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The Problem of Consciousness

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Now you're preaching. I didn't deny the experience of samadhi, I questioned the equivalence of samadhi and deep-sleep,

I am sad that you perceive preaching. I never said that samadhi is equivalent of deep sleep. Where did I say it? Turiya is the seer of all states.

I've already explained that citta is a conditioned dhamma, subject to conditions.
Buddhism isn't a school of Hinduism, or a version of Advaita, or whatever. You're out of your depth here.

I have shown from Abhdhamma that ‘citta’ is an ultimate.

We may agree to disagree.

But I understand that truth is one without a second, religious boundaries are boundaries of vijnana — of mind. But prajna arises (or is evident) only when the boundaries of vijnana are dissolved, and then the discernment is never lost.
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Martin

Spam, wonderful spam (bloody vikings!)
I am sad that you perceive preaching. I never said that samadhi is equivalent of deep sleep. Where did I say it? Turiya is the seer of all states.



I have shown from Abhdhamma that ‘citta’ is an ultimate.

We may agree to disagree.

But I understand that truth is one without a second, religious boundaries are boundaries of vijnana — of mind. But prajna arises (or is evident) only when the boundaries of vijnana are dissolved, and then the discernment is never lost.
...

You have misunderstood the paramattha classification, probably because you're viewing Buddhism through an Advaita lens.
Citta (heart/mind) isn't an "ultimate", it's a conditioned dhamma, and subject to the three marks (anicca, dukkha and anatta). Only Nibbana is unconditioned, and even that is anatta.
If you really want to understand Buddhism, then join a Buddhist sangha, or spend some time on Buddhist forums, or whatever. Or just stick with Advaita teachings, of which you seem to have a good understanding

As for deep sleep, you were arguing that the same brain waves are present as in samadhi. I pointed out that deep sleep is inaccessible as an experience, which you had previously acknowledged. Given that inaccessibility, views about deep sleep are speculative. It's interesting to hear your Advaita beliefs about it, but my point is that they are beliefs, rather than facts.
 
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Martin

Spam, wonderful spam (bloody vikings!)
What is wisdom? Does it happen in absence of consciousness? And what is citta? Is it not an ultimate?

I do not compare apples and oranges. But it is wise to distinguish between ‘vijnana’, prajnana, and citta.

Ultimately, Nirvana could not be discerned if ‘discernment’ is not an intrinsic property, since there cannot be a second besides the Nirvana.

Does anyone imagine that Avilokitesvara gave up all consciousness and yet discerned Nirvana and then regained consciousness to teach of Nirvana?

No, During various dhyana processes the forms of vijnana is all lost — but discernment is not lost.

If discernment was lost there would be no knowledge of Nirvana as the unborn, unformed, and uncreated realm.

...

Obviously panna (wisdom) is not vinnana (sense-consciousness). Panna is a quality, while vinnana is a function. And Nibbana is an object of mano-vinnana.
And note that panna is not an "intrinsic quality" in Buddhism, it is developed via practice.

Using phrases like "there cannot be a second besides the Nirvana" confirms that you're still looking through an Advaita lens, and therefore missing the point. Nirvana is not like Brahman, it really isn't.
You mentioned the Heart Sutra, but of course sunyata (emptiness) is incompatible with Brahman, just as anatta is incompatible with Atman. Further evidence that Buddhism and Hinduism say very different things.

Actually Theravada and Mahayana say different things, and muddling up Abhidhamma with the Heart Sutra is bound to cause confusion. The terminology is different. It would be like claiming that all schools of Hinduism say the same thing, which would be nonsensical.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
1) You're arguing from ignorance. Even if there is no such model at this time, that doesn't establish that there can't ever possibly be such a model.
kinda like searching for the grave of Eve

just to see if that rib can be found
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Seager himself discusses three radical alternatives: Idealism, Panpsychism and Emergentism. I asked for opinions regarding these three positions.

...

Emergentism is so close to materialism that we might as well call it materialism.
 

Martin

Spam, wonderful spam (bloody vikings!)
'prajnanam brahman' (consciousness is brahman) is in Aiteriya Upanishad. 'satyam-jnanam-anantam brahman' (truth-knowledge-infinite is brahman) is from Taittiriya Upanishad.

For some who have shown interest, I have often pointed the following video for an exhaustive exposition of the 'satyam-jnanam-anantam brahman' by Swami Sarvapriyananda. If interested, you may wish to hear the lecture. It is a bit longish but I think the understanding that takes place is worth the time spent.


...

I did some research on "Prajnanam Brahman", and it means something like "Brahman is intelligence". And in the Mandukya Upanishad we have: "Prajna is the master of all. He is the knower and source of all..." I think this is pointing towards Atman, and therefore to Brahman.
So saying that "Prajnanam Brahman" means "Consciousness is Brahman" seems to be missing the point here. Or is this an Advaita thing?

Anyway, our discussion about the different ways that the Dharmic traditions view consciousness is really a religious debate, and probably off-topic in a philosophical discussion about consciousness.
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
@Left Coast @Meerkat

Sorry for the great delay in response. First. It is good t differ since differences foster learning if conversations are carried out in a civil manner. I hate

Before I can actually take up the OP, I need to clear up a doubt about Nibbana, which is defined as unborn, unformed, uncreated and it is said to be the ultimate freedom. I wish to know if our consciousness (the power of discernment is dependent on 'forms', then how the 'unformed' ultimate 'Nibbana' will be discerned?

I will cite the actual verse here to clarify my point. Please note the role of the unborn Nibbana in the discernment of freedom.

"There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned."

Ud 8.3
...
 

Martin

Spam, wonderful spam (bloody vikings!)
@Left Coast @Meerkat

Sorry for the great delay in response. First. It is good t differ since differences foster learning if conversations are carried out in a civil manner. I hate

Before I can actually take up the OP, I need to clear up a doubt about Nibbana, which is defined as unborn, unformed, uncreated and it is said to be the ultimate freedom. I wish to know if our consciousness (the power of discernment is dependent on 'forms', then how the 'unformed' ultimate 'Nibbana' will be discerned?

I will cite the actual verse here to clarify my point. Please note the role of the unborn Nibbana in the discernment of freedom.

"There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned."

Ud 8.3
...

In Buddhism mind is the 6th sense, and Nibbana is an object of mind-consciousness.
You're still viewing Buddhism through an Advaita/Hindu lens, that is simply not going to work. There are fundamental differences.

Back to topic?
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
In Buddhism mind is the 6th sense, and Nibbana is an object of mind-consciousness.
You're still viewing Buddhism through an Advaita/Hindu lens, that is simply not going to work. There are fundamental differences.

Back to topic?

Nibbana is an object? 'Object' for whom? 'Object' for whose mind? Can we see some Buddhist scripture?

Nibbana is the ultimate realisation. Nibbana is unborn, unformed, and uncreated. How will it be realised? Can it be realised as the formless by the formed 'brain' or by the body? Can it be realised unless the quality of discernment is intrinsic in the formless itself?

I generally bow down with folded hands in front of younger people and request them to contemplate on what they hear. That is the method of Advaita -- sharavana, manana, and nididhyasana (hearing, mentation, meditation and samadhi).

...

Or YMMV.
 

Martin

Spam, wonderful spam (bloody vikings!)
Nibbana is an object? 'Object' for whom? 'Object' for whose mind? Can we see some Buddhist scripture?

Nibbana is the ultimate realisation. Nibbana is unborn, unformed, and uncreated. How will it be realised? Can it be realised as the formless by the formed 'brain' or by the body? Can it be realised unless the quality of discernment is intrinsic in the formless itself?

I generally bow down with folded hands in front of younger people and request them to contemplate on what they hear. That is the method of Advaita -- sharavana, manana, and nididhyasana (hearing, mentation, meditation and samadhi).

...

Or YMMV.

This is a pointless discussion between a non-Buddhist and an ex-Buddhist.

I suggest we return to the topic, which is about the nature of consciousness, or where consciousness comes from, or something (the OP was a muddle).

There seem to be three basic options:
1. Consciousness depends on matter.
2. Matter depends on consciousness.
3. There is a mutual dependency.

I think you subscribe to No. 2 - is that right?
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
This is a pointless discussion between a non-Buddhist and an ex-Buddhist.

I suggest we return to the topic, which is about the nature of consciousness, or where consciousness comes from, or something (the OP was a muddle).

There seem to be three basic options:
1. Consciousness depends on matter.
2. Matter depends on consciousness.
3. There is a mutual dependency.

I think you subscribe to No. 2 - is that right?

I feel that If one is sincere and open, discussions can be most illuminating. But it is not necessary that a narrative will be accepted right away. Often some mentation is required before we can agree to even consider a proposition.

I had written a summary of my understanding on the subject in another thread.

Materialistic Non-Duality

...........

You are of course correct that we should revert to the OP.
...
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Unfortunately, this thread got stuck with disagreement over the very premise of the paper that there exists an explanatory gap. I have therefore prepared a summary of the paper for anyone who may wish to scan the main points without reading the full paper. The paper follows the following flow.

The difficulties with the Physicalist explanation of consciousness

The paper defines Consciousness as sentience or the way things are present to the mind.

“Physical realism’ is the currently dominant view that the physical world is (1) independent of consciousness and (2) fundamental or not reducible to anything non-physical — there is nothing ‘over and above’ the physical.

But as science is restricted to revealing the structure of the world but not its intrinsic nature, the physicalist owes an account of how subjectivity attaches to a physical nature which is, in its basic form, entirely devoid of it. The brain is a complicated organ with a multitude of parts. If consciousness is not a fundamental physical feature we need a story of how it emerges from the interactivity of the brain’s purely physical constituents, whether or not the final complex state is identical to a conscious state. in the end, the scientific conception has to answer to our experience.

Currently, physicalists take two broad approaches to answer this. The first approach, the so-called ‘proud’ Kantian position. Proponents of this approach assert that physics has revealed to us the nature of the thing-in-itself “beneath’ and generating the empirically accessible ‘real world’. The generator of the totality of the world-experience is the arrangement of the basic physical entities along with the laws which govern them. But science does not support the above. Evidently, most scientists do acknowledge that science reveals only the structural or relational properties of the world and its knowledge is not the Truth.

The second approach is ‘Kantian Humility’ which says that although we know a lot about the mathematical structure of the system of dispositions which define the fundamental physical properties that sciences deal with, we know little or nothing about the intrinsic nature of whatever it is that the world is made of. In this approach, the question of the background which generates the world-suggestiveness of our experiences remains open. The axiom adopted is that the mental properties can be completely characterized in relational or structural terms with no residual appeal to intrinsic properties required beyond those grounding the dispositions of physics. This can be broadly understood endorsing functionalism for all mental properties.

The primary challenge that consciousness intuitively presents, however, is precise that there is an intrinsic residue left over after we have tried to characterize it in purely structural or relational terms. Inverted colour-spectrum thought experiments clearly illustrate this unavoidable lacuna.

The paper goes on to outlines three alternate philosophies regarding consciousness: Idealism, Panpsychism, and Emergentism.

Idealism

Idealism is the view that consciousness (or the conscious mind as the entity which has consciousness) is a fundamental feature of reality. It might be natural to consider that if the physical world has no place for consciousness, perhaps instead the realm of consciousness can assimilate the physical. What we call the physical world, the world we experience in everyday life has its core being in the realm of experience itself rather than some putative background which can vary independently of experience. It is experience and its organization which is metaphysically fundamental. The unity of the physical world is explicable within this framework. The experiential metaphysical foundation comprises many minds whose totality of different viewpoints underpins a single physical world by joint concordance and consilience.

Without a preexisting commitment to physicalism, the view that in consciousness there are intrinsic features present to the mind is the more parsimonious approach. However, this approach may require very substantive changes in the scientific method that relies on ‘Realism’ and ‘Methodological naturalism’.

Contd.
...
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
(Contd. from the previous post)

Panpsychism


One way to acknowledge the gravity of the problem of consciousness while respecting the advances of physical science is to adopt panpsychism — the view that some form of consciousness is a fundamental and ubiquitous feature of nature.

Bertrand Russel held that science was restricted to revealing the structure of the world but not its intrinsic nature. The structure requires something non-structural in order to make the transition from mere abstraction to concrete existence the core of subjectivity common to all consciousness. Russellian Monism holds that consciousness, in its most basic form of bare subjectivity, is the intrinsic nature which ‘grounds’ or makes concrete the system of relationally defined structure discerned by physics. By and large, we have no access to this level of reality except for a limited acquaintance with it in our own experience. According to modern proponents (Michael Lockwood, 1989, p. 159), consciousness provides a kind of “window” on to our brains’ thereby revealing some of the intrinsic qualities of the states and processes which go to make up the material world. If we grant that in consciousness we catch a glimpse of the intrinsic bedrock of the world, we would expect that the fundamental psychic feature will be coupled to some fundamental physical feature and will thus be more or less spread out across the entire universe.

This view is distinct from idealism. Panpsychism denies that consciousness exhausts fundamental reality. Physical objects are not sequences, or potential sequences, of experiences. They have a mind-independent reality. Stars, galaxies and planets did really exist before any consciousness which could experience them came into being. According to some panpsychists, however, (Timothy Sprigge for example, 2010, pp. 209-11) only a form of holistic absolute idealism could accommodate the genuine relatedness of conscious beings within a single universe.

Critics charge that panpsychism is absurd because it claims that rocks are conscious beings. It is questioned that the simple physical entities of the world exhibit no sign of possessing consciousness.

Panpsychist quips that the above charge is somewhat like the claim that since the electric charge is a fundamental feature of the world everything must be charged and have more or less the same charge. Although the fundamental entities which physics posits as the constituents of familiar composites (electrons, quarks) are electrically charged, the composites themselves generally lack charge. Similarly in regards to consciousness, according to the panpsychist, most entities, and all the ordinary objects we encounter in our experience, are not fundamental but are composite. Furthermore, panpsychist asks, what empirical evidence exists that individual electrons gravitate? There is absolutely no detectable trace of a gravitational field. Why expect the elementary units of consciousness to give signs of consciousness discernible to us?

The panpsychist assigns to fundamental entities a low-level or ‘weak’ consciousness, a form of unimaginable simplicity and self-opacity. Panpsychism does not ascribe consciousness as we know it to everything. And the panpsychist holds that the relation between the ‘elementary units’ of consciousness and more complex forms is not identity. The panpsychist argues (William Kingdon Clifford 1886, p. 26) that complex consciousness exists, and since we cannot suppose that so enormous a jump from one creature to another should have occurred at any point in the process of evolution as the introduction of a fact entirely different and absolutely separate from the physical fact, consciousness must be presumed to exist at the fundamental level of reality.

The second charge against panpsychism is ‘vacuity’— that the panpsychist is only saying that matter possesses an indefinable something which ‘grounds’ consciousness, a claim shared with orthodox physicalism. This is countered easily since panpsychism, unlike physicalism, envisages an intrinsic phenomenal consciousness.

Emergentism

Since panpsychism introduces an elementary form of bare subjectivity, which is associated with elementary physical entities, and since it wants to allow for a distinction between conscious and non-conscious composites, panpsychism faces the challenge of explicating how ‘mental chemistry’ works, or is even possible, a problem known as the ‘combination’ problem. This provides a motivation to examine forms of emergentism.

In very broad terms, a property of X is emergent if none of X’s constituents possesses it. Liquidity is an emergent feature of water; neither oxygen nor hydrogen atoms (let alone their constituent quarks and electrons) have the property of being liquid.

The idea of ‘mental chemistry’ as an explicit system describing the emergence of complex states of consciousness goes back to John Stuart Mill. The essence of this form of emergence is that it denies that the emergent properties of X are determined solely by the properties of X’s constituents and the laws which govern their interactions. That is, in order for the emergent property to appear, there must be ‘extra’ laws of nature which specifically govern ontological emergence. This form of emergentism is known as ‘radical emergence’.

The success of quantum mechanics in explaining the so-called emergent chemical properties makes it unlikely that the radical emergentism of the type proposed by John Stuart Mill exists at all. Furthermore, conservation laws militate against radical emergence. If a radically emergent property is to be causally efficacious it will have to in some way alter the motion of physical matter. This requires some flux of energy which would appear to come from nowhere and thus prima facie violate the conservation of energy.

However, if consciousness cannot be exhaustively characterized in purely structural terms, then there exists a real metaphysical barrier between it and what physics can describe. The panpsychist thus sees basic consciousness or bare subjectivity as ontologically fundamental in its own right. The combination problem for panpsychism is to explain, or even make plausible, how complex consciousness can conservatively emerge from the postulated simpler forms.

The dilemma is that the emergence of consciousness from the purely structural features outlined in physics would, however, be a very strange form of radical emergence, of doubtful coherence insofar as it holds that intrinsics emerge from the relational. On the other hand, if consciousness is, already in play (as the panpsychists hold) then we can hope for an account of mental chemistry which appeals to a more plausible conservative emergence, the general existence of which everyone should accept. But this approach leads to the combination problem, which needs solving.

One solution is that consciousness is ‘constitutive’ in the sense that the elements of basic consciousness are synchronically present in the resultant state of a complex consciousness, in some way blended or ‘added’ (Coleman 2012, Roelofs 2014). Our experience of the unity of consciousness hints that diverse simpler conscious states can unite into a more complex form in an intelligible way. The second approach sees mental chemistry as a kind of ‘fusion’ of the elementary states into a new resultant in which the original states are eliminated (Mørch 2014, Seager 2016). Proponents of this solution refer to analogies of the classical black hole and quantum entanglement in which new systems irreducible to their parts are formed.

Yet another approach is ‘cosmopsychism’ — the fundamental entity is the entire world regarded as metaphysically primary. The problem, in this case, is of de-combining cosmic consciousness into individual minds of the sort we are introspectively familiar with (Goff ming; Miller 2017).

The third option of radical emergentism, as envisaged by John Stuart Mill, still remains open.

Those of a standard physicalist persuasion will hold out hope for a conservative emergentist account of consciousness based solely upon the structural features of the world as revealed by fundamental physics. However, our growing knowledge of the brain and its intimate connections to states of consciousness gives no indication of a theoretical apparatus which makes subjective consciousness an intelligible product of basic physical processes.

Notes From: William Seager, “Radical Wing of Consciousness Studies”.
...
 
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rational experiences

Veteran Member
Coercion itself in full discussion, to cause a human to want to reason against a whole lot of words when the writer owns a very different reason for writing it.

To claim I know.

In reality, animals looked at by any human in natural life can quote, they have a conscious self animal ability to understand us. And we have a conscious ability to study and look at animals and understand them.

Yet each body is natural and self owned. Reality and very basic information that is factual....awareness in a want to compare.

Then ask self, for what reason do you human self do all the comparing? In reality, as very simple worded statements?

The real answer if you apply a detailed research of the researching, male historically as a human, is to intricately become aware of how to ANTI us, rationally.

Why the story ANTI was written as an observation of consciousness seeing its Destroyer equal.....another human. Rationally and very simply stated.

Today the occult self is so intricately studying every acute detail of the existence of a human being, rationalising if they could anti/remove us with new machines...new machines designed by study of the UFO mass, that was already stated to be ANTI our gas atmospheric mass presence.

A teaching already aware relative.

Therefore today in the use AI machines, humans who write papers that claim we are portion to bio mechanics, bots and other themes.....when males as the science self designer, science built the machines as a human, were not being harmed their own self as the designer, then when communicated the machine signals attacked their own life/mind also.

To virtually claim in bio aware conscious identification/notification that the Designer self, had been sacrificed in human life/spirit. And told self that review consciously...as the problem with his own thinking, it tells lies.

Reason that science is a liar as self identification, human and male, science did not personally own the state natural in the natural term changed by energy and mass of energy into changes. He was studying that state.

So not only did he personally not own the energy forms that changed in energy change, he also did not personally own the energy bodies and forms that got changed.

The Earth natural gases/heavens, the Earth ownership of a mountain mass and the Sun and spatial vacuum ownership UFO mass presence. He did not own any of those bodies as his idea of being the Designer. His Designs and his Design theme that relates in a huge coercive conscious reasoning, only details the reasoning that he realised he destroyed and attacked his own self by using machines......who own no consciousness or volition in the design, it needs a Creator/inventor to use and control it, not being conscious at all....as Design.

Hence we are not in science, machine. We also are not the Design thought upon consciously for the machine and formulas or for invention......the human being conscious self is just natural, self aware as a thinker and also in the statements science is a coercive liar by the use of worded statements. That claims only the superior in intelligence understands, which is irrationality itself.

For most everyday natural aware humans could care less at reading the information wondering what you wrote it for.
 
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