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The Plurality of God, The First and the Last

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
....., we're discussing the NATURE of God, not his name... yet, (which we will get to later), but right now his NATURE... ok....PICJAG,..

OK, and thanks for your reply.
I would venture to Guess that in a believer's eyes God's nature would be summed up as: God 'IS' love.
In other words, God's dominant quality is: love.
I suppose that could be a reason for John to write about God's love at 1 John 4:8.
In other words, the quality of love takes in all the other characteristics of God's Nature.
Such as: God 'has' mercy, God 'has' forgiveness and His putting up with us despite our weaknesses.
- Psalms 103:8-14; Isaiah 55:7; Romans 5:8
Because of God's principled love being His nature, then He can invite us to draw close to Him - John 4:23
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
to all, STATEMENT: the bible is clear, we can KNOW the Godhead, scripture, Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them." Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
what things was made that we can know the Godhead? well of course "US". Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:................
now we need to understand HOW or the mechanism of this plurality. and MY "ANSWER" is EQUAL SHARE, God is the EQUAL of himself in Flesh. because God cannot be divided, separated, or distinct from himself...... let me say this again, "
God cannot be divided, separated, or distinct from himself."........PICJAG, 101G.

I find in Scripture that God sent (Not Himself) but He sent His Son to Earth for us.
Pre-human heavenly Jesus is the 2nd person of the word 'us' at Genesis 1:26.
At Gen.1:26 it does Not say, " Let us Create, but it says let us ' Make '....
At Revelation 4:11 Jesus gives the credit to his God as being Creator.
So, God is Not divided, separated or distinct from Himself.
Jesus truthfully answers who he truly is at John 10:36 that he is God's Son.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him as per Revelation 3:12.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
first, thanks for the reply, second, "beginning" in CREATION, as the term applies in Genesis 1:1,
BEGINNING: H7225 רֵאשִׁית re'shiyth (ray-sheeth') n-f.

1. the first, in place, time, order or rank.................

.... and at Revelation 3:14 b John is writing about pre-human Jesus as being the beginning of the creation by God.
So, yes, pre-human created heavenly Jesus was first, in place, in time, order and rank.
This is why Colossians 1:15 can speak of pre-human heavenly Jesus as being the first born of all creation.
And 1 Corinthians 11:3 lets us know the head of Christ is God.
Jesus does Not subject himself to himself but subjects himself to his God at 1 Corinthians 15:28; John 14:28.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him as per Revelation 3:12.
Resurrected Jesus did Not appear in front of himself but in front of the person of his God at Hebrews 9:24.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
OK, and thanks for your reply.
I would venture to Guess that in a believer's eyes God's nature would be summed up as: God 'IS' love.
In other words, God's dominant quality is: love.
I suppose that could be a reason for John to write about God's love at 1 John 4:8.
In other words, the quality of love takes in all the other characteristics of God's Nature.
Such as: God 'has' mercy, God 'has' forgiveness and His putting up with us despite our weaknesses.
- Psalms 103:8-14; Isaiah 55:7; Romans 5:8
Because of God's principled love being His nature, then He can invite us to draw close to Him - John 4:23
No, not nessary, but in this topic of discussion, the nature aspect is, FIRST/"THE CREATOR", and "MAKER" of ALL THINGS, (which is in the the Beginning). and LAST/THE "REDEEMER", and "SAVIOUR", of ALL THINGS, (which is at the End). now God's Love emcompass all. but for topic discussion, it is the Nature of First and Last that is God are the nature we're discussing... ok.
be blessed.
PICJAG, 101G.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
I find in Scripture that God sent (Not Himself) but He sent His Son to Earth for us.
Pre-human heavenly Jesus is the 2nd person of the word 'us' at Genesis 1:26.
At Gen.1:26 it does Not say, " Let us Create, but it says let us ' Make '....
At Revelation 4:11 Jesus gives the credit to his God as being Creator.
So, God is Not divided, separated or distinct from Himself.
Jesus truthfully answers who he truly is at John 10:36 that he is God's Son.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him as per Revelation 3:12.
thanks again, one problen JESUS as Son, the Ordinal Last was not at Genesis 1:26 when he, God, the Ordinal First, made man, (male and female). supportive scripture. when the Pharisees question our Lord on divorcement. he, the Lord Jesus said something very important to this discussion, and here it is, Matthew 19:3 "The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?" Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female," so God at Genesis 1:26 is a "he", as the very next verse points out in Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." he and him are single person designations, not a plurality. but understand God H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') is a plurality. in "TIME", "PLACE", "RANK", and "ORDER", and the ORDER in "TIME", is God as the Ordinal FIRST, (Spirit). in due "TIME", or in the fulness of the time he came, or was sent, and manifested in flesh. supportive scripture, Galatians 4:4 "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"

so now the question is, "who is God ... OWN ...Son? the answer, he, God, himself in the equal share, or the ECHAD of HIMSELF. Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me." now to see his OWN ARM/Son, read Isaiah chapter 53, and then you will know who is "God's OWN "Son". not a biologial "son"... but "Son" as in ,G5207, huios, we suggest you use the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, for the "Son" definition.
this will answer if God is two person or one person SHARED in Flesh.

At Revelation 4:11 Jesus gives the credit to his God as being Creator.
ERROR, it is the Lord Jesus who sits on the throne in Rev 4:11.... Listen, Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." see, it is JESUS the Ordinal First who created all things in the beginning. see Isaiah 44:24, and in Glorification of his own Spirit, (see John 17:5) he, JESUS the Lord, who sits on the throne, is in amalgamation of his "OWN" Spirit. so it is the Lord Jesus as the Last, now risen and recieve power as before. because if you believe that it is the ONE whom many calls the Father, in the OT, LORD who sits on the throne, then please post book, chapter, and verse as to the Name of the One who GAVE the Father POWER? for Revelation 4:11 states, the One who sits on the throne "RECEIVIED" POWER. so if it's the Father who sits, then tell up who is more powerfulo that the Father to Give him power...... see it now?
PICJAG, 101G.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
.... and at Revelation 3:14 b John is writing about pre-human Jesus as being the beginning of the creation by God.
So, yes, pre-human created heavenly Jesus was first, in place, in time, order and rank.
This is why Colossians 1:15 can speak of pre-human heavenly Jesus as being the first born of all creation.
And 1 Corinthians 11:3 lets us know the head of Christ is God.
Jesus does Not subject himself to himself but subjects himself to his God at 1 Corinthians 15:28; John 14:28.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him as per Revelation 3:12.
Resurrected Jesus did Not appear in front of himself but in front of the person of his God at Hebrews 9:24.
ERROR, the Lord Jesus is the CREATOR of the NEW CREATION. listen, Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."
ok, put on your thinking cap... who make all thing NEW? let the bible speak, Isaiah 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." now, one more to make it plain, Isaiah 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.".
now either this is the same one person, else you have two new CREATORS. which is anti-bible. but we will not leave you in limbo, as to who it is, as said the Lord Jesus is the CREATOR of the OLD WORLD, and the NEW WORLD to come, listen to the bible, Colossians 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" see that word "were", it is a past tense designation stating he, Jesus as the Ordinal FIRST who created all things in the OLD CREATION, and NOW, in the NEW CREATION to Come he is the CREATOR if it... the NEW CREATION. for as with the OLD CREATION, we all are in it, supportive scripture, Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." and in the NEW CREATION, we LIVE and move and hasve our being in him, the Lord JESUS, who CREATED the First Earth and Heaven. for any man in Christ Jesus is a ... WHAT? .... NEW CREATION. bingo there you have it,
Jesus created the First Heaven and earth, and now he Creates the NEW heaven and Earth. please go back over the scriptures presented. thanks for the question.
Jesus does Not subject himself to himself but subjects himself to his God at 1 Corinthians 15:28; John 14:28.
Another Error on your part, I will do a topic on that later, but in the meantime lets get educate on this term "Be Subject". 1 Corinthians 15:27 "For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all".
according to the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary as a verb, it means 2. To put under or within the power of. (there is our revelation, “within” within the power of). why, why is the second definotion is correct? listen to the definition, itself.
G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so) as a verb which means 1. to subordinate
2. (reflexively) to obey
[from G5259 and G5021]
KJV: be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

THIS IS THE Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary definition at #2. definition, now why did Noah Webster translated it that way? because of the word G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so) itself, as a verb which means 1. to subordinate
2. (reflexively) to obey
[from G5259 and G5021]
KJV: be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

Notice it said, [from G5259 and G5021], FROM G5259, well lets see what it means.
G5259 ὑπό hupo
(hoop-oh') states,
1.under
2.(with the genitive case) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through)
3.(with the accusative case) of place (whither (underneath) or where (below) or time (when (at)) In the comparative, it retains the same general applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specially, covertly or moderately.
[a primary preposition]
KJV: among, by, from, in, of, under, with


there it is, notice definition #2. ((with the genitive case) of place (beneath), or with verbs and in "BE" Subkect and "BE" is a verb. so "Subject" when used ... WITH a VERB, and it is used with a verb in 1 Corinthians 15:28, "BE Subject", which chanhes the meaning of G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so). so that one little word "be" a verb now gives us the correct understanding of "Subject", which means with the verb "BE", (the agency or means, through), just as what the the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary defined when used with a verb, it means 2. To put under or within the power of. did one not read... Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." yes, all power is Given unto him who sits on the throne in Revelation 4:11.
so we suggest you re-read this post for clarity, and edification.
as said, if God willing I'll do a topic on this later... ok.

so the bottom line here on "BE" Subject, that verb, "be", it changes the whole meaning of "Subject".
be blessed,

PICJAG, 101G.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
the Godhead ROOT Scripture for this understanding is Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.".
this term “GOD” here is H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]

Was Moses also a "Godhead"? He was also called Elohim. Plural.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
ERROR, the Lord Jesus is the CREATOR of the NEW CREATION. listen, Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."
ok, put on your thinking cap... who make all thing NEW? let the bible speak, Isaiah 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." now, one more to make it plain, Isaiah 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.".
now either this is the same one person, else you have two new CREATORS. which is anti-bible. but we will not leave you in limbo, as to who it is, as said the Lord Jesus is the CREATOR of the OLD WORLD, and the NEW WORLD to come, listen to the bible, Colossians 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" see that word "were", it is a past tense designation stating he, Jesus as the Ordinal FIRST who created all things in the OLD CREATION, and NOW, in the NEW CREATION to Come he is the CREATOR if it... the NEW CREATION. for as with the OLD CREATION, we all are in it, supportive scripture, Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." and in the NEW CREATION, we LIVE and move and hasve our being in him, the Lord JESUS, who CREATED the First Earth and Heaven. for any man in Christ Jesus is a ... WHAT? .... NEW CREATION. bingo there you have it,
Jesus created the First Heaven and earth, and now he Creates the NEW heaven and Earth. please go back over the scriptures presented. thanks for the question.

Another Error on your part, I will do a topic on that later, but in the meantime lets get educate on this term "Be Subject". 1 Corinthians 15:27 "For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all".
according to the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary as a verb, it means 2. To put under or within the power of. (there is our revelation, “within” within the power of). why, why is the second definotion is correct? listen to the definition, itself.
G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so) as a verb which means 1. to subordinate
2. (reflexively) to obey
[from G5259 and G5021]
KJV: be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

THIS IS THE Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary definition at #2. definition, now why did Noah Webster translated it that way? because of the word G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so) itself, as a verb which means 1. to subordinate
2. (reflexively) to obey
[from G5259 and G5021]
KJV: be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

Notice it said, [from G5259 and G5021], FROM G5259, well lets see what it means.
G5259 ὑπό hupo
(hoop-oh') states,
1.under
2.(with the genitive case) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through)
3.(with the accusative case) of place (whither (underneath) or where (below) or time (when (at)) In the comparative, it retains the same general applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specially, covertly or moderately.
[a primary preposition]
KJV: among, by, from, in, of, under, with


there it is, notice definition #2. ((with the genitive case) of place (beneath), or with verbs and in "BE" Subkect and "BE" is a verb. so "Subject" when used ... WITH a VERB, and it is used with a verb in 1 Corinthians 15:28, "BE Subject", which chanhes the meaning of G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so). so that one little word "be" a verb now gives us the correct understanding of "Subject", which means with the verb "BE", (the agency or means, through), just as what the the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary defined when used with a verb, it means 2. To put under or within the power of. did one not read... Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." yes, all power is Given unto him who sits on the throne in Revelation 4:11.
so we suggest you re-read this post for clarity, and edification.
as said, if God willing I'll do a topic on this later... ok.

so the bottom line here on "BE" Subject, that verb, "be", it changes the whole meaning of "Subject".
be blessed,

PICJAG, 101G.

At Revelation 21:2 John sees New Jerusalem coming down from God (Revelation 3:12; Revelation 3:14 )
At Revelation 21:3 the tabernacle (tent/dwelling) of God is with mankind...
At Revelation 21:5 the seated one is God.
At Revelation 21:6 in as much as Jesus refers to his joint heirs as 'brothers' and Not sons, the Speaker is: God.
The first prophecy found at Genesis 3:15 is from God about His coming promised 'seed' or Messiah; His Son.
So, the God of the Bible is the God of Prophecy from His first prophecy in Genesis to the last one - Isaiah 44:6.
Jesus is speaking about God and giving God the credit at Revelation 4:11 as being Creator.
Jesus instructs as to Who to worship at John 4:23-24.
Revelation 22:20 has the invitation for all to pray to God for Jesus to come !
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Was Moses also a "Godhead"? He was also called Elohim. Plural.
GINOLJC, to all,
First thanks for the reply, second, ERROR on your part. the scripture I believe you're quoting is Exodus 7:1 "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." if this is the correct scripture in question, then you made a great ERROR, and here's why. notice, the LORD, the only true God, "MADE", "MADE", "MADE" him a "god", the small case "g" in god, see the difference now. men used IGNORANTLY, the term for both, but the bible makes the distinction, for if one is "MADE" then he or she is not H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym Plural, or not...... understand? for, H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym Plural, or not, is NOT MADE. we know that a "god(s)" are IDOLS, listen, 1 Chronicles 16:26 "For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.", and 1 Corinthians 8:4 "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one." so if you think H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym is the same as a "god" then you need to re-think your position on the "ONE" TRUE God.
now this is why I posted this subject matter for replies just like this, so we all can be on one accord. for if one would have read before, .... this, Exodus 4:16 "And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God." if one would have read this, one would have never used Exodus 7:1, it would have saved a lot of A. time. and B. disinformation, in an honest mistake.

so no, Moses was not a "god" in the sense of him being the H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym Plural, or not. but thanks for the reply, be blessed.....
PICJAG, 101G.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
At Revelation 21:2 John sees New Jerusalem coming down from God (Revelation 3:12; Revelation 3:14 )
At Revelation 21:3 the tabernacle (tent/dwelling) of God is with mankind...
At Revelation 21:5 the seated one is God.
At Revelation 21:6 in as much as Jesus refers to his joint heirs as 'brothers' and Not sons, the Speaker is: God.
The first prophecy found at Genesis 3:15 is from God about His coming promised 'seed' or Messiah; His Son.
So, the God of the Bible is the God of Prophecy from His first prophecy in Genesis to the last one - Isaiah 44:6.
Jesus is speaking about God and giving God the credit at Revelation 4:11 as being Creator.
Jesus instructs as to Who to worship at John 4:23-24.
Revelation 22:20 has the invitation for all to pray to God for Jesus to come !
First, thanks for the reply, second, the speaker is God? well who do you think "GOD" is? ..... yes, the Lord Jesus. you do not understand the ECHAD, or the "Diversity" of God in the ECHAD. so, let's prove this out since we're in Revelations. scripture, Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:" ok, who sent "his" angel to John? let the angel tell us who sent him. Revelation 22:6 "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done." ok URAVIP2ME, "WHO SENT HIS ANGEL?". now according to the angel, it was the Lord God of, of, of, the holy prophets. now a many of scholars have said this, "it is the LORD of the OT, God", as in Revelation 1:1 who sent his angel, and some, the JW have printed in their own bibles, (NWT) "JEHOVAH", as the one who sent his angel. 101G disagree all of them. I will not beat around the bush; I will answer the question.... NO, let the Bible God's own words answer for us... we all do trust God... RIGHT. Good so let's see, by the bible, (God), who was it that sent "HIS" angel to John. scripture, same chapter a few verses down, Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
Uh O ...... Uh O, yes, it is JESUS, yes, the Lord God of the holy prophets that sent his, his, his, angel. yes, JESUS who is "God" of the OT as well as the NT. now you have a BIG problem, because you now have to go back to Revelation 1:1 and re-think who God is there in verse 1.
do you understand now why I posted this topic, God the H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym, the First and the last?

so, in Revelation 1:1 and elsewhere it's only "ONE" person, and he is in Diversity, or the ECHAD of being the "EQUAL SHARE of himself in Flesh but Glorified in Spirit.
thanks for the post and be blessed. hope it has opened your eyes to the truth, or at least take a -re-look.
PICJAG, 101G.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
GINOLJC, to all,
First thanks for the reply, second, ERROR on your part. the scripture I believe you're quoting is Exodus 7:1 "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." if this is the correct scripture in question, then you made a great ERROR, and here's why. notice, the LORD, the only true God, "MADE", "MADE", "MADE" him a "god", the small case "g" in god, see the difference now. men used IGNORANTLY, the term for both, but the bible makes the distinction, for if one is "MADE" then he or she is not H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym Plural, or not...... understand? for, H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym Plural, or not, is NOT MADE. we know that a "god(s)" are IDOLS, listen, 1 Chronicles 16:26 "For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.", and 1 Corinthians 8:4 "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one." so if you think H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym is the same as a "god" then you need to re-think your position on the "ONE" TRUE God.
now this is why I posted this subject matter for replies just like this, so we all can be on one accord. for if one would have read before, .... this, Exodus 4:16 "And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God." if one would have read this, one would have never used Exodus 7:1, it would have saved a lot of A. time. and B. disinformation, in an honest mistake.

so no, Moses was not a "god" in the sense of him being the H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym Plural, or not. but thanks for the reply, be blessed.....
PICJAG, 101G.

You are welcome.

I didnt ask if Moses was God.

You said Elohim being plural means "Godhead". Which means more than one being or individual.

Moses was an individual. So how is that singular for Moses and not for El.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
You are welcome.

I didnt ask if Moses was God.

You said Elohim being plural means "Godhead". Which means more than one being or individual.

Moses was an individual. So how is that singular for Moses and not for El.
No problems, and thank you. as for a Godhead in plurality, it's of ONE person in the ECHAD, or the "EQUAL SHARE of one's-self. Moses was neither.
so, again thanks for the reply,
PICJAG, 101G.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
No problems, and thank you. as for a Godhead in plurality, it's of ONE person in the ECHAD, or the "EQUAL SHARE of one's-self. Moses was neither.
so, again thanks for the reply,
PICJAG, 101G.

Thus is Moses more than one because he was called Elohim by God?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Exalted ones can be translation as well.

Exalted ones took rest, God doesn't need rest.

The Lord Elohim as the Lord the God is distinguished later in the text. When exalted ones refers to God, you know it through context and when it refers to exalted ones, you know it by context.

Adam (a) didn't want to be God, he wanted to one of the exalted ones and that is why he ate of the tree by deception of the devil. Although he was an exalted one, there was yet exalted ones exalted above him.

Also a translation of the famous John verse can be:

In the beginning was the word, the word was with his exalted ones, and the word was his exalted ones.

Moses (a) is also the exalted ones metaphorically, since he at that point represents them, and denying him is denying them all. This is why denying his signs is like denying all signs of God that previous Messengers were sent with and that ones will be sent with after.

Same with Jesus say "You shall not tempt your exalted ones", because Jesus (a) is one of them.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
did i say that? God is "ONE" within himself, as the First, and the last. Just as the OP states.
PICJAG, 101G.

If you are the 101st God, who are the 98 other Gods? Are you a JW, one of 144,000, but simply with a low production number? And what exactly is the 1st commandment? It confesses that there are many gods, but one is not to have other gods before me, which is to say, your gods, are not God, but lower-level beings, subject to sentencing (Revelation 20:1).
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
first, thanks for the reply, second, "beginning" in CREATION, as the term applies in Genesis 1:1,
BEGINNING: H7225 רֵאשִׁית re'shiyth (ray-sheeth') n-f.

1. the first, in place, time, order or rank.
2. (specifically) a firstfruit.
[from the same as H7218]
KJV: beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Root(s): H7218
definition tells it all. the First in PLACE, the OLD CREATION. TIME in the beginning of the OLD CREATION, and RANK in the OLD CREATION. the ODER is "First".
Understand now?
PICJAG, 101G.

"Understand" what? And what is the "Old Creation", versus the creation in which we exist? Were you trained as a lawyer, where obfuscation is the manner of doing business?
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Thus is Moses more than one because he was called Elohim by God?
Another ERROR on your part. for to be H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym in the plural, or not, one must be eternal, in "TIME", "PLACE", and "ORDER", as the definition states of "BEGINNING towards God in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1, and Moses is not ETERNAL, and none of these, so the appropriate title"god" would be in order. but thanks for the question.
PICJAG, 101G.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Another ERROR on your part. for to be H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym in the plural, or not, one must be eternal, in "TIME", "PLACE", and "ORDER", as the definition states of "BEGINNING towards God in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1, and Moses is not ETERNAL, and none of these, so the appropriate title"god" would be in order. but thanks for the question.
PICJAG, 101G.

Why was Moses called Elohim. Elohim is plural. So is Moses several people or one person?

Your contention was in your post that Elohim being plural means its plural in numbers. So was Moses more than one person? Plural in numbers.

So I think you understand this question clearly.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
If you are the 101st God, who are the 98 other Gods? Are you a JW, one of 144,000, but simply with a low production number? And what exactly is the 1st commandment? It confesses that there are many gods, but one is not to have other gods before me, which is to say, your gods, are not God, but lower-level beings, subject to sentencing (Revelation 20:1).
LOL, (smile), I'm 101G, and my words are me, are you not reading my words now? but 101G is not electronic, and there are no other 101G's .... at least I hope not.... (smile). but do you not know 101G by his words?
now, I'm not a JW either. nor of the 144 thousand, (not that I know of), but a son of God in Christ Jesus. and if you want to know my religion... it's holy, not Holiness, but holy, (smile). understand now?
and as for the, "
1st commandment? " I will go even further before the First covenant, not being under a old covenant, but a new one, which what God ONLY ...... REQUIRES then and NOW, Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" now this has alway been even before the first commandment of any COVENANT, old or new.
now can you agree with that command? which encompasses all commands, old or new.
PICJAG, 101G.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Why was Moses called Elohim. Elohim is plural. So is Moses several people or one person?

Your contention was in your post that Elohim being plural means its plural in numbers. So was Moses more than one person? Plural in numbers.

So I think you understand this question clearly.
did I not answer that? moses is not a Plurality, or the ECHAD of himself, nor is he of God, in the Godhead. which require "ANOTHER" of one's-self., lets bring this numerical dofference out clearly. First step, as for calling him god, did you not read the definition? listen,
H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).

4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433

note definition #3 vs definition #2. distinction is made, likewise as with Moses, and the TRUE God. also the (kjv) can also translate this word as angels, judges also. but understand there is no "god" with God, in or outside the Godhead, listen and Learn. Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
so Moses cannot be in the Godhead.... period. but Jesus as the Ordin First and Last is.... listen, John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." see that "WITH" here in the Verse? THIS IS THE "ECHAD" OF GOD AS "FIRST", AND "LAST". with indicate the Plurality of God, here in John 1, as one person in the ECHAD., of EQUAL SHARE listen and Learn the NUMERICAL DIFFEREBCE... Step #2. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." did you see the "with" there? it sounds like two people, do it not?, just as in John 1:1 the Word was "WITH" God. the answer is NO, it's only ONE person, the same one person, because we have the bible to reveal it unto us, listen and learn, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." now p[lease tell us is the First is "ALSO" the Last two separate, and distinct person? no, the bible is clear, the First is ... "ALSO" the Last, the same one person, just as in nJohn 1:1c "and the Word was God", yes, with him, but is HIM in the ECHAD of NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE. this is clearly seen in the OT as well as the NT of "ANOTHER", listen and Learn, using the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words . "ANOTHER", it is the Greek word, G243 Allos. , "Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort" there is your NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE. just as in the OT of the term Adam/Man as in mankind, the "ANOTHER" of ONE SELF., listen and Learn,
H120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m.
ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.).
[from H119]
KJV: X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.
Root(s): H119

God is not a species with the "s" at the end, but one of a KIND, just as man is a KIND of another, for see how the kjv can translate Adam/Man..... x another"
the OT as well as the NY confirm this ECHAD of God as the "ANOTHER" of himself. so there is no two, or three persons in the Godhead...
is this not Apodictic enough for you? do you not say you believe the bible, well hear it. hope this helps.
PICJAG, 101G.
 
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