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The Problem of Consciousness

atanu

Member
Premium Member
The 'I exist' is generated by the physical brain chemistry which can be measured using functional MRI scanners.

I deal in evidence and facts, philosophy deals ideas

Sometimes it is impossible to make one see that ‘I’ is the datum — my brain, my observations, my thinking, my theories — all are contingent upon the presence called ‘I’. If you do not agree then this thread is not for you.

Philosophy informs of ontology and epistemology, and includes observational data.

...
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
That's a good question, that was going to be another follow up I had if you didn't explain what that meant. :blush: I'm unclear how "fundamental" reality is distinct from just "reality." Reality is that which exists.

I request you please see post 6.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Sometimes it is impossible to make one see that ‘I’ is the datum — my brain, my observations, my thinking, my theories — all are contingent upon the presence called ‘I’. If you do not agree then this thread is not for you.

Philosophy informs of ontology and epistemology, and includes observational data.

...

But philosophy is not always representative if reality which is well defined. Moulding the idea of reality to some philosophical idea does not help language.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
The idea of what is fundamental reality can vary from person to person. Currently, however, we consider that physics informs us about the objective fundamental reality. Currently, mass, angular momentum, and spin are three basic parameters that are supposed to characterise the fundamental material that constitutes the black holes to the universe. This fundamental reality, as peer Seager, is not available to us.

I don't understand how the last sentence follows from the rest. The physical reality being described is available to us, via observation/measurement and experiment.

Seager formulates the problem: How that which is unassailably present to the mind but how it could arise from un-present physical reality?

https://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/~seager/ipe.pdf

...

I see, so is this just another way of asking how consciousness arose from unconscious things?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I don't understand how the last sentence follows from the rest. The physical reality being described is available to us, via observation/measurement and experiment.

Did you read the post and the linked content in 13 minutes? Fast. :)

No, my friend, your statement is wrong. The consciousness of self is the only direct perception data. It is not sense-mind mediated, all other perceptions are mediated. The self-awareness is more direct and more intimate than an apple on your palm.

Furthermore, as per the tenets of materialism, you never see the objective universe but a representational copy of it. Relational quantum mechanics suggests physics might be a science of perceptions, not observer-independent reality

You have no way to know the objective reality ever. And atanu is not claiming this. Below I have cited four different sets of studies that all suggest that realism is not tenable in light of quantum mechanics. They suggest that what we actually see is only the dashboard and not the objective reality out there.

1. Objects of consciousness

The full paper by Hoffman and Prakash is fortunately available at the above link.

Using evolutionary games, the authors establish that the natural selection could not have favoured a consciousness geared towards finding the truth -- perception only guides the adaptive behaviour. Hoffman et al suggest, based on considerations of both quantum physics and evolutionary biology, a model of 'Conscious agents' with which they are able to arrive correctly at certain quantum predictions. They simply assign the physical parameters such as mass etc. to the conscious agents rather than to particles. The full paper is a fascinating read.

Donald Hoffman's study suggests that what we see (internally) of the external world is a dashboard and not the actual external world. Seeing the truth as it is can be inefficient and even fatal. His evolutionary model game shows that the 'Truth' cannot be the result of natural selection. Hoffman further proposes and constructs a model with inter-linked conscious agents to validate his thesis.

There are three separate scientific findings that support Donald Hoffman's thesis that what we see of the universe is a dashboard and not the universe itself. These three works are listed below with short descriptions so that readers (if any) can drill deep themselves.

2. An experimental test of non-local realism
Simon Gröblacher et al. 2007 in 'An experimental test of non-local realism' destroy the hope for non-local realism -- that there is an objective reality independent of the observation itself.

3. Relational Quantum Mechanics
Physicist Carlo Rovelli in his relational quantum mechanics (RQM), shows that there should be no absolute, observer-independent physical quantities. All physical quantities—the whole physical universe—must be relative to the observer. The notion that we all share the same physical environment must, therefore, be an illusion.

It seems dangerously close to solipsism but it is not if seen from the perspective of ‘objective idealism’. Making sense of RQM by inferring that our surrounding environment is essentially mental—a view called ‘objective idealism’—avoids solipsism.

Massimiliano Proietti and collaborators at Heriot-Watt University, in the U.K., seem to have validated RQM of Carlo Rovelli.

Experimental test of local observer-independence

I note that RQM essentially upholds the Copenhagen Interpretation. Thus this version of Quantum Mechanics suggests that there may well be no objective physical world.

3. Cognitive Dynamics: From Attractors to Active Inference - IEEE Journals & Magazine
Karl Friston et al., 2014 have shown that, if an organism is to represent the states of the external environment in order to properly navigate this environment, it must do so in an encoded, inferential manner. If the organism were to simply mirror the states of the external environment in its own internal states, it would not be able to maintain its structural integrity. Perceptual encoding is necessary for the organism to resist entropy and thus remain alive.

The findings of the above three studies support each other but seen from the perspective of ‘realism’ seem weird. On the other hand, seen from the perspective of ‘objective idealism’ these three findings make sense.

So, actually the objective reality is never available to you via mind-senses. Only direct perception of self-awareness is unmediated by mind-senses.

I see, so is this just another way of asking how consciousness arose from unconscious things?

Is it wrong to point out that while our experience is of direct presence, the so-called 'fundamental parameters: mass, angular momentum, and charge are devoid of such qualities? Should one not read the author to at least appreciate neutral analysis from an academic point of view?

...
 
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Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Did you read the post and the linked content in 13 minutes? Fast. :)

Definitely not. I read your post. If even being able to reply to your thread requires extensive background academic reading, I apologize for intruding. I have minimal QM knowledge so I'll leave that research to someone else who has more education in the field to discuss it.

No, my friend, your statement is wrong. The consciousness of self is the only direct perception data. It is not sense-mind mediated, all other perceptions are mediated. The self-awareness is more direct and more intimate than an apple on your palm.

I don't see how. Consciousness of self is no more obvious than consciousness of some object, be it an apple or a car or a post on RF. All of them are labels for things in our perceptual awareness.

Furthermore, as per the tenets of materialism, you never see the objective universe but a representational copy of it. Relational quantum mechanics suggests physics might be a science of perceptions, not observer-independent reality

To me, this distinction is philosophically interesting, but functionally irrelevant. If we're in a dream, or the Matrix, or seeing an illusion, then the facsimile were seeing is so good that's it's literally indistinguishable from what we'd expect if our perceptions did actually reflect reality.

Is it wrong to point out that while our experience is of direct presence, the so-called 'fundamental parameters: mass, angular momentum, and charge are devoid of such qualities? Should one not read the author to at least appreciate neutral analysis from an academic point of view?

...

Happy to read when I have additional time. Sorry if my reply jumped the gun.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Definitely not. I read your post. If even being able to reply to your thread requires extensive background academic reading, I apologize for intruding. I have minimal QM knowledge so I'll leave that research to someone else who has more education in the field to discuss it.

No apology needed at all., friend.

I don't see how. Consciousness of self is no more obvious than consciousness of some object, be it an apple or a car or a post on RF. All of them are labels for things in our perceptual awareness.

That you exist is questionable? Is not that the datum on which all other attributions ae built? Do you mean to say that you have doubt that you exist but you are sure that you exist because your brain chemicals shake?

This is the. most crucial point. Even to say what you have said above your aware existence is necessary.

This is the premise of Seager. Seager formulates the problem: How that which is unassailably present to the mind (the pure awareness of existence) could arise from un-present physical reality?

https://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/~seager/ipe.pdf

He takes us on a tour of a few possibilities: Idealism, Panpsychism and Emergentism, that he calls the radical wing of consciousness studies.
...
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Sometimes it is impossible to make one see that ‘I’ is the datum — my brain, my observations, my thinking, my theories — all are contingent upon the presence called ‘I’. If you do not agree then this thread is not for you.

Philosophy informs of ontology and epistemology, and includes observational data.

...
Do you observe self, when self is the only OWNER?

As a reality of a question that humans ask other humans, who made you God?

When God O is the stone and your own science AI recorded feed back of shared multi science male psyches...the greater science self....was a multi male group....why you enforce in our life today that same group cult mentality...science mentality...the greater science mind he says....multi males.

So you falsify the ownership holiness of one self, one equal self to all other equal presences, for ONE is stated to multi diverse.

Yet many one selves in group mentality being science do not pay homage to one and equality for they constantly impose I am allowed to force my science into your life.

And then own a huge amount of excuses for that claim.

Whereas in healer medical awareness if a human is in need then you simply think of a way to assist that human...and that situation is not scientific, it is NATURAL...what you lie about....just because you began using machines.

Hence most of the evil minded male science philosophical quotes, he first gained from the studies of dead bodies...which about says it all.....consciousness.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
That you exist is questionable? Is not that the datum on which all other attributions ae built? Do you mean to say that you have doubt that you exist but you are sure that you exist because your brain chemicals shake?

No. What I mean is that the thing I call "myself" is actually a mental construction just like any other construct, such as apple, car, spouse, or justice. Whether awareness is focused on an apple or its focused on the thing I call myself, both are still some mental object in awareness. One isn't more "real" than the other.

This is the. most crucial point. Even to say what you have said above your aware existence is necessary.

Awareness is necessary, no doubt; the definition of "self," however, isn't any more firm a foundation upon which to build your epistemology than any other mental object. All these things, including your "self," are contingent, changing things that are actually dependent for their definitions on other things. And the borders delineating one thing from another, including our "self" from other things, are much fuzzier and less permanent than we are often comfortable admitting. Thich Nhat Hanh calls this concept interbeing.

This is the premise of Seager. Seager formulates the problem: How that which is unassailably present to the mind (the pure awareness of existence) could arise from un-present physical reality?

We've discussed this before, as I recall. There is no "pure awareness of existence," that I can tell. All awareness is an awareness of some thing, some mental object. The self is an object like anything else (that is the definition of self-awareness: to make an object of one's own subject).
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
No. What I mean is that the thing I call "myself" is actually a mental construction just like any other construct, such as apple, car, spouse, or justice. Whether awareness is focused on an apple or its focused on the thing I call myself, both are still some mental object in awareness. One isn't more "real" than the other.

Awareness is necessary, no doubt; the definition of "self," however, isn't any more firm a foundation upon which to build your epistemology than any other mental object. All these things, including your "self," are contingent, changing things that are actually dependent for their definitions on other things. And the borders delineating one thing from another, including our "self" from other things, are much fuzzier and less permanent than we are often comfortable admitting. Thich Nhat Hanh calls this concept interbeing.

We've discussed this before, as I recall. There is no "pure awareness of existence," that I can tell. All awareness is an awareness of some thing, some mental object. The self is an object like anything else (that is the definition of self-awareness: to make an object of one's own subject).

I know many western people wrongly think that Buddhism teaches nihilism and so superpose ideas of 'transitoriness' on reality too. Buddha did teach about an unborn Nirvana.

So, I request you for a moment to put aside all other notions and ask yourself "Is saying all these things that I say Is possible without a reality to know, think, feel, and imagine?"

Please be very open (keep aside nihilism fr a moment) and be honest.

...
 

Martin

Spam, wonderful spam (bloody vikings!)
No apology needed at all., friend.



That you exist is questionable? Is not that the datum on which all other attributions ae built? Do you mean to say that you have doubt that you exist but you are sure that you exist because your brain chemicals shake?

This is the. most crucial point. Even to say what you have said above your aware existence is necessary.

This is the premise of Seager. Seager formulates the problem: How that which is unassailably present to the mind (the pure awareness of existence) could arise from un-present physical reality?

https://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/~seager/ipe.pdf

He takes us on a tour of a few possibilities: Idealism, Panpsychism and Emergentism, that he calls the radical wing of consciousness studies.
...

I'm still not clear what Seager means by "presence". Is it something like self-awareness, the knowledge of "me" experiencing stuff?
And is this what the phrase "pure awareness of existence" is referring to? Or something else?
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I know many western people wrongly think that Buddhism teaches nihilism and so superpose ideas of 'transitoriness' on reality too. Buddha did teach about an unborn Nirvana.

So, I request you for a moment to put aside all other notions and ask yourself "Is saying all these things that I say Is possible without a reality to know, think, feel, and imagine?"

Please be very open (keep aside nihilism fr a moment) and be honest.

...

I'm not speaking of nihilism. I'm also not claiming that reality doesn't exist. Thich Nhat Hanh is not a Westerner, and I assume he's roughly familiar with the teachings of Buddhism. ;)

I would ask you to go back and reread what I actually wrote. No where did I claim reality doesn't exist. I made a point about how we define the self.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I'm still not clear what Seager means by "presence". Is it something like self-awareness, the knowledge of "me" experiencing stuff?
And is this what the phrase "pure awareness of existence" is referring to? Or something else?

Yes. I think, Seeger, by 'presence' means the foundational self-awareness.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
...
We've discussed this before, as I recall. There is no "pure awareness of existence," that I can tell. All awareness is an awareness of something, some mental object. The self is an object like anything else (that is the definition of self-awareness: to make an object of one's own subject).

I'm not speaking of nihilism. I'm also not claiming that reality doesn't exist. Thich Nhat Hanh is not a Westerner, and I assume he's roughly familiar with the teachings of Buddhism. ;)

I would ask you to go back and reread what I actually wrote. No where did I claim reality doesn't exist. I made a point about how we define the self.

Yeah. I have snipped your post and highlighted the portion on which my 'nihilism' comment was based upon.

Please read the red highlighted part. What you, essentially, are saying is "There is no awareness as such but for 'somethings', which only give rise to awareness of 'something'.

Are you not saying that there is no awareness but for 'things'? You are saying "There is no awareness. Only 'somethings' give rise to awareness". Is not that what you are pointing to?

Think. Think. Think.



:shrug:
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
According to William Seager of the University of Toronto.

The problem of consciousness can be summed up in a simple inconsistent triad:

1. The fundamental reality is entirely un-present.
2. There is presence.
3. There is no way to generate presence from the un-presence.

Premise 2 is not negotiable. So, how to get a solution in the most parsimonious way?
...

Suggestions any?

Do you know what's my main contention with Idealism? Idealism is actually a form of anthropocentrism. Humans lack an explanation on how they can be conscious and then they proceed to claim that this consciousness, which is central to them, is also central or primary to the entire universe.

Regarding your question per se, one would need only to disagree with #3.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Do you know what's my main contention with Idealism? Idealism is actually a form of anthropocentrism. Humans lack an explanation on how they can be conscious and then they proceed to claim that this consciousness, which is central to them, is also central or primary to the entire universe.

No, I do not see it that way. Awareness is evident in all animal and plant beings (and also implicit in physical laws, IMO).

Regarding your question per se, one would need only to disagree with #3.

Please explain or cite references to models that derive 'awareness' from mass, angular momentum, and charge.
 
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Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah. I have snipped your post and highlighted the portion on which my 'nihilism' comment was based upon.

Please read the red highlighted part. What you, essentially, are saying is "There is no awareness as such but for 'somethings', which only give rise to awareness of 'something'.

Are you not saying that there is no awareness but for 'things'? You are saying "There is no awareness. Only 'somethings' give rise to awareness". Is not that what you are pointing to?

Think. Think. Think.



:shrug:

I am saying that to be aware is to be aware of some thing, not that "there is no awareness."

And that also isn't nihilism.

Nihilism | Definition of Nihilism by Lexico
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I am saying that to be aware is to be aware of some thing, not that "there is no awareness."

Okay. But meditation is ultimately being aware of the awareness. So, we come to the first point of Seager that 'Presence' is given.


Well. Nihilism is extreme scepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence -- as per your reference. And I indeed meant that. Some wannabe Buddhists do interpret Buddhism like that. They say that there is nothing but 'dependent arising'. If that were so then one would not discern Nirvana (and the escape from samsara) since Nirvana has no objects.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
No, I do not see it that way. Awareness is evident in all animal and plant beings (and also implicit in physical laws, IMO).

Awareness is not evident in plants nor implicit in physical laws.

Please explain or cite references to models that derive 'awareness' from mass, angular momentum, and charge.

There is none, much like there is also no model that can prove that consciousness is fundamental to the universe.
 
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