The Prosperity Gospel

[metis]

As I was at mass this Sunday at my wife's church, the priest talked about the poor and how it's the obligation of both the church and the people to do what they must do about it, and this also includes governmental obligations. This is not at all an unusual homily (sermon) in the RCC as I've heard this same message probably a thousands of times before in a Catholic church.

But I grew up in a different church, namely a fundamentalist Protestant one, whereas that message was rarely heard, and when it was mentioned it often was accompanied with a demand to increase one's church donations.

With many of what some call "health & wealth churches", it seems that a different "Jesus" is being prayed to, one who supposedly would have all of the "true believers" being "successful", both materially and otherwise. I used to do a lot of "church hopping", and this approach I encountered over and over again, and impression if left me is that these congregations just didn't want to hear about suffering and poverty if it involved others. I don't want to mention specific denominations since local churches often vary within a specific denomination.

Below is a story of a man who seems to have a similar bent, so I'll quote three paragraphs from him, and then open it up for discussion:
...On the other hand, if I only look at the good parts of my life: the happy marriage, the healthy kids, the cute house, the work-from-home job, the two vehicles, the vacations, the friends, the food overflowing our pantry, the ability to live within our means and be debt-free, the great hair (that’s a joke), I begin to believe the lie that I deserve all these things and that the Gospel is about me having a good life.

But that’s not what the Gospel is about, and I often get that twisted because I live in America and I’m surrounded by a world that tells me how I “earned” that new shiny cell phone or those really expensive shoes. I’ve been convicted recently of how embedded in our culture those fallacies are and how important it is to make sure I don’t fall into that trap.

We don’t deserve anything... -- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...unwelcoming-jesus_us_57e93adfe4b00267764fc902

Thoughts? [and please spare us the anti-Catholic clap-trap that some seemingly just can't resist]

 

[savagewind]

Luke 12:13-15

13Someone in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”14But Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed Mejudge or executor between you?” 15And He said to them, “Watch out! Guard yourselves against every form of greed, for a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”

pleonexia: advantage, covetousness
Original Word: πλεονεξία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pleonexia
Phonetic Spelling: (pleh-on-ex-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: covetousness, avarice
Definition: covetousness, avarice, aggression, desire for advantage.

http://biblehub.com/greek/4124.htm

Jesus says guard yourselves against every form of covetousness so if a person preaches that Jesus is for material advantage then he is preaching a different gospel.

 

[Thief]

As I was at mass this Sunday at my wife's church, the priest talked about the poor and how it's the obligation of both the church and the people to do what they must do about it, and this also includes governmental obligations. This is not at all an unusual homily (sermon) in the RCC as I've heard this same message probably a thousands of times before in a Catholic church.

But I grew up in a different church, namely a fundamentalist Protestant one, whereas that message was rarely heard, and when it was mentioned it often was accompanied with a demand to increase one's church donations.

With many of what some call "health & wealth churches", it seems that a different "Jesus" is being prayed to, one who supposedly would have all of the "true believers" being "successful", both materially and otherwise. I used to do a lot of "church hopping", and this approach I encountered over and over again, and impression if left me is that these congregations just didn't want to hear about suffering and poverty if it involved others. I don't want to mention specific denominations since local churches often vary within a specific denomination.

Below is a story of a man who seems to have a similar bent, so I'll quote three paragraphs from him, and then open it up for discussion:
...On the other hand, if I only look at the good parts of my life: the happy marriage, the healthy kids, the cute house, the work-from-home job, the two vehicles, the vacations, the friends, the food overflowing our pantry, the ability to live within our means and be debt-free, the great hair (that’s a joke), I begin to believe the lie that I deserve all these things and that the Gospel is about me having a good life.

But that’s not what the Gospel is about, and I often get that twisted because I live in America and I’m surrounded by a world that tells me how I “earned” that new shiny cell phone or those really expensive shoes. I’ve been convicted recently of how embedded in our culture those fallacies are and how important it is to make sure I don’t fall into that trap.

We don’t deserve anything... -- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...unwelcoming-jesus_us_57e93adfe4b00267764fc902

Thoughts? [and please spare us the anti-Catholic clap-trap that some seemingly just can't resist]

I have rationalized.....giving directly to the poor (though indirectly through a go-between)
doesn't work

if I give directly to the poor....they will spend it on comfort

if I give to the poor, buying what they have produced....they will have something

and since the economy leans to produce made in countries of low income per capita....
I contribute everytime I buy a cheap shirt

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If one rejects the premise that misery and hardship is evidence of Divine punishment, one should similarly reject the view that joy and achievement is evidence of Divine blessing.

 

[Deidre]

I steer far and away from ''churches'' preaching the prosperity message. Nowhere in the Bible does that exist, and it's simply an Americanized-capitalist form of Christianity.

 

[roger1440]

As I was at mass this Sunday at my wife's church, the priest talked about the poor and how it's the obligation of both the church and the people to do what they must do about it, and this also includes governmental obligations. This is not at all an unusual homily (sermon) in the RCC as I've heard this same message probably a thousands of times before in a Catholic church.

But I grew up in a different church, namely a fundamentalist Protestant one, whereas that message was rarely heard, and when it was mentioned it often was accompanied with a demand to increase one's church donations.

With many of what some call "health & wealth churches", it seems that a different "Jesus" is being prayed to, one who supposedly would have all of the "true believers" being "successful", both materially and otherwise. I used to do a lot of "church hopping", and this approach I encountered over and over again, and impression if left me is that these congregations just didn't want to hear about suffering and poverty if it involved others. I don't want to mention specific denominations since local churches often vary within a specific denomination.

Below is a story of a man who seems to have a similar bent, so I'll quote three paragraphs from him, and then open it up for discussion:
...On the other hand, if I only look at the good parts of my life: the happy marriage, the healthy kids, the cute house, the work-from-home job, the two vehicles, the vacations, the friends, the food overflowing our pantry, the ability to live within our means and be debt-free, the great hair (that’s a joke), I begin to believe the lie that I deserve all these things and that the Gospel is about me having a good life.

But that’s not what the Gospel is about, and I often get that twisted because I live in America and I’m surrounded by a world that tells me how I “earned” that new shiny cell phone or those really expensive shoes. I’ve been convicted recently of how embedded in our culture those fallacies are and how important it is to make sure I don’t fall into that trap.

We don’t deserve anything... -- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...unwelcoming-jesus_us_57e93adfe4b00267764fc902

Thoughts? [and please spare us the anti-Catholic clap-trap that some seemingly just can't resist]

Maybe this might help

Protestant work ethic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic#Basis_in_Protestant_theology
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/protestant-work-ethic/

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I steer far and away from ''churches'' preaching the prosperity message. Nowhere in the Bible does that exist, and it's simply an Americanized-capitalist form of Christianity.

These folks disagree:

http://www.seedsofprosperity.com/prosperity-scriptures.html

The Bible: it has something for everyone.

 

[George-ananda]

Ya, that 'Prosperity Gospel' has always left me shaking my head, It's like the 'good things happen to good people' concept. Err, look around, that doesn't hold at all.

(As an eastern reincarnation believer) I believe we are here to gain compassion and wisdom and the material events are often beyond our control but of lesser importance. These material events do have their reason from a grander perspective beyond our mundane sight.

 

[David1967]

The prosperity gospel is a cancer within Christianity. Nothing more than a money making scam in which the evangelists get rich and the gullible are eventually hurt and disappointed. I know people who have been victimized by these charlatans and I have no use for them. What they teach is not what is taught in the gospels. I look at it like this. If Jesus had the kind of money the televangelists selling their miracles had , he would use it to help the needy, not buy a private jet and a mansion. Nope, no use for them at all.

 

[metis]

Maybe this might help

Protestant work ethic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic#Basis_in_Protestant_theology
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/protestant-work-ethic/

Yes, I'm familiar with this, especially since Max Weber's famous study found much the same as you cite. And this is to a certain degree to be expected since there's interplay between religion and culture in all societies, so certain cultural values will definitely affect how many perceive what their religion/denomination may teach, and in some cases it may overwhelm some of those religious teachings.

 

[metis]

The prosperity gospel is a cancer within Christianity. Nothing more than a money making scam in which the evangelists get rich and the gullible are eventually hurt and disappointed. I know people who have been victimized by these charlatans and I have no use for them. What they teach is not what is taught in the gospels. I look at it like this. If Jesus had the kind of money the televangelists selling their miracles had , he would use it to help the needy, not buy a private jet and a mansion. Nope, no use for them at all.

And I think someone like Joel Osteen fits the above paradigm, but he certainly isn't alone. I have caught him on t.v. several times, and what he says in so many cases is countered by what's actually found in the Christian/Jewish scriptures.

 

[metis]

I don't know if it's still true, but about 10 years ago I saw the results of a survey that indicated that these "health & wealth" churches were the fastest growing ones here in the States.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have caught him on t.v. several times, and what he says in so many cases is countered by what's actually found in the Christian/Jewish scriptures.

I've yet to see any Christian minister or priest that couldn't be described this way.

Edit: sometimes due to contradictions in the scriptures and sometimes due to the mental gymnastics needed to apply a religion of the fringe with no political or social power (i.e. the one described in the New Testament) as the religion of the establishment.

 

[David1967]

I don't know if it's still true, but about 10 years ago I saw the results of a survey that indicated that these "health & wealth" churches were the fastest growing ones here in the States.

Unfortunately, I think you are correct. It never ceases to amaze me that the people that fall for this are often educated otherwise smart people. I have a friend that is completely enthralled to these crooks. Sends money to them thinking God will bless them for it. And nothing I say gets through to them. I'm just told that I don't believe in the Holy Spirit. I told them that there is nothing holy about the spirit behind these people.

 

[metis]

I've yet to see any Christian minister or priest that couldn't be described this way.

.

I have, plus often it's a matter of degrees. There are some I've met and talked with who took vows of poverty, for just one example.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have, plus often it's a matter of degrees. There are some I've met and talked with who took vows of poverty, for just one example.

I wasn't limiting myself just to the issue of wealth versus poverty. AFAIK, the only way to avoid saying something that contradicts some passage in the Bible is to not say anything at all.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I don't know if it's still true, but about 10 years ago I saw the results of a survey that indicated that these "health & wealth" churches were the fastest growing ones here in the States.

Because the same people who deride the poor about personal responsibility want Jesus to plop money, health, and salvation (possibly in that order) in their laps without having to do anything.

 

[Thief]

I used to live next door to a cathedral
and the priests lived right between both buildings in an annex.

talk about NOT living in poverty!

 

[metis]

I wasn't limiting myself just to the issue of wealth versus poverty. AFAIK, the only way to avoid saying something that contradicts some passage in the Bible is to not say anything at all.

Yes, and that's more found with those who take a literalist approach to interpretation while ignoring what the consensus of scripture says on whatever. It's often a combination of cherry-picking matched with confirmation bias in so many cases.

 

[metis]

I used to live next door to a cathedral
and the priests lived right between both buildings in an annex.

talk about NOT living in poverty!

Who actually bought the cathedral and ultimately owns it, the priest? Also, those who do take vows of poverty in the RCC do not live in cathedrals or annexed to them.