The ONLY religious question!

[shmogie]

That is not how I would have read what I wrote: "I also know that most of the human beings who have ever lived on this planet, and likewise most of those who presently live here, have not and do not believe it."

I would read that sentence as "this planet" and "here" having the same meaning, because the only thing that changed -- that differentiates -- is "have lived" and the "presently live."

And I'm not an American, I'm a Canadian. It is a fact that as a nation, we are more aware of the rest of the world than Americans typically seem to be.

That is not how I would have read what I wrote: "I also know that most of the human beings who have ever lived on this planet, and likewise most of those who presently live here, have not and do not believe it."

I would read that sentence as "this planet" and "here" having the same meaning, because the only thing that changed -- that differentiates -- is "have lived" and the "presently live."

And I'm not an American, I'm a Canadian. It is a fact that as a nation, we are more aware of the rest of the world than Americans typically seem to be.

Well, you may be right about being more aware of the rest of the world, is that a good thing ?

 

[1robin]

You mistake me. I have read the Bible -- more than most Christians I know, actually, because I've been a huge reader all of my life. And I have written on it, as well -- often receiving (as in University) high praise for the quality of my exegesis -- although my exegesis did not and does not lead to the same place as that of many others.

Lets use a treasure map analogy. There is a huge difference between following the map and arriving at the X and finding the treasure, and sitting on the couch perusing the map, writing about the origin of the map, and then displaying the map on a table or shelf. I will make this very easy.

Christ said to Nicodemus that unless he became born from above he could not even see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus was a Jewish scholar, he forgot more about holy texts and did more works in God's name than we have combined. Same thing with Martin Luther. However neither man were saved until they were born again.

I do not know how you read, and what you include or ignore in forming your overall opinion of what you've read. In my case, it is and has always been that the Bible is not coherent -- rather the reverse in many ways. And I cannot help but observe that much of the overall message of the Gospels and the rest of the NT are not followed particularly well be most people who claim to be Christian. For example, in spite of being told "take no thought for the morrow," everybody is constantly worrying about it, and in spite of being warned that it is damned near impossible for a rich man to get into heaven, far too many are striving far too hard to be just that -- rich. And the NT is extremely clear about one thing: the Parousia was imminent -- so much so that there really was no point in even getting married, unless you couldn't contain yourself.

The bible is an enormous text, written over 1800 years, has around 40 authors, and covers everything from creation, salvation, to end time eschatology. It is bound to be a tricky read. Outside of a few teachings I have been able to harmonize any part of the bible I felt deserving of the time to clarify. Your example compares an ideal with an actual (and even your actual does not hold true at all times). The bible harmonizes what you described by giving us a goal, telling us to strive for that goal, then admitting we will all fall short, that is why we need a savior, and why Jesus came to earth. Paul is not teaching about the coming of Christ as it concerns marriage. In short he was saying you could serve God better if unattached than if married, but that marriage far from being forbidden is a holy institution. So far I only see perfect harmony.

(And by the way, I've also read the apologetics that try to explain all that away, and find them generally specious and self-serving.)

IOW you found their responses inconvenient. You shouldn't debate by proxy. I am not bound by your opinions of others.

The same can be said of infatuation, which is far too often mistaken for love. It is, unfortunately, based to much on surface matter and not enough depth.

What are you talking about? Your response had no bearing on my analogy.

Craig is the worst of the lying apologists -- one that I would accuse of doing a lot more eisegesis than exegesis. ("Reading into" rather than "reading out of.") No doubt he believes himself to be totally honest. I unfortunately do not.

Yep, he is so universally despised he sits on the board of a well respected university and non theistic scholars say he is the only philosopher who can put the fear of God into an atheist. Your conclusions about Craig say more about you, than him.

That being said I am perfectly aware that we are all strongly emotionally motivated to accept what confirms our existing beliefs, and reject what contradicts them. I'm the same, no doubt. But I think that I work very hard to spot my cognitive dissonances, and to deal with them analytically.

I do not find much of my faith to be convenient, if I could I would rewrite 75% of the bible, and for many years I literally hated a being I didn't think existed. I came to faith kicking and screaming only to find it perfectly refuted every argument against it I had ever had.

And as a result, it is my considered belief that most revelation is in fact largely wishful thinking mixed with fundamental errors in reasoning, largely brought about by our own biases.

The chief founders of Christianity suffered in every way possible for a claim they knew for a fact whether it was true or false. IOW if false they knew it was a lie, if true they knew it to be true. No greater test for sincerity exists than what Christ and the apostles went through without flinching. I will let one of (if not the) greatest experts on evidence and testimony make the point).


"Such conduct in the apostles would moreover have been utterly irreconcilable with the fact that they possessed the ordinary constitution of our common nature. Yet their lives do show them to have been men like all others of our race; swayed by the same motives, animated by the same hopes, affected by the same joys, subdued by the same sorrows, agitated by the same fears, and subject to the same passions, temptations, and infirmities, as ourselves. And their writings show them to have been men of vigorous understandings. If then their testimony was not true, there was no possible motive for its fabrication."
Simon Greenleaf (former atheist)

 

[Daisies4me]

At least you opened up with rabid statements instead of waiting until your thin veneer of civility wore through.

God did not say yell at Christians until I come to your house to be interviewed by you. He said if you diligently seek him, you would find him.

What I know (and what billions have known) that may provide us ultimate salvation, that others do not? Christ.

 

[Daisies4me]

Well, you may be right about being more aware of the rest of the world, is that a good thing ?

-----------------
my reply is to this excerpt in the conversation, for what it's worth, my thoughts as to this statement:

What the hell do you think you know that everybody else doesn't? How can you be so blindly stupid as to imagine for yourself a God that could make his truth known to you -- but was utterly powerless to make it known to everybody else?
-------------------

If we are to take the information from the Bible, in response to that statement/question, there are some clues that tell us that 'faith is not a possession of all people', ( 2 Th. 3:2) but rather, faith is a by product of , or 'fruitage' of God's Spirit. God gives His Spirit to those who seek it. notice Galatians 5:22, and Luke1 1:13 in your Bible.
THe Bible itself is a produce of God's Spirit, being 'Inspired of God' -( 2Timothy 3:16-17)
Failure to study it hinders any development of true faith. Persons without faith are not seeking God's Spirit, or possibly they are doing so for a wrong reason--or, maybe they are resisting its operation in their own life.
Although many church members may have Bibles, if they have been taught the ideas of men instead of the Word of God, they will lack real faith in God and His purposes. Many are inclined to rely on their own ideas and those of other humans, or maybe disillusioned by the hypocrisy of the churches of Christendom, which claim to teach God's Word, but fail to live in harmony with what it says. Hebrews 11:1 gives the definition of Faith. It is not credulity, or a readiness to believe something without sound evidence, or just because a person wants it to be so--Genuine faith requires basic or fundamental knowledge, acquainted with evidence , as well as a heartfelt appreciation for what that evidence indicates. The Bible tells us also, that it is 'with the heart' that one exercises (like you exercise a muscle, perhaps--thru use) faith. Romans 10:10
just my two cents on the subject.
peace to you all

 

[1robin]

Hello D4me, since you only quoted my post without responding to it I am unsure what to do in response. Please let me know if you need some help in how to format a post?

 

[Daisies4me]

Hello D4me, since you only quoted my post without responding to it I am unsure what to do in response. Please let me know if you need some help in how to format a post?

--------
I apologize--this is the only option that is shown when I click on 'reply'---so, please look at the previous post for my response to the thread . I believe the part that I replied to was actually posted by someone that you were engaging in conversation. again, my apologies for any inconvenience.

 

[Daisies4me]

it is only after I 'send' that this provision pops up. don't know why this happens, I have noticed others having what appears to be the same issue... please look at post #144 for my response .
thanks for your patience

 

[1robin]

it is only after I 'send' that this provision pops up. don't know why this happens, I have noticed others having what appears to be the same issue... please look at post #144 for my response .
thanks for your patience

Hello, just sounds like you need a little help. I will give you the essential tools just to start with.

If you see a post to which you want to respond to. Do like you have been and hit reply. A new window should open up with everything from the post that you wanted to respond to. In the top left corner of the screen there will be a bracket ([) then the word {quote plus a bunch of numbers and stuff and then another bracket} (]). Now read down to the place you want to stop and respond to whether that be a sentence or the entire post. At the point where you want to begin responding type the word /quote in between two brackets ([ ]). When your done with you first response then pick the portion of their post you want to group together next. This time you will have to type the word {quote} at the start point between the same two brackets ([ ]) and then like the above type the word {/quote} in between two brackets ([ ]) where you want to start responding again.

To make this even more confusing drop every { or } or ( or ) that I used above. I had to use them to keep the forum from using the word quote as a function.

 

[Serenity7855]

Okay, look at the bit I marked in red and answer me this one, should be extremely simple, question: why do we have to ask "in the name of Christ," and God -- for a thousand years! -- didn't bother to tell His people (the Jews, you remember them) that simple thing? Absent-mindedness? How were they to know "the truth" then -- since they would have benefited greatly knowing that while they were writing the majority of what is now the Bible.

It was Jesus who put himself forward as the Saviour of mankind. He atoned for our sins and bleed, died and was resurrected so that we may do the same. It is to Him that we owe the debt, by His actions we will be saved, therefore, anything we do is rightly in His name as the only mediator between us and God. It takes nothing away from the glory of God. It is a natural part of the plan of salvation.

 

[Daisies4me]

It was Jesus who put himself forward as the Saviour of mankind. He atoned for our sins and bleed, died and was resurrected so that we may do the same. It is to Him that we owe the debt, by His actions we will be saved, therefore, anything we do is rightly in His name as the only mediator between us and God. It takes nothing away from the glory of God. It is a natural part of the plan of salvation.

(quote)
Actually, the Bible foretold the Messiah's coming as far back as the Genesis account, immediately after God confronted the rebels , in the garden of Eden, and passed judgment on them for their deliberate disobedience and rebellion against God's Rulership over them. Read it at Genesis chapter 3.
Everything in the Hebrew Scriptures leads up to the arrival of the Promised "seed" of Abraham that would save mankind from the inherited sin of Adam. The Gospels tell of the life of Jesus, the Messiah, and the rest of the Christian Greek Scriptures lead up to and include the conclusion of the system of things, and fulfillment of Bible prophecies that lead up to the final cleansing of the earth, and restoration to its original purpose that God had intended prior to .the rebellion.
Paradise lost, paradise regained.
No one was unable to understand if they had the right heart condition and did not wish to use the information against others as Satan has done, and exercised faith in the promises in the Bible. (exercise, as in a muscle, is necessary, a faith without works is a dead faith).
Faith is not a possession of all people. Some are out to continue the rebellion, and will not attempt to obey God and live. They choose their own fate by their actions. Ecclesiastes 12:13 sums it all up nicely.

 

[Daisies4me]

Hello, just sounds like you need a little help. I will give you the essential tools just to start with.

If you see a post to which you want to respond to. Do like you have been and hit reply. A new window should open up with everything from the post that you wanted to respond to. In the top left corner of the screen there will be a bracket ([) then the word {quote plus a bunch of numbers and stuff and then another bracket} (]). Now read down to the place you want to stop and respond to whether that be a sentence or the entire post. At the point where you want to begin responding type the word /quote in between two brackets ([ ]). When your done with you first response then pick the portion of their post you want to group together next. This time you will have to type the word {quote} at the start point between the same two brackets ([ ]) and then like the above type the word {/quote} in between two brackets ([ ]) where you want to start responding again.

To make this even more confusing drop every { or } or ( or ) that I used above. I had to use them to keep the forum from using the word quote as a function.

(quote)
I don't think that I properly thanked you for your kind assistance. I really appreciated it, and since I tend to be a slow learner in some things, I do very much appreciate your patience.
thanks so much!

 

[shmogie]

(quote)
Actually, the Bible foretold the Messiah's coming as far back as the Genesis account, immediately after God confronted the rebels , in the garden of Eden, and passed judgment on them for their deliberate disobedience and rebellion against God's Rulership over them. Read it at Genesis chapter 3.
Everything in the Hebrew Scriptures leads up to the arrival of the Promised "seed" of Abraham that would save mankind from the inherited sin of Adam. The Gospels tell of the life of Jesus, the Messiah, and the rest of the Christian Greek Scriptures lead up to and include the conclusion of the system of things, and fulfillment of Bible prophecies that lead up to the final cleansing of the earth, and restoration to its original purpose that God had intended prior to .the rebellion.
Paradise lost, paradise regained.
No one was unable to understand if they had the right heart condition and did not wish to use the information against others as Satan has done, and exercised faith in the promises in the Bible. (exercise, as in a muscle, is necessary, a faith without works is a dead faith).
Faith is not a possession of all people. Some are out to continue the rebellion, and will not attempt to obey God and live. They choose their own fate by their actions. Ecclesiastes 12:13 sums it all up nicely.

I agree totally, provided that you are saying salvation comes by faith, and that faith leads to good works, Works don't save you, they happen because you are saved.

 

[Daisies4me]

(quote)
as you say, works do not save. however, if one has true faith, it will show in the works of that one. Good works are a "side-effect", if you will, of a true faith based on accurate knowledge of the One True God, and the one He sent forth, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

 

[1robin]

(quote)
I don't think that I properly thanked you for your kind assistance. I really appreciated it, and since I tend to be a slow learner in some things, I do very much appreciate your patience.
thanks so much!

No problem, let me know if you desire further assistance.

 

[Muffled]

Faith in Christ and a desire to know the truth, in spite of those who try to convince us differently. Whenever we want things, regardless as to whether it is a new car or a joint of prime beef, we look for the best for us. Likewise with our reasoning for our existence, surely you can see that if a person has a desire to know about God then it is best to get it from the horses mouth. To ask God, the eternal Father, in the name of Christ and if these things be true he will manifest it to your very soul. That is a promise from God. So, we do not want an unproven scientific theory contrived by man, like abiogenesis, we want the truth, from source. We can see biogenesis taking place every day as I can see Gods hand in oh so many ways. Who is the fool here? Me for believing in proven phenomena or the atheist who believes in an unlikely and unproven theory. I only need to get on my knees to have the truth given to me, I seek after it because I am eager to learn. Don't you have a desire to know? . The Bible tells us that if we look for God then we will find Him. If you do not want Him in your life then that is your choice, no one is forcing it on you, please do not assume that you have something that the Christian does not, the opposite is true and it is us who cannot understand why you turn your back on a very real God. .

"Individualist - that is, A Christian without a need for a congregation to follow."

Does that mean you don't need Jesus. If you can't find Him in a congregation of believers where will you find Him?

I believe it helps to look in the right place. Jesus suggested the closet. Then again He said He would be in the midst of two or more gathered in His name.
Mt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

 

[Muffled]

I don't think I'm "super" (I presume you mean superior). I just think it is stupid to believe in an omnipotent being who can make "the truth" clear to you, but can't manage to do it with everybody else, who believe other than you do.

And by the way, that works in every direction. I think it is stupid for Muslims to believe that God informs them but not Jews, Christians and Hindus, just as I think it is stupid that Christians believe God informs them (through Jesus), but ignores the hell out of everybody else.

In my opinion, anybody who sits down and actually thinks (using their real brain) about his would conclude that it's a ridiculous thing to believe about an omniscient, omnipotent and loving deity. That they don't get there tells me only that they're not thinking, they're believing.

I can remedy that for you because God speaks through me and that will work for anyone willing to listen.

 

[Muffled]

Maybe this helps

View attachment 16621

I believe He looks this way to me:
Ge 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

 

[VioletVortex]

You make a valid point. How could an "all powerful" god make himself known to a select few? I do not see the deities as being absolute decisive powers, however, I think that some are more inclined to notice them than others. This has to do with natural selection and genetics mostly. I believe that one's sense of spirituality is rooted in the pineal gland, and perhaps other structures in the brain and body. A mundane application for this could be sense of direction, or intuition. With the advent of GPS technology, weather stations, and things of that sort, the need for these structures is diminishing. Thus, they are being lost to natural selection. Some people have more developed spiritualities than others for this reason, similarly to how some people are more intelligent than others.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I can remedy that for you because God speaks through me and that will work for anyone willing to listen.

I'm sorry to say this, but I consider that to be quite ridiculous. First, if God is God, he has precisely zero reason to need to speak to me through you, and provides precisely zero reason for me to believe that a) he is doing so, and b) you are not lying for your own purposes except your own say-so.

Such a god would have to be, at very best, a moron.

Any god that can speak through you can speak directly to anybody -- with zero exceptions. And therefore it would be completely idiotic of such a god to deal in such roundabout nonsense, the outcome of which always is and always has been misunderstanding and confusion.

 

[Daisies4me]

"Individualist - that is, A Christian without a need for a congregation to follow."

Does that mean you don't need Jesus. If you can't find Him in a congregation of believers where will you find Him?

I believe it helps to look in the right place. Jesus suggested the closet. Then again He said He would be in the midst of two or more gathered in His name.
Mt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

"Individualist - that is, A Christian without a need for a congregation to follow."

Does that mean you don't need Jesus. If you can't find Him in a congregation of believers where will you find Him?

I believe it helps to look in the right place. Jesus suggested the closet. Then again He said He would be in the midst of two or more gathered in His name.
Mt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

(quote)

Hebrews 10: 24-25.
1 Corinthians 14:33, 40.
1 Corinthians 1:10.

See if you agree