The problem with karma and reincarnation

[Gjallarhorn]

^^^^

I'm not sure that scripture you quoted is very reliable because the Buddha on multiple accounts has asserted that the world is eternal (he commonly says "beginningless time" and he also has plenty to say about whether there is life after death and commenets a lot on consciousness.

Thanks for posting the quotes on karma though, those are spot on.

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Malunkhyaputta, with the view, the world is eternal, a holy life is not lead, even with the view the world is not eternal, a holy life is not lead. Malunkhyaputta, with the view the world is eternal or even the world is not eternal, there is birth, decay, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness and displeasure, I declare he is destroyed here and now.

Majjhima II

Maybe he changed his mind later.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

If you believe in God then to believe Karma is natural since God is by definition fair and just.

That is why I do not believe in a God in a traditional sense or Karma because people do in fact do bad things and completely get away with it. If there was such a God or Karma then am sure the world would be a far juster and fairer place than the one I am a part of.

 

[Otherright]

That is why I do not believe in a God in a traditional sense or Karma because people do in fact do bad things and completely get away with it. If there was such a God or Karma then am sure the world would be a far juster and fairer place than the one I am a part of.

But in karma, you don't get away with it. Karma doesn't always return the same as it leaves. Nor does the end result always have to be directly related to the karmic chain that is created by a sequence of events.
You may get away with it at the moment, but later on its going to come back and balance.

Like I said earlier, I don't necessarily agree with the way karma works, but the teachings are so.

 

[Matthew78]

In eastern religions we find the idea that your karma will determine what you will be reincarnated as. If you have lived a bad life, you will be reincarnated into a lower creature. If you have lived a good life, you will be reincarnated into a higher creature.

I think it's important to realize that there are different ideas of karma and reincarnation. I was surprised to learn that it's not just Eastern religions which accept karma and reincarnation. Other religions do, too. I was amazed to learn of one Jewish rabbi who believes that reincarnation and karma are real. Rabbi Gershom came to believe that the victims of the Holocaust had been reincarnated and some people he had met were modern incarnations of these people.

Gershom points out, however, that bad things happening to people is not necessarily or always the result of bad karma bringing about comeuppance. Sometimes horribly bad things can happen to innocent people. Karma is not some mechanical kind of "moral causation" in this view. Rather, karma is a spiritual system designed by God that allows for people to use their free-will in positive and negative ways. Sometimes people die because of divine retribution. Sometimes people die because of an accident. Sometimes innocent people die because of a great evil that has gone unpunished in life.

This view is not unique to Jews like Rabbi Gershom. He also points out that other people like some Native Americans have these beliefs, too. People's beliefs about the role of karma and reincarnation vary from religion to religion.

Here is the problem. If you have lived a bad life, and you are reincarnated into a lower creature, isn't your situation only going to be that much more difficult?

Not necessarily.

To my understanding, if your current life has made living a good life difficult and you've steered ofcourse and lived a bad life, then shouldn't your next life have improved conditions so that you will have a better chance of making progress?

It would depend on the concept of karma being considered. If you were forced into a bad life because a good life was difficult, you might be reincarnated into another life that will allow you to make amends. Not necessarily a lower life-form. If you were born into a impoverished family and had to resort to stealing just to survive or had to sell your daughters into prostitution just to make a living, you might be born into a better life so you can make amends by becoming a social reformer. If you have deliberately chosen a bad life, knowing that it was possible to live a good life, you might be reincarnated into a lower life-form who suffers just enough to pay off karmic debt. Again, it depends on the type of karma one believes is real.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Sorry, the topic of karma and reincarnation is most misunderstood as only researchers in the field of physics or meditators could appreciate.
As frined Mathew mentions it is not a concept only for meditators in India but by meditators anywhere

I was surprised to learn that it's not just Eastern religions which accept karma and reincarnation. Other religions do, too. I was amazed to learn of one Jewish rabbi who believes that reincarnation and karma are real.

The reason for not sharing this concept by enlightened individuals is simply because it is difficult to understand simply because one assumes *HIMSELF* as an entity without understanding what the *SELF* itself IS.
Love & rgds

 

[Madhuri]

In eastern religions we find the idea that your karma will determine what you will be reincarnated as. If you have lived a bad life, you will be reincarnated into a lower creature. If you have lived a good life, you will be reincarnated into a higher creature.

Here is the problem. If you have lived a bad life, and you are reincarnated into a lower creature, isn't your situation only going to be that much more difficult? To my understanding, if your current life has made living a good life difficult and you've steered ofcourse and lived a bad life, then shouldn't your next life have improved conditions so that you will have a better chance of making progress? Why make things even more difficult for beings who are already having problems making progress?

What you become is based on your state of Consciousness. Karma is simply a law of nature. Every action has an equal reaction. Our reactions extend into future life times. The life forms we adopt reflect our material and spiritual progressions. It is believed that an individual can go backward in his journey. Sometimes our life choices take us in the wrong direction. But even then it is only so long before we progress again.

Consciousness is a part of our permanent Self. Our experiences, actions, the consequences, our thoughts and attitudes etc. affect our Consciousness; shape it. In turn, the state of Consciousness directly influences our thoughts, behaviour, perception.

Karma and reincarnation are far too complex to predict. Various stories have been written as examples of what might happen depending on our state of Consciousness. It can include the species we reincarnate into (ie/ if you spend most of your time with animals and are always thinking about a particular animal, you (the Consciousness) may be attracted to enter the body of that particular animal in the next life) or the emotional state (if you die as an angry person due to life experiences that have made you an angry person, you will be born with that anger and it will stay with you until you work hard on personal improvement), or if you have attachments to a particular place or people you may be reincarnated nearby.

The very things that shape who we are attract us to our next lives, our next experiences.

 

[I-Ching]

That is why I do not believe in a God in a traditional sense or Karma because people do in fact do bad things and completely get away with it. If there was such a God or Karma then am sure the world would be a far juster and fairer place than the one I am a part of.

Karma only makes sense if combined with reincarnation. You may not see with your limited eyes how justice takes place but in a persons next life they reap what they have sown in this life.

 

[Madhuri]

Karma only makes sense if combined with reincarnation. You may not see with your limited eyes how justice takes place but in a persons next life they reap what they have sown in this life.

Exactly, it is obvious to everyone that we do not receive the karmas of our current life. For karma to be real, so must reincarnation.

 

[Onkara]

I agree. Change does not imply extinction. If all change occurs IN Krishna/Brahman etc, then everything is just 'recycled' (to put it very simply).

 

[zenzero]

Friend Onkara,

I agree. Change does not imply extinction.

Changes does imply evolution and extinction means a

The condition of being extinguished.

i.e. a form is no more [extinguished] which happens when we speak of evolution too where a form [stage] gets extinguished for a new.
When we speak of karma and reincarnation then also it is similar. It is not that the same gets reintroduced with memory etc. Something gets extinguished and something takes its place but the link can never be proven or perceived by the mind as the karma [a vibration] goes back to the void and as the void is emptiness and so it hold/transforms nothing and the vibration returns in another form.

Love & rgds

 

[Muffled]

In eastern religions we find the idea that your karma will determine what you will be reincarnated as. If you have lived a bad life, you will be reincarnated into a lower creature. If you have lived a good life, you will be reincarnated into a higher creature.

Here is the problem. If you have lived a bad life, and you are reincarnated into a lower creature, isn't your situation only going to be that much more difficult? To my understanding, if your current life has made living a good life difficult and you've steered ofcourse and lived a bad life, then shouldn't your next life have improved conditions so that you will have a better chance of making progress? Why make things even more difficult for beings who are already having problems making progress?

That is transmigration. I dont believe in it because God informs me that there is a physical link to the spirit in humans that is not present in other physical beings.

It is God who provides a person with a life on earth. He does what He believes is best for a person. If the life is difficult God evidently believes that it is a test that can be passed. A difficult life is not certain to engender an evil life.

There is a question of justice. God judges whether it is better for a person to be punished for sins or not. Some people pay for their sins before they die. That could be called Karma. Some people pay for their sins in the next life. That can be called Karma.

It doesn't matter. Salvation is always at hand. Sometimes a difficult situation prompts a person to call on God for salvation.

 

[atanu]

That is transmigration. I dont believe in it because God informs me that there is a physical link to the spirit in humans that is not present in other physical beings.

Thank you Muffled for the nice post. I just wanted to ask, why the physical link cannot be removed by God, if wished so?

 

[white_lotus]

The Buddha referred to the 'workings of karma' as one of the imponderables. Instead of wasting time trying to figure it out, you might as well meditate and liberate yourself.

I think that this answers the question. Figuring out the karma theory isn't something that's possible. I think that that means that we might as well ignore the karma theory altogether. Just do whatever you can in life.

 

[tayla]

isn't your situation only going to be that much more difficult?

Yes, this is the fatal flaw, proving the doctrine of karma to be false.

Also, as I understand it, your choices in this life depend on your karma which was passed on from the previous life. Thus, there is no learning from mistakes and no possibility of improving and progressing.

 

[ajay0]

In eastern religions we find the idea that your karma will determine what you will be reincarnated as. If you have lived a bad life, you will be reincarnated into a lower creature. If you have lived a good life, you will be reincarnated into a higher creature.

Here is the problem. If you have lived a bad life, and you are reincarnated into a lower creature, isn't your situation only going to be that much more difficult? To my understanding, if your current life has made living a good life difficult and you've steered ofcourse and lived a bad life, then shouldn't your next life have improved conditions so that you will have a better chance of making progress? Why make things even more difficult for beings who are already having problems making progress?

Karma is about cause and effect.

If you understand and perform your duties intelligently, there is no reason why your life can be bad.

As Aurobindo stated, " Evil is but ignorance, misapplication and ill-health."

It is but ignorance that prevents us from knowing our duties properly, and misapplication due to lack of diligence and carelesness that prevents us from executing our duties properly even if we know it.

If you understand your duties properly through wisdom, and execute it well, you will have a good life in the present and in the future life too.

The onus is on the individual and not on the situation or circumstances.

This is why Swami Vivekananda taught thus...

“Stand up , be bold , be strong ! Know that you are the creator of your own destiny . All the strength and succour you want is within yourself.”


“Be a light unto yourself; betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth. Look not for refuge to anyone besides yourselves.” ~ Buddha


Let a man lift himself by his own self alone, let him not lower himself; for this self alone is the friend of oneself and this self alone is the enemy of oneself. ~ Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita)


Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude. ~ Thomas Jefferson



External aids are helpful but the ultimate help comes from one's attitude alone.