The Quran confirms parts of the Bible.

[firedragon]

The term Mhmd, often pronounced Mohammad, which means "praised one" has historical evidence. The Islamic character, Mohammad, formed much later, is a narrative based on different people from different geographical areas. As for archeological proof of a lack of early Islamic culture, the Arab leaders used Byzantian type of coins with idol imagery until the late 7th century. The power of Islam was born of the north, and the result of the degradation of the Persians and the Byzantine empires. The disparate Islam narrative, was born of the internal Arab conflict. And yeah, your "Muhammad" character was mostly the product of the minds of the sons of Persians, and not written in Mecca. The narratives were mostly written near what is now present-day Baghdad by men with no Arabic ancestry, nor firsthand knowledge. Find the goat droppings, containing the part of the Koran, eaten by the house goat, of the young wife of this so-called Mohammad, and you will have evidence that there were written fragments of the Koran after this so-called Mohammad's death.

So bottomline is Muhammed was a myth. that's your whole point.

 

[2ndpillar]

I understand this viewpoint from an Atheist. But if you believe in God and Prophets, how is it a simpler explanation?

Isa Ibn Maryam believed in prophets, and his message was that they would be "false prophets" and come as wolves dressed in sheep's clothing (Matthew 7:15). He also believed in the "dragon"/devil, who would give his power to men/beast, and that one worships the "dragon" when they worship the men (Revelation 13:4).

 

[2ndpillar]

So bottomline is Muhammed was a myth. that's your whole point.

It is a false narrative, based on actual people in different places. There was a "Gabriel" in northern Arabia, who was a monk at the monastery of Saint Katherine, and they claimed a letter from Islamist giving them safety. According to the Islamic narrative, a young Mohammed met a monk, while being with his family who were camel trading, and was told he would be special. The stories are self-serving, but they could have a grain of truth, just as the monastery is on a mountain, but it is not the mountain of God, with respect to Moses, but in Egypt instead of Arabia. The story of Muhammad is a mountain of small, but cumulative a large lie.

 

[firedragon]

It is a false narrative, based on actual people in different places. There was a "Gabriel" in northern Arabia, who was a monk at the monastery of Saint Katherine, and they claimed a letter from Islamist giving them safety. According to the Islamic narrative, a young Mohammed met a monk, while being with his family who were camel trading, and was told he would be special. The stories are self-serving, but they could have a grain of truth, just as the monastery is on a mountain, but it is not the mountain of God, with respect to Moses, but in Egypt instead of Arabia. The story of Muhammad is a mountain of small, but cumulative a large lie.

So bottomline is Muhammed never existed. Its a myth. Correct?

 

[Link]

So bottomline is Muhammed never existed. Its a myth. Correct?

I think he already affirmed this many times and is elaborating why per his understanding.

 

[Link]

Moses (Musa) only referred to one coming prophet from among your people (Israel) (Deuteronomy 18:15) Your Mohammad seems to be a "sovereign citizen" if he is a ship's captain. I would suggest they stay away from the U.S. The most common punishment of sovereign citizen ship captains, driving within the U.S., is a broken windshield, plus a nice fine. If these ship captains are navigating for Muslim countries, they appear to be on the rocks. Maybe you should look for a different navigator.

New American Standard Bible Deuteronomy 18:15
“The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen; to him you shall listen.

Your "brethren" has various views. But this would not be the only place Torah talked about Mohammad (s). From my reading I see three other places.

 

[Link]

(1) The way Torah has talked about the exalted ones that Adam (a) wanted to be one of and who are the tree of life and knowledge.
(2) The way Torah has emphasized on kingship of Abraham and Twelve princes to be born of Ishmael which means "God has heard"
(3) The way Torah has emphasized Moses prays about the one who God will send and God responds to him he has Aaron means there is a universal one God will sent that will break the knots on all Messengers tongues yet God wanted him to want that to happen more soon and says you have Aaron to succeed you and be on your side so pray this happens sooner then later.

Put this in mind and it's clear Mohammad (s) in the Torah.

(4) The verse you quoted, Jesus (a) is last of successors to Moses (a) and other successors are not like the founder. To me like Moses, you have to be the initiator and founder. So this applies to Mohammad (s).

Along side that, Torah has talked about the household of Abraham (a) in a way that implies there is always a chosen household. It was suppose to lead to the household of Aaron (a) and the covenant with them, but the Torah also makes God break that promise and covenant which Quran does not affirm (Quran shows family of Moses and family of Aaron is one and the same family).

But keeping in mind the concept of a chosen household, it means the one like Moses (a) will found such a household as he did through his brother Aaron (a).

 

[firedragon]

I think he already affirmed this many times and is elaborating why per his understanding.

Really. Thanks.

 

[2ndpillar]

Your "brethren" has various views. But this would not be the only place Torah talked about Mohammad (s). From my reading I see three other places.

Mhmd, often pronounced mohammad, means "praised one". The Lord God, YHWH, was to be praised per the Torah. I have read a couple of the false Islam narratives on the "praised one" referring to Muhammad, but if you want to show the world the depths that Islam goes to justify its false narrative, I would suggest you do so, and list your "other places".

 

[2ndpillar]

(1) The way Torah has talked about the exalted ones that Adam (a) wanted to be one of and who are the tree of life and knowledge.
(2) The way Torah has emphasized on kingship of Abraham and Twelve princes to be born of Ishmael which means "God has heard"
(3) The way Torah has emphasized Moses prays about the one who God will send and God responds to him he has Aaron means there is a universal one God will sent that will break the knots on all Messengers tongues yet God wanted him to want that to happen more soon and says you have Aaron to succeed you and be on your side so pray this happens sooner then later.

Put this in mind and it's clear Mohammad (s) in the Torah.

(4) The verse you quoted, Jesus (a) is last of successors to Moses (a) and other successors are not like the founder. To me like Moses, you have to be the initiator and founder. So this applies to Mohammad (s).

Along side that, Torah has talked about the household of Abraham (a) in a way that implies there is always a chosen household. It was suppose to lead to the household of Aaron (a) and the covenant with them, but the Torah also makes God break that promise and covenant which Quran does not affirm (Quran shows family of Moses and family of Aaron is one and the same family).

But keeping in mind the concept of a chosen household, it means the one like Moses (a) will found such a household as he did through his brother Aaron (a).

Abram was given the name Abraham, by God, and it means father of peoples/nations, not a king. Abraham paid homage to Melchizedek, the king of Salem. The original king given to Israel was Saul, who was apparently over taken by demons, and had to be replaced by king David, who was a son of Judah, and therefore of Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham The Law and the prophets, the book of the Jews, points to a coming king, who would be king David (Ezekiel 37). As for Aaron, he was never a king, but a high priest. The Levites now represent the priest hood in the Jewish nation, and they are not kings, and are supposedly without inheritance of land.
As for Ishmael, he had 12 sons, as did Edom/Essea, and Jacob, and would be the nations born of Abraham. According to the Jewish prophets, Edom would not fare well in the end. As for the nation of Essau, the Edomites, according to the prophet Obadiah, they shall be as stubble devoured by flame. As for the countries surrounding Jerusalem, which would include those who profess Ismael as their father, they shall not fare well if they should raise their hand to Jerusalem, and will be destroyed (Zechariah 12:9). The book of the Jews, given to them by God, according to the Koran, does not look fondly on those who would strike "My people", the sons of Jacob.

Obadiah 1
18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be [any] remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken [it].

 

[Link]

Abram was given the name Abraham by God, and it means father of peoples/nations, not a king. The original king given to Israel was Saul, who was apparently over taken by demons, and had to be replaced by king David, who was a son of Judah, and therefore of Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham The Law and the prophets, the book of the Jews, points to a coming king, who would be king David (Ezekiel 37). As for Aaron, he was never a king, but a high priest. The Levites now represent the priest hood in the Jewish nation, and they are not kings, and are supposedly without inheritance of land.
As for Ishmael, he had 12 sons, as did Edom/Essea, and Jacob, and would be the nations born of Abraham. According to the Jewish prophets, Edom would not fare well in the end. As for the nation of Essau, the Edomites, according to the prophet Obadiah, they shall as stubble devoured by flame. As for the countries surrounding Jerusalem, which would include those who profess Ismael as their father, they shall not fare well if they should raise their hand to Jerusalem, and will be destroyed (Zechariah 12:9). The book of the Jews, given to them by God, according to the Koran, does not look fondly on those who would strike "My people", the sons of Jacob.

Obadiah 1
18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be [any] remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken [it].

Kings come from all offspring all over the world in the sense you thinking of. But in the sense of divine kingship and authority, then it's related to how God is King.

Ismail had twelve sons and that was according to the number of princes promised in his offspring, but they weren't princes in themselves, God just made it that their number in sync, and the Kings after Ishmael weren't them, but Isaac, then Jacob, then Joseph, then Benjamin, and the rest of the branches one by one till reaching twelve Successors to Ibrahim.

A prince means inherits a king... so there would be a founder to kings from the offspring of Ismail. This was Mohammad (s), and in Quran we find that before it says Mohammad (s) is found in Torah and Gospels, it emphasizes that authority belongs to God, the world mulk is also used for kingship in Arabic, as well as authority, as well in some contexts kingdom.

We also see emphasis on Twelve after that in Surah 7. So obviously the way to see Mohammad (s) in the Torah is linked to the Twelve branches of Moses who started per Quran with Aaron and ended with Jesus and that the number of successors in Torah is emphasized but with respect to Mohammad (s) while Quran it's emphasized with respect to Musa (a).

The Quran emphasizes in 2:255 that God's seat encompasses everything in the universe, and it's emphasized that God is the true King while Pharaohs while dominant outwardly in the land and apparently have authority, it's God who will account everyone and the consequences of disobeying him are severe while reward of obeying him also great.

In 4:54 God emphasizes that Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim was given the book (Prophethood), Wisdom (Messengership to convey that wisdom), and a great authority (Kingship and leadership, the right to be obeyed from God's right).

It's in this context that we are told we too have those who possess the authority from us (4:59) and they are obviously the envied humans compared to family of Ibrahim in 4:54.

Also there is a disagreement with that sons of Israel means. You said it yourself that Abraham is father of nations, this is metaphoric.

It's same with Bani-Israel per Quran, they are offspring of those carried in the ship of Noah, not even all offspring of Noah.

It's same with our father Adam, it's metaphoric, otherwise, Quran would not emphasized those who God favored his religion to humanity upon and towards and regarding to be of his offspring, because all humans would be of his offspring in this case.

The truth is Adam (a) is the founding spiritual father of humanity, and bani-Adam means we ought to follow a successor of Adam. Israel means the who struggles for God or with God, but there is one such human in all times, that strives in God's way and prays on behalf of people and struggles for the sake of God and fights off the devils and gains power from God.

Bani-Israel thus is metaphorical per Quran.

Also high priest, means exalted leader, exalted is synonymous with being a chosen one, and leader has authority from God to be obeyed and hence is a king from God.

The concept of priesthood in other then chosen ones, was invented and is a wrong interpretation. Aaron is exalted leader, and there would be exalted leaders from his offspring. This doesn't have anything to do with man-made priesthood today.

Ismail is also emphasized to be one who God has heard regarding and who his offspring would be blessed and ways from him would come out and a great pathway from him would come out.

 

[2ndpillar]

Kings come from all offspring all over the world in the sense you thinking of. But in the sense of divine kingship and authority, then it's related to how God is King.

Ismail had twelve sons and that was according to the number of princes promised in his offspring, but they weren't princes in themselves, God just made it that their number in sync, and the Kings after Ishmael weren't them, but Isaac, then Jacob, then Joseph, then Benjamin, and the rest of the branches one by one till reaching twelve Successors to Ibrahim.

A prince means inherits a king... so there would be a founder to kings from the offspring of Ismail. This was Mohammad (s), and in Quran we find that before it says Mohammad (s) is found in Torah and Gospels, it emphasizes that authority belongs to God, the world mulk is also used for kingship in Arabic, as well as authority, as well in some contexts kingdom.

We also see emphasis on Twelve after that in Surah 7. So obviously the way to see Mohammad (s) in the Torah is linked to the Twelve branches of Moses who started per Quran with Aaron and ended with Jesus and that the number of successors in Torah is emphasized but with respect to Mohammad (s) while Quran it's emphasized with respect to Musa (a).

The Quran emphasizes in 2:255 that God's seat encompasses everything in the universe, and it's emphasized that God is the true King while Pharaohs while dominant outwardly in the land and apparently have authority, it's God who will account everyone and the consequences of disobeying him are severe while reward of obeying him also great.

In 4:54 God emphasizes that Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim was given the book (Prophethood), Wisdom (Messengership to convey that wisdom), and a great authority (Kingship and leadership, the right to be obeyed from God's right).

It's in this context that we are told we too have those who possess the authority from us (4:59) and they are obviously the envied humans compared to family of Ibrahim in 4:54.

Also there is a disagreement with that sons of Israel means. You said it yourself that Abraham is father of nations, this is metaphoric.

It's same with Bani-Israel per Quran, they are offspring of those carried in the ship of Noah, not even all offspring of Noah.

It's same with our father Adam, it's metaphoric, otherwise, Quran would not emphasized those who God favored his religion to humanity upon and towards and regarding to be of his offspring, because all humans would be of his offspring in this case.

The truth is Adam (a) is the founding spiritual father of humanity, and bani-Adam means we ought to follow a successor of Adam. Israel means the who struggles for God or with God, but there is one such human in all times, that strives in God's way and prays on behalf of people and struggles for the sake of God and fights off the devils and gains power from God.

Bani-Israel thus is metaphorical per Quran.

Also high priest, means exalted leader, exalted is synonymous with being a chosen one, and leader has authority from God to be obeyed and hence is a king from God.

The concept of priesthood in other then chosen ones, was invented and is a wrong interpretation. Aaron is exalted leader, and there would be exalted leaders from his offspring. This doesn't have anything to do with man-made priesthood today.

Ismail is also emphasized to be one who God has heard regarding and who his offspring would be blessed and ways from him would come out and a great pathway from him would come out.

It was the prayer of Ishmael's mother which was heard by God. Ishmael was to be blessed, but on the other hand, according to Zechariah 12:9, any who come against Jerusalem will be "destroyed", and this would be those who come against Judah and Jerusalem after they have been "restored" (Joel 3:1-3). As for Ishmael and Edom, Edom would include the area south of Judea, which would include Petra, which is claimed by the Jordanian Arabs. As per the message of Isa Ibn Maryam, Yeshua, per Matthew 13, there would be the tares (the unfruitful), the product of the devil, and the good wheat, the product of the son of man. In other words, as spoken by John, those who practice sin, would be sons of the devil, and the sons of God, would not practice sin (transgress of the Law) (1 John 3:8-9). As for "kingship", the final king, according to the prophets, would be king David (Ezekiel 37), and the "priest" would be the Levites, who are sons of Jacob (Malachi 3:3). King David will rule over both Ephraim and Judah in the land given to Jacob. (Ezekiel 37) The Levites, the priesthood, would be included within Judah (Jews). Under Trump, the supposed Ishmaelites were making peace treaties with the nation of Israel. Under the present U.S. administration, that situation could remain intact or break down with dire non metaphorical consequences for the sons of Ishmael.

 

[Link]

It was the prayer of Ishmael's mother which was heard by God. Ishmael was to be blessed, but on the other hand, according to Zechariah 12:9, any who come against Jerusalem will be "destroyed", and this would be those who come against Judah and Jerusalem after they have been "restored" (Joel 3:1-3). As for Ishmael and Edom, Edom would include the area south of Judea, which would include Petra, which is claimed by the Jordanian Arabs. As per the message of Isa Ibn Maryam, Yeshua, per Matthew 13, there would be the tares (the unfruitful), the product of the devil, and the good wheat, the product of the son of man. In other words, as spoken by John, those who practice sin, would be sons of the devil, and the sons of God, would not practice sin (transgress of the Law) (1 John 3:8-9). As for "kingship", the final king, according to the prophets, would be king David (Ezekiel 37), and the "priest" would be the Levites, who are sons of Jacob (Malachi 3:3). King David will rule over both Ephraim and Judah in the land given to Jacob. (Ezekiel 37) The Levites, the priesthood, would be included within Judah (Jews). Under Trump, the supposed Ishmaelites were making peace treaties with the nation of Israel. Under the present U.S. administration, that situation could remain intact or break down with dire non metaphorical consequences for the sons of Ishmael.

You are ignoring all my points and just presenting your views without any regards to what I stated.

 

[alypius]

The book here means they have something of scripture revealed by God to them, otherwise, it doesn't make sense to call them people of the book.

Where does it say that the scripture was revealed by God?

 

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Where does it say that the scripture was revealed by God?

The book is talked about in that context in Quran. It's a revelation from God otherwise everyone had "books".

 

[2ndpillar]

You are ignoring all my points and just presenting your views without any regards to what I stated.

What you say, in general, does not make any sense. There were not 12 kings/princes between Moses or Aaron and Isa Ibn Maryam. There were not 12 kings between Jacob and Isa Ibn Maryam. According to the apostle of Ibn Isa Maryam (Matthew 1), there were 14 generations from the deportation to Babylon, to the birth of birth of Isa Ibn Maryam, and Moses and Aaron preceded that period many more generations. As for the 12 sons of Ishmeal, they could be called princes, but they lived in one generation, and created many peoples, a large nation, at the inception. Those nations, based on 12 sons, as with the sons of Jacob, were not metaphoric. Judah (Jews), a son of Jacob, exist in substance today, and according to the prophet Ezekiel 36, the sons of Israel, who is represented by Ephraim, remain "scattered" among the "nations" (Ezekiel 36:19). It is not until the nations converge on Jerusalem (Zechariah 14 & Joel 3:1-2), that the sons of Israel will be gathered out of the nations, and returned to the land given to Jacob (Ezekiel 37), and not the sons of Ishmael. Now if the sons of Ishmael, want to enjoy the blessing given to Jacob, they will then have to make themselves servants to Jacob (Isaiah 14). Now if the book of the Jews was not from God, as stated in the Koran, then your problems would be somewhat remedied. You could then drop the Jewish prophets, and their book, and start from scratch.

 

[Link]

What you say, in general, does not make any sense. There were not 12 kings/princes between Moses or Aaron and Isa Ibn Maryam. There were not 12 kings between Jacob and Isa Ibn Maryam. According to the apostle of Ibn Isa Maryam (Matthew 1), there were 14 generations from the deportation to Babylon, to the birth of birth of Isa Ibn Maryam, and Moses and Aaron preceded that period many more generations. As for the 12 sons of Ishmeal, they could be called princes, but they lived in one generation, and created many peoples, a large nation, at the inception. Those nations, based on 12 sons, as with the sons of Jacob, were not metaphoric. Judah (Jews), a son of Jacob, exist in substance today, and according to the prophet Ezekiel 36, the sons of Israel, who is represented by Ephraim, remain "scattered" among the "nations" (Ezekiel 36:19). It is not until the nations converge on Jerusalem (Zechariah 14 & Joel 3:1-2), that the sons of Israel will be gathered out of the nations, and returned to the land given to Jacob (Ezekiel 37), and not the sons of Ishmael. Now if the sons of Ishmael, want to enjoy the blessing given to Jacob, they will then have to make themselves servants to Jacob (Isaiah 14). Now if the book of the Jews was not from God, as stated in the Koran, then your problems would be somewhat remedied. You could then drop the Jewish prophets, and their book, and start from scratch.

I know this according to the Bible. But per Quran, there are essential contradictions in the Bible. The emphasis on twelve, is particularly, because there are twelve. And the emphasis on household of Abraham is not to make Jews feel better then others due to bloodline which per Quran, they are not even all blood related to him, but rather, it's that this how God guides humanity.

I understand holistically, bible and Quran are in contradiction.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The emphasis on twelve, is particularly, because there are twelve.

The Christians would say the same sort of thing.
The emphasis on 3 is particularly because there are 3.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

It's not good to make claims like this, imo.
Some people say "there are 4 Imams". Same thing.
It is not rational, nor did any prophet teach any of the above.

 

[Link]

The Christians would say the same sort of thing.
The mphasis on 3 is particlularly because there are 3.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

It's not good to make claims like this, imo.
Some people say "there are 4 Imams". Same thing.
It is not rational, nor did any prophet teach any of the above.

The Quran teaches with every generic founder it's always twelve representatives. And it talks about twelve not randomly but calculatively.

 

[2ndpillar]

I know this according to the Bible. But per Quran, there are essential contradictions in the Bible. The emphasis on twelve, is particularly, because there are twelve. And the emphasis on household of Abraham is not to make Jews feel better then others due to bloodline which per Quran, they are not even all blood related to him, but rather, it's that this how God guides humanity.

I understand holistically, bible and Quran are in contradiction.

Your problem is that the Koran says the book of the Jews, and the gospel of Isa Ibn Maryam are from Allah, whereas the message of Isa Ibn Maryam, is that false prophets would follow him (Matthew 7:15). You are in a very poor position with regard to the contradictions you point out.