The Origin of Us.

[Ellen Brown]

The answer to Original Sin, and the Atonement? Can it be that God made defective people? Did he do it on purpose? What?

 

[RabbiO]

The answer to Original Sin, and the Atonement? Can it be that God made defective people? Did he do it on purpose? What?

I'd love to help you out, but as Judaism does not teach a doctrine of original sin that must be atoned for, I really don't have anything to offer as an answer to your query.

I am sure, though, that other members will be glad to provide their perspective.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I'd love to help you out, but as Judaism does not teach a doctrine of original sin that must be atoned for, I really don't have anything to offer as an answer to your query.

I am sure, though, that other members will be glad to provide their perspective.

Good. I am pretty sure that lots of the Christian Doctrines are bogus. I'll buy that the events leading up to the 40 years wandering are credible, but how much else I don't know?

 

[WalterTrull]

The answer to Original Sin, and the Atonement? Can it be that God made defective people? Did he do it on purpose? What?

You've been listening to some weird people.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I've never personally accepted the concept of "original sin" considering that the concept makes me inherently responsible for what my ancestors did, yet I'm accountable for their actions as well as the actions I do today which means that I have something of a form of "proxy determinant-freewill."

Did God make us defective? Well an answer to that would be subjective. Adam's defective quality is my enlightenment. I think the evolution of who were are, are based on how we as a species grew and how we adapted both physically and psychologically. To me, that is not defective to me that is perfection in its own way much like how a baby learns to walk. It stumbles, but it eventually learns to walk upright to the point where we create sporting events based on how fast one runs. I think that is the beauty of what God created.

 

[Earthling]

The answer to Original Sin, and the Atonement? Can it be that God made defective people? Did he do it on purpose? What?

I don't know if I could give you anything on that, or that you would even care to hear it if I did, but I'll try to give you my perspective on it.

God made Michael first. Then the the heavens and angels next. Then earth and finally man. The angels had a great deal of time to mature and come to the logical conclusion that their creator was the only source of this maturation. They eventually got to the point where they could decide for themselves what was good and what was bad based upon that maturation. Like children who are born perfect. A perfect newborn child, does that make sense to you? But the child is far from mature.

Man was created perfect in this sense but needed to mature. The period of time in which man needed to do this was called the seventh day. The day of God's rest. David and Paul, with thousands of years between them and the beginning of that seventh day pointed out that we can't come into that period of time until we are mature like the angels.

Does any of this make sense to you?

 

[Ellen Brown]

I don't know if I could give you anything on that, or that you would even care to hear it if I did, but I'll try to give you my perspective on it.

God made Michael first. Then the the heavens and angels next. Then earth and finally man. The angels had a great deal of time to mature and come to the logical conclusion that their creator was the only source of this maturation. They eventually got to the point where they could decide for themselves what was good and what was bad based upon that maturation. Like children who are born perfect. A perfect newborn child, does that make sense to you? But the child is far from mature.

Man was created perfect in this sense but needed to mature. The period of time in which man needed to do this was called the seventh day. The day of God's rest. David and Paul, with thousands of years between them and the beginning of that seventh day pointed out that we can't come into that period of time until we are mature like the angels.

Does any of this make sense to you?

It is as good as any premise. None of us really knows it all. Perhaps one day?

 

[Earthling]

It is as good as any premise. None of us really knows it all. Perhaps one day?

Put simply, God didn't create defective people, but what, specifically is your question about Original Sin and Atonement?

 

[Axe Elf]

The answer to Original Sin, and the Atonement? Can it be that God made defective people? Did he do it on purpose? What?

We're not "defective," any more than a caterpillar is "defective"--but it's certainly not as suited for flying as it will be if it manages not to be destroyed as a caterpillar and survives to transform into a butterfly.

God created us with a human nature of selfishness which is well-suited to survival in this world--but totally incompatible with God's nature of love. So we are not at all suited to survive in the presence of God.

"Sin" is separation from God, so our "original sin"--our original separation from God--is rooted in that selfish human nature that is suitable for life on earth, but unsuitable for life in God's presence. It's not anything that anyone "did" per se; original sin is just the root cause of our separation from God--our own selfish human nature in opposition to God's nature of love.

This fundamental separation from God is what is explained in the Garden of Eden parable, and sets the stage for the rest of the book.

 

[Jollybear]

The answer to Original Sin, and the Atonement? Can it be that God made defective people? Did he do it on purpose? What?

I think original sin is an issue of power/responsibility.

Let me explain. If you are in a position of power and have alot of responsibility, anything you do, will effect everyone who is under your power. It will effect them either in a good way or a bad way. Depending on what they do with there power.

Now, if they do things that are not good, this effects the others negatively. Now, that dont mean that the people under the one in power are held responsible for the actions of the one in power. But, they dont have to be responsible in order to be negatively effected by the actions.

Likewise with adan/eve. There actions negatively effected the human race.

God set up the chain of power and responsibility. And along with that comes freedom. God teaches people what happens when they dont obey him.

Bad things happen, real bad things. So bad matter of fact, that the ripple effect is huge.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Put simply, God didn't create defective people, but what, specifically is your question about Original Sin and Atonement?

I don't have a question about either. Or rather, it angers me that men have punished and degraded women ever since. The Mormons say that Eve had to do it, but what Mormon men do to women is shameful at times. In Islam, I often heard that there were more Women in Hell than men. It just goes on and on.

As to the Atonement, I've heard so much preaching on it, and even spoken on it myself, but in the final analysis, God may follow it but most men do not.

 

[Earthling]

I don't have a question about either. Or rather, it angers me that men have punished and degraded women ever since. The Mormons say that Eve had to do it, but what Mormon men do to women is shameful at times. In Islam, I often heard that there were more Women in Hell than men. It just goes on and on.

I don't think that's a very accurate sentiment from the Bible's perspective. Eve was deceived and Adam, who wasn't deceived was also the head so either way Eve wasn't responsible, Adam was.

As to the Atonement, I've heard so much preaching on it, and even spoken on it myself, but in the final analysis, God may follow it but most men do not.

I sure as hell won't argue that.

 

[Valjean]

The answer to Original Sin, and the Atonement? Can it be that God made defective people? Did he do it on purpose? What?

Isn't everything God does on purpose, or does He sometimes mess up?

Apparently He did screw up with His original design and had to scrap the whole run. But then He made another run with exactly the same model -- expecting a different result?

 

[Ellen Brown]

I don't think that's a very accurate sentiment from the Bible's perspective. Eve was deceived and Adam, who wasn't deceived was also the head so either way Eve wasn't responsible, Adam was.



I sure as hell won't argue that.

In the interest of keeping the peace, I may not mention a couple of the denominations that make a mockery of the Atonement, but I'm tempted.

 

[nPeace]

The answer to Original Sin, and the Atonement? Can it be that God made defective people? Did he do it on purpose? What?

Can an expert baker make a defective bread?
If he 1. is careless, 2. makes mistakes, which he can because he is imperfect, 3. deliberately does so.

The Bible says
Jehovah is righteous in all his ways. . .
The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness who is never unjust; Righteous and upright is he.
(Psalm 145:17; Deuteronomy 32:4)

If God is imperfect, then God can only make defective people..
If God is perfect, then God cannot make defective people..
To deliberately make something less than perfect God would have to be less than perfect. How so?

If a carpenter knows how to build the perfect cupboard, but deliberately makes it less than perfect, he does so, likely because he is dishonest,

However, all of God's activities are perfect. Therefore everything he does is perfect.
The heavenly beings, and earthly - Adam and Eve were perfectly designed, just the way God wanted them to be - as free agents, capable of making informed choices.
Which means they could also choose a course in opposition to their maker.
When they did, they did so on their own accord. Directly after describing God as he is - perfect in all his ways and doings - the very next verse says: They have acted ruinously on their own part; They are not his children, the defect is their own. A generation crooked and twisted! (Deuteronomy 32:5)

Man's decisions resulted in his own defect.
It is like a child refusing to listen to a capable parent, and because of taking a wayward course, the child brings a calamity upon itself. It may end up lamed or otherwise scared for life.

The parent may then choose to spend a great sum of money to repair the damage done.
This is how we can view the atonement.
God made the atonement, in order to repair the damage done by his wayward children, Adam and Eve.

The damage done was universal. Romans 5:12; 1 Corinthians 15:21
God sent his son (John 3:16), and Jesus willingly came because of love for the human race, that we may be repaired, and have what God originally purposed for his children.
Romans 5:6-11
6 For, indeed, while we were still weak, Christ died for ungodly men at the appointed time. 7 For hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die. 8 But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more, then, since we have now been declared righteous by his blood, will we be saved through him from wrath. 10 For if when we were enemies we became reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more we will be saved by his life, now that we have become reconciled. 11 Not only that, but we are also rejoicing in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
1 John 4:10

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/.../who-is-jesus-christ/video-why-did-jesus-die/

 

[Katzpur]

I don't think that's a very accurate sentiment from the Bible's perspective. Eve was deceived and Adam, who wasn't deceived was also the head so either way Eve wasn't responsible, Adam was.

So why do you personally think that Adam, had he not also been deceived, decided to eat the forbidden fruit? Could it have had something to do with the fact that Eve was to be cast out of the Garden and Adam would have been left there alone? How would he have gone about multiplying and replenishing the earth on his own? I'm just trying to understand your perspective as to what choice he really had.

 

[nPeace]

So why do you personally think that Adam, had he not also been deceived, decided to eat the forbidden fruit? Could it have had something to do with the fact that Eve was to be cast out of the Garden and Adam would have been left there alone? How would he have gone about multiplying and replenishing the earth on his own? I'm just trying to understand your perspective as to what choice he really had.

I hope you wouldn't mind if I answered this question. @Earthling can still give his answer.
My opinion - just a guess - is that likely God would still have allowed Eve to remain in the garden with her husband, and bear his offspring.
Since Adam was still perfect - without defect, he would have produced sinless offspring.
Eve would have eventually died, but everyone else would not be subject to death through sin.
From there on out, I won't guess how God would deal with the situation.
I am only speculating, so I could be wrong. It is not written, and my wisdom is nowhere near to God's.

Edit. I just had a thought. Perhaps the situation would have been similar to how it will be after the thousand year reign of Christ, where Satan would mislead some, but others would be faithful, and God would choose when to destroy the rebels... perhaps.

 

[Earthling]

So why do you personally think that Adam, had he not also been deceived, decided to eat the forbidden fruit? Could it have had something to do with the fact that Eve was to be cast out of the Garden and Adam would have been left there alone? How would he have gone about multiplying and replenishing the earth on his own? I'm just trying to understand your perspective as to what choice he really had.

That's exactly why he did what he did, but he didn't have to. The Hebrew is worded, in the warning to Adam, "in dying you shall die." Which means they would begin to die. Not drop dead as soon as they ate. They lived for a long time after.

 

[Ancient Soul]

The answer to Original Sin, and the Atonement? Can it be that God made defective people? Did he do it on purpose? What?

The "original sin" construct is just a critical part of the Christian brainwashing system.

That is one of the very first things they tried to "teach" us kids in "bible study". Because they first had to convince us all that we were automatically "evil" no matter how good we really are. Without convincing us of that, they could not go on to the second phase of instilling us with all the fear mongering on what "God" will do to us "sinners" if we don't go along with being "saved" from this wrathful wicked "God".

 

[Ancient Soul]

That's exactly why he did what he did, but he didn't have to. The Hebrew is worded, in the warning to Adam, "in dying you shall die." Which means they would begin to die. Not drop dead as soon as they ate. They lived for a long time after.

No, the bible clearly states that Adam & Eve would die that same DAY:

Genesis 2:17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So the Christian "god" lied to them.