The New American Idiot

[Secret Chief]

Not to mention the Cold War. In fact, that probably did more psychological damage to America than the World Wars. It lasted longer anyway, and included a nuclear arms race and various hot wars, international intrigue, etc. Then there's the War on Terror, War on Drugs. We have a continuous state of war, and no real "peace" to speak of.

America is keen on wars, whether overt, covert, or imagined.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...

Why do you think we have gone this way? Why have we become so determined to be so stupid about almost everything we think and do?

Have you ever studied accident theories? Not single factor accidents, but complex system accidents. There is never just one factor, it is combinations of several "bad" factors forming the "perfect storm".
So how to get out of that one the other side? Well, if you concentrate to much one factor and try to push that to it maximum, you might end up worse.

So I get your angle and your in effect "anger", but it might be counterproductive if you push it to far.
Yes, I know, it is vague, but here it is as a former professional soldier. You, Americans, are right now doing an "advanced dance" of ****** up beyond all recognition and if enough of you react with pure "fight" instincts, it will go wrong.

So deep breaths, ground yourself and act, but don't react.
And yes, you are right. "We, the People" have to get to the streets, but if enough of you, who do that, want to fight and not practice in effect pacifism, it will go wrong.
So for the enemy you fight, if you in the end rob the enemy for their humanity, because you really have to win at all cost, you will loose, because then you are your enemy.

Regards and love
Mikkel

 

[PureX]

I don't think it's that people are "stupid." I think people have gotten more self-centered, selfish, more of a "me first" attitude. They only know or care about that which personally affects them.

But a terrible health care system, and unjust legal system, corrupt and incompetent politicians, rampant greed and wealth disparity, poor education; these negatively effect everyone on a daily basis. And yet we still insist on supporting them! What is wrong with us?

There's also a certain underlying social Darwinism in the way a lot of people think. The idea that "only the strong shall survive." There's always been that idea in America in one form or another. There's a certain cold indifference to it, but it's how people often are.

But we we did rally together in the past, when things got ugly enough. We did organize, and we did fight in the streets, to change things for the better. Why aren't we doing it this time? Even selfishness at some point will dictate that we band together and fight to survive.

 

[PureX]

It seems all nations are relegated to continual cycles of dark ages and renaissance in a strange clockwork way.

And they fail and vanish as a result. Are we really so stupid that we can't learn from this?

 

[PureX]

This is the classical difficulty with republics and democracies. Aristotle wrote about it 2300 years ago. The people who vote start to vote for the people that will help *them* the most as opposed to those who are best for the country as a whole. That leads to political parties (which our Founding Fathers loathed) and, ultimately, the rise of demagogues. It is hard work staying educated about the issues of the day and entertainment is more fun, so people stop focusing on education and focus more on awards and play. Eventually, you get an uninformed populace that feels self-entitled and refuses to obey simple rules that will keep them and others safe.

At that point, it is common to elect a 'strong man' that claims to be able to solve all the problems, but instead just pushes the issues farther from the attention of those voting while trashing the institutions that supported popular rule. Often that leads to war.

If the society is lucky, they then get a benevolent dictator. If unlucky, they get military rule or a theocracy.

But why do we follow this course when we know how it ends? Why do we follow it when it begins to cause us harm? Why do we embrace our own idiocy this way?

 

[PureX]

America is keen on wars, whether overt, covert, or imagined.

War, and preparing for war make rich people richer. It's always about the greed, with us. But why are we so greedy? Why are we so obsessed with amassing huge piles of wealth in this country?

 

[PureX]

Have you ever studied accident theories? Not single factor accidents, but complex system accidents. There is never just one factor, it is combinations of several "bad" factors forming the "perfect storm".
So how to get out of that one the other side? Well, if you concentrate to much one factor and try to push that to it maximum, you might end up worse.

So I get your angle and your in effect "anger", but it might be counterproductive if you push it to far.
Yes, I know, it is vague, but here it is as a former professional soldier. You, Americans, are right now doing an "advanced dance" of ****** up beyond all recognition and if enough of you react with pure "fight" instincts, it will go wrong.

So deep breaths, ground yourself and act, but don't react.
And yes, you are right. "We, the People" have to get to the streets, but if enough of you, who do that, want to fight and not practice in effect pacifism, it will go wrong.
So for the enemy you fight, if you in the end rob the enemy for their humanity, because you really have to win at all cost, you will loose, because then you are your enemy.

Regards and love
Mikkel

Hence, my worries about the apparent lack of organization, or even a call to organize. In the past, when our society had gone so off track, we organized, and we fought for change. Now we just fight aimlessly and willy-nilly. Yes, black lives matter, but it's never really been a color issue. It's a greed issue. It has always been a greed issue in this country. Slavery was about greed, not color. It's always been our own obsession with amassing huge piles of wealth that has been driving us to self-destruct. In the past, once we felt the very real consequences of this greed run amok, we organized and fought it. And we won, temporarily. But this time, we can't seem to even focus on the problem. We're fighting blind.

But why?

 

[Secret Chief]

War, and preparing for war make rich people richer. It's always about the greed, with us. But why are we so greedy? Why are we so obsessed with amassing huge piles of wealth in this country?

Because capitalism is the only game in town?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Hence, my worries about the apparent lack of organization, or even a call to organize. In the past, when our society had gone so off track, we organized, and we fought for change. Now we just fight aimlessly and willy-nilly. Yes, black lives matter, but it's never really been a color issue. It's a greed issue. It has always been a greed issue in this country. Slavery was about greed, not color. It's always been our own obsession with amassing huge piles of wealth that has been driving us to self-destruct. In the past, once we felt the very real consequences of this greed run amok, we organized and fought it. And we won, temporarily. But this time, we can't seem to even focus on the problem. We're fighting blind.

But why?

EDIT: This answer is better than mine:
The New American Idiot

But why?
Well, I don't know for certain, but a combination of factors seems to play in hand.

The individualism as a result of the liberation of values from 60'ties and the counter to that.
The Reagan idea of "let the capitalists be capitalists" and you can do it without government.
You won the cold war and thus you believed, you won history.
The southern strategy of the Republican party.
That the advantages you got from the 2 world wars are no more.
That you have to big a military and it costs to much.
The emergence of the modern media and Internet.
The influence of big money on politics.
The American dream of that you can do it on your own and it is all the responsibility of the individual.
And of course greed and profit for the sake of profit.
Edit: Consumerism/materialism.

Not in that exact order and I bet there is more.
In short if this goes wrong for you, you will be like any big Empire, you had your time, but you lost your advantages, because the world changed and you adapted in the wrong direction.

You are American, so you might be able to correct me and see trends that I don't. But to me, it is a combination of many trends.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Because capitalism is the only game in town?

Well, no, it is not. There are in the modern game, 3 kinds of economies, pure Communism, pure Capitalism and mixed economies. Now combine with rule of law/government you get the X axis of left/right economy and the Y axis of democracy/authoritarian.

 

[Stevicus]

But a terrible health care system, and unjust legal system, corrupt and incompetent politicians, rampant greed and wealth disparity, poor education; these negatively effect everyone on a daily basis. And yet we still insist on supporting them! What is wrong with us?

People invariably end up supporting what they perceive as the lesser of two evils at every election. Some people might see themselves as doing reasonably well, so as long as they believe they're doing okay, they won't see any need to support anything else. If they're healthy, they won't care about the health care system. Likewise, they won't care much about the unjust legal system until they are personally screwed by it - which a lot of people have been able to avoid.

As long as they've got theirs, they won't care about the corrupt or incompetent politicians or the wealth disparity or poor education.

But we we did rally together in the past, when things got ugly enough. We did organize, and we did fight in the streets, to change things for the better. Why aren't we doing it this time? Even selfishness at some point will dictate that we band together and fight to survive.

I've noticed that this attitude became more and more common during the Reagan years. The general philosophy of "don't worry, be happy" (which also seemed to permeate the left in different ways) was that one should only be concerned with one's own happiness, not try to fix or take on the troubles of the whole world. Or the concept of "think globally, act locally," meaning that people should only deal with that which is in their own immediate vicinity.

During the 60s, they probably kept it a bit simpler and had a more welcoming atmosphere which was more conducive towards unity and banding together. It was rooted more in love and hope, whereas today, there seems to be a lot more anger, hatred, and despair than anything else.

Also, for the same reasons of ego and narcissism, a lot of people have a superiority complex where their own individual ego becomes more important than whatever "cause" they claim to support. As a result, even if some of these people really are the intellectual giants they believe themselves to be, there's little indication that they're willing to actually reach out and teach, build bridges, and/or impart the knowledge that they ostensibly believe so many people are missing. Instead, they apparently wish to scorn, ridicule, judge and humiliate those who disagree with them, which they do mainly to feed their own ego and belief that they're "better" and "more enlightened" than everyone else. It's not really about banding together and solving the problems of this country.

It's just like how some people might see those who disagree with them as "stupid." If one goes around calling other people "stupid" all the time, then it's a little late to come back and say "Hey, doesn't anyone want to join us in our fight for justice??!?"

I remember having a discussion with someone on this board who typically takes a pro-liberal, anti-Trump position, yet is oftentimes very abrasive and rude during discussions. I suggested they might try the Dale Carnegie approach - "How to win friends and influence people." They said that it wasn't their style, they apparently believed it would be a "sign of weakness" (which is another appeal to egotism), and they just rejected the idea out of hand.

In another discussion, I addressed cancel culture and suggested that it was fraught with too much emotionalism and sanctimony, with too little attention on logic, reason, objectivity, or reaching out and actually teaching people whatever it is they may be ignorant about. Once someone is declared to be a "deplorable," then they are considered irredeemable and permanently shunned, as if they're some kind of "unwashed heathen." It promotes an atmosphere of general nastiness, self-righteousness, supercilious arrogance that puts a lot of people off and is non-conducive towards building any real coalitions or coming together in common cause.

Even the current wave of protests seems to be going in an odd direction. While they were initially sparked by the police murder of George Floyd - and eventually widened to include all unlawful and unjustified killings of black people at the hands of the police - their message somehow got confused and/or misconstrued. This is evidenced by all the endless rhetoric and bickering we see in social media and even here in this forum. There's also other shenanigans going on to keep people distracted and confused.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

People invariably end up supporting what they perceive as the lesser of two evils at every election. Some people might see themselves as doing reasonably well, so as long as they believe they're doing okay, they won't see any need to support anything else. If they're healthy, they won't care about the health care system. Likewise, they won't care much about the unjust legal system until they are personally screwed by it - which a lot of people have been able to avoid.

As long as they've got theirs, they won't care about the corrupt or incompetent politicians or the wealth disparity or poor education.



I've noticed that this attitude became more and more common during the Reagan years. The general philosophy of "don't worry, be happy" (which also seemed to permeate the left in different ways) was that one should only be concerned with one's own happiness, not try to fix or take on the troubles of the whole world. Or the concept of "think globally, act locally," meaning that people should only deal with that which is in their own immediate vicinity.

During the 60s, they probably kept it a bit simpler and had a more welcoming atmosphere which was more conducive towards unity and banding together. It was rooted more in love and hope, whereas today, there seems to be a lot more anger, hatred, and despair than anything else.

Also, for the same reasons of ego and narcissism, a lot of people have a superiority complex where their own individual ego becomes more important than whatever "cause" they claim to support. As a result, even if some of these people really are the intellectual giants they believe themselves to be, there's little indication that they're willing to actually reach out and teach, build bridges, and/or impart the knowledge that they ostensibly believe so many people are missing. Instead, they apparently wish to scorn, ridicule, judge and humiliate those who disagree with them, which they do mainly to feed their own ego and belief that they're "better" and "more enlightened" than everyone else. It's not really about banding together and solving the problems of this country.

It's just like how some people might see those who disagree with them as "stupid." If one goes around calling other people "stupid" all the time, then it's a little late to come back and say "Hey, doesn't anyone want to join us in our fight for justice??!?"

I remember having a discussion with someone on this board who typically takes a pro-liberal, anti-Trump position, yet is oftentimes very abrasive and rude during discussions. I suggested they might try the Dale Carnegie approach - "How to win friends and influence people." They said that it wasn't their style, they apparently believed it would be a "sign of weakness" (which is another appeal to egotism), and they just rejected the idea out of hand.

In another discussion, I addressed cancel culture and suggested that it was fraught with too much emotionalism and sanctimony, with too little attention on logic, reason, objectivity, or reaching out and actually teaching people whatever it is they may be ignorant about. Once someone is declared to be a "deplorable," then they are considered irredeemable and permanently shunned, as if they're some kind of "unwashed heathen." It promotes an atmosphere of general nastiness, self-righteousness, supercilious arrogance that puts a lot of people off and is non-conducive towards building any real coalitions or coming together in common cause.

Even the current wave of protests seems to be going in an odd direction. While they were initially sparked by the police murder of George Floyd - and eventually widened to include all unlawful and unjustified killings of black people at the hands of the police - their message somehow got confused and/or misconstrued. This is evidenced by all the endless rhetoric and bickering we see in social media and even here in this forum. There's also other shenanigans going on to keep people distracted and confused.

Now I can even recognize myself in some of the descriptions. But it is hard sometimes to give up on the idea/feeling of being "Right".

 

[Secret Chief]

Well, no, it is not. There are in the modern game, 3 kinds of economies, pure Communism, pure Capitalism and mixed economies. Now combine with rule of law/government you get the X axis of left/right economy and the Y axis of democracy/authoritarian.

I know this theoretical stuff. In practice, the US is proud to be the world mecca of capitalism and culturally overall anything slightly less than full on capitalism is derided as unAmerican socialism. Which is funny, but then I don't have to live there.

 

[Stevicus]

America is keen on wars, whether overt, covert, or imagined.

America is keen on fear, which is what motivates the public to support most wars.

 

[Brickjectivity]

And other countries aren't?

We can recover.

 

[Stevicus]

Now I can even recognize myself in some of the descriptions. But it is hard sometimes to give up on the idea/feeling of being "Right".

I know, but it can also lead to problems when people are trying to come together and organize for a common cause. It might mean having to subordinate one's individuality in order to be a part of a cause greater than oneself.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Why do we embrace our own idiocy this way?

Partly because of the way the Senate disproportionally represents the sparsely populated state - mostly conservative voting - which accounts for the Senate's current majority and Trump escaping conviction on his impeachment. Look at the states in beige below.

Too bad the Senate wasn't representative of the American people, but rather, of the American states, which are the citizens there. In this way, a Republcan-voting state of 1 million wields as much weight in the Senate as California, and so, even if the idiocy is limited to 35-40% of the people, Trump's usual approval rating, that minority wags the dog in the Senate.

Throw in the election tampering, which is virtual all liberal disenfranchisement (voter roll purging, throwing votes away, blocking the ability of Democrat-leaning to get to a voting booth, Russian election meddling), and liberals are simply not equally represented.

Too bad for America. Morons and their choice ran the COVID pandemic when it needed an Obama, Hillary, or Biden.

Why would a liberal want to participate in such a system (why would a conservative for that matter, but you'd have to ask them)? Forget what a bad value being an America is however you vote.

Here's a nice article comparing the COVID benefits citizens of other countries are receiving: How government COVID-19 cash handouts compare around the world | lovemoney.com

American citizens fare very poorly in this comparison, but that is to be expected in a country with America's intense hatred of government support for its citizens. Fine. Do without. Idiotic, yes, but that's America, as the OP's article asserts.

For the liberal American, it's even worse a deal. He or she contributed just as much to wealth-shifting shenanigans that took billions of dollars in taxes and gave them to those not needing them even as ordinary Americans see their small businesses failing and their jobs vanishing. That's fine for the conservative voters and tax payers, since this is what they voted for whether they know it or not. They voted for the incompetent (if not also malevolent) leadership that led to a runaway pandemic in America.

We opted out eleven years ago when we retired and moved to a mountain lake in Mexico. People don't hate one another here. Religion is not toxic here. Nobody is attacking protesters. No Columbines. We still had an incompetent government response to the pandemic, and the government has less to offer its citizens, but we're not citizens, nor paying taxes through the nose for so little back.

My just wife reordered her estrogen supplements. The patches she likes are no longer available, so she looked into having her medication shipped from the States to Mexico. The patches are scarce there as well, so she settled on returning to the pills, which cost us about $20/mo here, but she could have imported them for $190/mo, and would need a doctor's visit and prescription. Here, it's over-the-counter.

America is the country that the Fox viewers in the flyover states want. They can have my share of America. And yes, there will likely be a blue wave in 2020 as occurred in 2008 after eight years of Bush, but we saw how quickly the American voter forgot all of that and eight years later, brought the Republicans back. Idiot nation.

You'll see the same thing play out again, as the Democrats take the White House (if the election isn't too dishonest) and Senate back and begin repairing the damage done by this Republican government, only to have the idiots forget again and begin voting for Republicans again. Bank on it.

Fox will convince much of America that Biden is as unfit as it did Hillary, and we'll here the same old mantra about how they simply couldn't vote for Biden for a another handful of irrelevant reasons, and elect another monster.

How prophetic is this, just as relevant now as in 2000? :

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." - H.L. Mencken

I read Americans regularly discussing how to restore America, but I don't see it happening in our lifetimes. Some homes just can't be salvaged. One must move out and seek another home, or level the structure and rebuild from the ground up. Personally, I wasn't interested in fighting that fight for a nation that has betrayed my (and its) core values, one whose government views its citizens as capital to be exploited for profit. Let Grammy die if need be to protect estates like Trump's from financial loss. Let junior die or spread disease to his whole family if that serves corporate America's needs. They're all expendable.

Sorry, but I won't support such a nation in any way. Nor do I want to live with its conservatives, much less patronize their businesses. I have referred to the metaphor of the demented brother to illustrate living with people who vote for Republicans. The left being in league with the right is like two brothers, one demented, inheriting a business, with both partners having equal access to bank accounts, setting policy, and signing contracts.

The idiot brother hires George Bush to manage the business for years, leading to tremendous damage to the enterprise. Then the other brother has him replaced with a competent business manager or accountant or whatever, who restores financial solvency somewhat, only to find the the demented brother has fired him and hired another incompetent, this time also a crook with a four year contract, who destroys the business further.

You don't want to be partnered with such a person (I sure didn't), and there's no fixing this problem except to walk away from it and seek greener pastures.

Sorry, Republican voters, but this is how I feel about you. What are you thinking? Doesn't matter any more.

 

[Brickjectivity]

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." - H.L. Mencken

That has never been true, so Mencken was perhaps getting teary eyed over a president that he liked.

Fox will convince much of America that Biden is as unfit as it did Hillary, and we'll here the same old mantra about how they simply couldn't vote for Biden for a another handful of irrelevant reasons, and elect another monster.

The same one, not another one.

For the liberal American, it's even worse a deal. He or she contributed just as much to wealth-shifting shenanigans that took billions of dollars in taxes and gave them to those not needing them even as ordinary Americans see their small businesses failing and their jobs vanishing. That's fine for the conservative voters and tax payers, since this is what they voted for whether they know it or not. They voted for the incompetent (if not also malevolent) leadership that led to a runaway pandemic in America.

Liberal Americans are failing politically because of poor strategy of the DNC. Its doing the same thing every four years and then blaming everyone else. Joe Biden got the nomination because of cronyism, and I'm not Ok with that. He's a long time senator with friends. Therefore we have to be represented by him? The DNC has failed strategically year after year. It isn't Fox or whomsoever. It is the DNC choosing its own best buddies over stronger candidates. Cronyism. It chooses someone who can't debate, someone who can't talk, someone who has friends in the DNC. Its not enough.

 

[Secret Chief]

Partly because of the way the Senate disproportionally represents the sparsely populated state - mostly conservative voting - which accounts for the Senate's current majority and Trump escaping conviction on his impeachment. Look at the states in beige below.

Too bad the Senate wasn't representative of the American people, but rather, of the American states, which are the citizens there. In this way, a Republcan-voting state of 1 million wields as much weight in the Senate as California, and so, even if the idiocy is limited to 35-40% of the people, Trump's usual approval rating, that minority wags the dog in the Senate.

Throw in the election tampering, which is virtual all liberal disenfranchisement (voter roll purging, throwing votes away, blocking the ability of Democrat-leaning to get to a voting booth, Russian election meddling), and liberals are simply not equally represented.

Too bad for America. Morons and their choice ran the COVID pandemic when it needed an Obama, Hillary, or Biden.

Why would a liberal want to participate in such a system (why would a conservative for that matter, but you'd have to ask them)? Forget what a bad value being an America is however you vote.

Here's a nice article comparing the COVID benefits citizens of other countries are receiving: How government COVID-19 cash handouts compare around the world | lovemoney.com

American citizens fare very poorly in this comparison, but that is to be expected in a country with America's intense hatred of government support for its citizens. Fine. Do without. Idiotic, yes, but that's America, as the OP's article asserts.

For the liberal American, it's even worse a deal. He or she contributed just as much to wealth-shifting shenanigans that took billions of dollars in taxes and gave them to those not needing them even as ordinary Americans see their small businesses failing and their jobs vanishing. That's fine for the conservative voters and tax payers, since this is what they voted for whether they know it or not. They voted for the incompetent (if not also malevolent) leadership that led to a runaway pandemic in America.

We opted out eleven years ago when we retired and moved to a mountain lake in Mexico. People don't hate one another here. Religion is not toxic here. Nobody is attacking protesters. No Columbines. We still had an incompetent government response to the pandemic, and the government has less to offer its citizens, but we're not citizens, nor paying taxes through the nose for so little back.

My just wife reordered her estrogen supplements. The patches she likes are no longer available, so she looked into having her medication shipped from the States to Mexico. The patches are scarce there as well, so she settled on returning to the pills, which cost us about $20/mo here, but she could have imported them for $190/mo, and would need a doctor's visit and prescription. Here, it's over-the-counter.

America is the country that the Fox viewers in the flyover states want. They can have my share of America. And yes, there will likely be a blue wave in 2020 as occurred in 2008 after eight years of Bush, but we saw how quickly the American voter forgot all of that and eight years later, brought the Republicans back. Idiot nation.

You'll see the same thing play out again, as the Democrats take the White House (if the election isn't too dishonest) and Senate back and begin repairing the damage done by this Republican government, only to have the idiots forget again and begin voting for Republicans again. Bank on it.

Fox will convince much of America that Biden is as unfit as it did Hillary, and we'll here the same old mantra about how they simply couldn't vote for Biden for a another handful of irrelevant reasons, and elect another monster.

How prophetic is this, just as relevant now as in 2000? :

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." - H.L. Mencken

I read Americans regularly discussing how to restore America, but I don't see it happening in our lifetimes. Some homes just can't be salvaged. One must move out and seek another home, or level the structure and rebuild from the ground up. Personally, I wasn't interested in fighting that fight for a nation that has betrayed my (and its) core values, one whose government views its citizens as capital to be exploited for profit. Let Grammy die if need be to protect estates like Trump's from financial loss. Let junior die or spread disease to his whole family if that serves corporate America's needs. They're all expendable.

Sorry, but I won't support such a nation in any way. Nor do I want to live with its conservatives, much less patronize their businesses. I have referred to the metaphor of the demented brother to illustrate living with people who vote for Republicans. The left being in league with the right is like two brothers, one demented, inheriting a business, with both partners having equal access to bank accounts, setting policy, and signing contracts.

The idiot brother hires George Bush to manage the business for years, leading to tremendous damage to the enterprise. Then the other brother has him replaced with a competent business manager or accountant or whatever, who restores financial solvency somewhat, only to find the the demented brother has fired him and hired another incompetent, this time also a crook with a four year contract, who destroys the business further.

You don't want to be partnered with such a person (I sure didn't), and there's no fixing this problem except to walk away from it and seek greener pastures.

Sorry, Republican voters, but this is how I feel about you. What are you thinking? Doesn't matter any more.

That map showing representation levels is insane and utterly indefensible. It is gerrymandering on a cosmic scale. Is there no movement to change this, or does it suit both parties? It doesn't look like it would suit the Dems but I'm not up with the details. (Similarly, FPTP suits the two main parties in the UK and so is unlikely to be ditched. But at least constituencies have to have approximately the same number of constituents in each).

 

[Secret Chief]

America is keen on fear

Why do you think that is?