The Persian writers of the hadiths, simply took characters from their own area and put them into this mythical narrative. The oldest Kuran, which is incomplete, was taken from Yemen, and it was a compilation of scraps, much of the content taken from other earlier non-Muslim sources, and it had been whited out and written over. Islam doesn't have a leg to stand on, and only lives on by way of the sword, and the promise of 72 virgins/raison.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Anyways the thread is why from a Muslim perspective, it's best to believe the Bible is partially from God and not all made up by humans.

I appreciate that, and I'm not going to try to talk you out of your perspective. But basically, the Muslim perspective doesn't allow for the most simple explanation -- that Muhammad simply knew Jews and Arian Christians and learned these Bible stories from them. Refer to Occam's razor.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Most of that is irrelevant.

Just confirm if you think Muhammed was a myth. Thats what you said so just confirm it. Thanks.

Muhammad was definitiely a historical person. But Islam has a lot of "stories" about him that are not necessarily true.

 

[firedragon]

The "Muhammed" of a 7th century Mecca, of western Arabia, is a false narrative (Myth) created 200 years later, and not in Mecca. And all the false narratives are all relevant. You can't have someone ruling from a world renown trade center which did not exist as such in the mid-eastern part of Arabia. The Persian writers of the hadiths, simply took characters from their own area and put them into this mythical narrative. The oldest Kuran, which is incomplete, was taken from Yemen, and it was a compilation of scraps, much of the content taken from other earlier non-Muslim sources, and it had been whited out and written over. Islam doesn't have a leg to stand on, and only lives on by way of the sword, and the promise of 72 virgins/raison.

The oldest Quran? Lol. Scraps? If I ask a question you will avoid it anyway.

SO bottomline is you think Muhammed was a myth. Just affirm it mate. This is what you are saying.

 

[firedragon]

Muhammad was definitiely a historical person. But Islam has a lot of "stories" about him that are not necessarily true.

I agree.

I am only asking this person who proposes Muhammed is a myth to clearly state this is what he believes. Thats all.

 

[Link]

I appreciate that, and I'm not going to try to talk you out of your perspective. But basically, the Muslim perspective doesn't allow for the most simple explanation -- that Muhammad simply knew Jews and Arian Christians and learned these Bible stories from them. Refer to Occam's razor.

The Muslim perspective obviously sees Mohammad (s) as a true Prophet so won't allow that. But given you believe in Prophets and God, why Occam's razor be that he is false Prophet as opposed to a true one?

 

[2ndpillar]

The oldest Quran? Lol. Scraps? If I ask a question you will avoid it anyway.

SO bottomline is you think Muhammed was a myth. Just affirm it mate. This is what you are saying.

Mhmd, often pronounced Mohammed, means the "praised one", and with regard to the Koran, is better tied to Isa Ibn Maryam, noted as a prophet of Allah in the Koran, rather than some personality, described in writing some 200 years later. As for the Koran, there is no complete Koran dated in the 7th century. All you have is bits and pieces (segments), and the Islamic traditions, show that the early different Korans, didn't even have the same number of chapters (surahs). The character of "Muhammad", was put together from various places and events. The Kaaba, was most likely moved from the north, such as Petra, in the 70th year of the Islamic calendar. The prayer walls of older mosques in northern Africa and Spain, as well as India and China, do not point towards Mecca. Your whole Islamic house is built on a house of cards. The original foundation of the mosque in China, most probably was built by the world traders, the Nabateans, and pointed toward Petra. The Nabateans generally accepted the religion of their trading partners, and prayed towards their ancestors, who they buried in Petra and surrounds. That is why the architecture of Petra has roots from around the world. It was the Nabateans who understood the stars, and could travel in the deserts, and were world traders, who used and traded with camels.

 

[Link]

Mhmd, often pronounced Mohammed, means the "praised one", and with regard to the Koran, is better tied to Isa Ibn Maryam, noted as a prophet of Allah in the Koran, rather than some personality, described in writing some 200 years later. As for the Koran, there is no complete Koran dated in the 7th century. All you have is bits and pieces (segments), and the Islamic traditions, show that the early different Korans, didn't even have the same number of chapters (surahs). The character of "Muhammad", was put together from various places and events. The Kaaba, was most likely moved from the north, such as Petra, in the 70th year of the Islamic calendar. The prayer walls of older mosques in northern Africa and Spain, as well as India and China, do not point towards Mecca. Your whole Islamic house is built on a house of cards. The original foundation of the mosque in China, most probably was built by the world traders, the Nabateans, and pointed toward Petra. The Nabateans generally accepted the religion of their trading partners, and prayed towards their ancestors, who they buried in Petra and surrounds. That is why the architecture of Petra has roots from around the world. It was the Nabateans who understood the stars, and could travel in the deserts, and were world traders, who used and traded with camels.

Isa (a) was end to branches per Quran, while Mohammad (s) is a foundation of a blessed tree like Musa (a) and Abraham (a) were. He is a founder to be followed by branches (Asbaat). The family of Mohammad (s) shows all theories that Rulers made it up to be false. Why would they make up a book that refutes the foundation of their false authority and opposes them?

 

[2ndpillar]

Isa (a) was end to branches per Quran, while Mohammad (s) is a foundation of a blessed tree like Musa (a) and Abraham (a) were. He is a founder to be followed by branches (Asbaat). The family of Mohammad (s) shows all theories that Rulers made it up to be false. Why would they make up a book that refutes the foundation of their false authority and opposes them?

Sorry, but I wasn't able to follow your train of thought. As for the "family" of the so called "Mohammad", they apparently lived near Petra, and eventually possibly moved to Median, and not Mecca. Petra was originally the city of the Edomites (Essau), and not the city of Ishmael. The Kaaba (cube building), as in the holy of holies, the place of bowing, probably moved from Jerusalem in 70 A.D. to Petra, and then in the 70th year of Islam, it was moved to Mecca.

Muhammad in Petra (nabataea.net)

 

[Link]

Sorry, but I wasn't able to follow your train of thought. As for the "family" of the so called "Mohammad", they apparently lived near Petra, and eventually possibly moved to Median, and not Mecca. Petra was originally the city of the Edomites (Essau), and not the city of Ishmael. The Kaaba (cube building), as in the holy of holies, the place of bowing, probably moved from Jerusalem in 70 A.D. to Petra, and then in the 70th year of Islam, it was moved to Mecca.

Muhammad in Petra (nabataea.net)

Isa (a) is the last of the Twelve Successors of Musa (a) per Quran. You are terribly confusing yourself for no reason. Mohammad (s) is a founder to be followed by Twelve Navigating Captains for society per Quran.

 

[firedragon]

Mhmd, often pronounced Mohammed, means the "praised one", and with regard to the Koran, is better tied to Isa Ibn Maryam, noted as a prophet of Allah in the Koran, rather than some personality, described in writing some 200 years later. As for the Koran, there is no complete Koran dated in the 7th century. All you have is bits and pieces (segments), and the Islamic traditions, show that the early different Korans, didn't even have the same number of chapters (surahs). The character of "Muhammad", was put together from various places and events. The Kaaba, was most likely moved from the north, such as Petra, in the 70th year of the Islamic calendar. The prayer walls of older mosques in northern Africa and Spain, as well as India and China, do not point towards Mecca. Your whole Islamic house is built on a house of cards. The original foundation of the mosque in China, most probably was built by the world traders, the Nabateans, and pointed toward Petra. The Nabateans generally accepted the religion of their trading partners, and prayed towards their ancestors, who they buried in Petra and surrounds. That is why the architecture of Petra has roots from around the world. It was the Nabateans who understood the stars, and could travel in the deserts, and were world traders, who used and traded with camels.

So bottomline is you believe Muhammed was a Myth. Not real.

 

[firedragon]

Sorry, but I wasn't able to follow your train of thought. As for the "family" of the so called "Mohammad", they apparently lived near Petra,

Lol. Dan Gibson fan? Do you follow dan Gibson and Jay Smith blindly?

Of course you do.

Who in the world told you that the so called Ahlil Baith lived near Petra? What is the evidence?

Now rather than going to china, the moon and the solar system as you usually do thinking machine gun techniques work as intellect, why not answer this specific question with exact, specific answers?

Who in the world told you that the so called Ahlil Baith lived near Petra? What is the evidence?

 

[sayak83]

If they are known to be partially incorrect, why doesn't god issue an update?
If Windows can issue an update most years, surely it is not beyond god to do the same.

Baha'i- ....hold on just a moment...

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Muslim perspective obviously sees Mohammad (s) as a true Prophet so won't allow that. But given you believe in Prophets and God, why Occam's razor be that he is false Prophet as opposed to a true one?

Occam's razor -- it is a much simpler explanation that Muhammad simply hung around Jews and Christians and got the stories from them. There really is no need to introduce something supernatural happening.

 

[Link]

Occam's razor -- it is a much simpler explanation that Muhammad simply hung around Jews and Christians and got the stories from them. There really is no need to introduce something supernatural happening.

I understand this viewpoint from an Atheist. But if you believe in God and Prophets, how is it a simpler explanation?

 

[2ndpillar]

Isa (a) is the last of the Twelve Successors of Musa (a) per Quran. You are terribly confusing yourself for no reason. Mohammad (s) is a founder to be followed by Twelve Navigating Captains for society per Quran.

Moses (Musa) only referred to one coming prophet from among your people (Israel) (Deuteronomy 18:15) Your Mohammad seems to be a "sovereign citizen" if he is a ship's captain. I would suggest they stay away from the U.S. The most common punishment of sovereign citizen ship captains, driving within the U.S., is a broken windshield, plus a nice fine. If these ship captains are navigating for Muslim countries, they appear to be on the rocks. Maybe you should look for a different navigator.

New American Standard Bible Deuteronomy 18:15
“The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen; to him you shall listen.

 

[2ndpillar]

So bottomline is you believe Muhammed was a Myth. Not real.

The term Mhmd, often pronounced Mohammad, which means "praised one" has historical evidence. The Islamic character, Mohammad, formed much later, is a narrative based on different people from different geographical areas. As for archeological proof of a lack of early Islamic culture, the Arab leaders used Byzantian type of coins with idol imagery until the late 7th century. The power of Islam was born of the north, and the result of the degradation of the Persians and the Byzantine empires. The disparate Islam narrative, was born of the internal Arab conflict. And yeah, your "Muhammad" character was mostly the product of the minds of the sons of Persians, and not written in Mecca. The narratives were mostly written near what is now present-day Baghdad by men with no Arabic ancestry, nor firsthand knowledge. Find the goat droppings, containing the part of the Koran, eaten by the house goat, of the young wife of this so-called Mohammad, and you will have evidence that there were written fragments of the Koran after this so-called Mohammad's death.