The most all inclusive narrative of the resurrection ever:

[BilliardsBall]

That morning, who was there and what did they see?

Thanks for asking, however, that is a question, not a statement of contradiction.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Thanks for asking, however, that is a question, not a statement of contradiction.

Answering it honestly will provide you with the contradictions you are asking about.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That is because I am dealing with close minded people. And I have given you contradictions in the Bible.

Can you be honest? The Tyre prophecy tests the honesty of Christians and far too many fail.

So, you have a reason to be close-minded. Not a good attitude, I retain an open mind and look up each contradiction and Bible assault I'm presented with, and have done so for decades. Telling me you have a reason to be close-minded, when there is almost never a reason to be so, is why we cannot have this debate. Stop wasting my precious time.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So, you have a reason to be close-minded. Not a good attitude, I retain an open mind and look up each contradiction and Bible assault I'm presented with, and have done so for decades. Telling me you have a reason to be close-minded, when there is almost never a reason to be so, is why we cannot have this debate. Stop wasting my precious time.

I am not the close minded one here. Find some valid evidence for you beliefs and I will change my mind. You are projecting your faults onto others since you have demonstrated that you are close minded You do not have an open mind, or at least an open mind that can learn.

The question is:

Can you be honest? Most literalists know that they can't be honest so they will not even answer the question. I can be honest. I do admit when I have been proven wrong. Any honest Christian has to admit sooner or later that there are countless flaws in the Bible or they are simply not honest Christians. They make the error of assuming that the Bible has to be true for their beliefs to be true. That is a belief of the weak in faith.

 

[CG Didymus]

Answering it honestly will provide you with the contradictions you are asking about.

Since he hasn't answered yet, I'm a little concerned. This whole thread is about that very contradictory story. If Christians see no contradiction, then what do they believe really happened? The only answer I've ever gotten is that different witnesses see the same event in different ways and remember different things. But, to me, that's still saying the stories contradict. Somehow, Christians act as if by explaining why the stories are different makes the stories no longer contradictory.

 

[CG Didymus]

I am not the close minded one here. Find some valid evidence for you beliefs and I will change my mind. You are projecting your faults onto others since you have demonstrated that you are close minded You do not have an open mind, or at least an open mind that can learn.

The question is:

Can you be honest? Most literalists know that they can't be honest so they will not even answer the question. I can be honest. I do admit when I have been proven wrong. Any honest Christian has to admit sooner or later that there are countless flaws in the Bible or they are simply not honest Christians. They make the error of assuming that the Bible has to be true for their beliefs to be true. That is a belief of the weak in faith.

To the best of my ability, I tried to give Christianity an honest try. I was taught the basics and told to start reading the Bible, starting with the New Testament. Of course there was problems. Not only did I find contradictions in the Bible, but contradictions between how different denominations interpreted the Bible.

The attitude towards apparent contradictions in the Bible was to assume the Bible is inerrant so there must be a logical explanation. If the person had a problem with the "logical" explanation given to them by pastors and Bible teachers, then the problem was with them. Like the devil was trying to confuse them and trying to make them doubt God's Word. So a "true" Christian can't admit there are errors or contradictions. So for a Christian to think they are open minded? I don't think so, but I wouldn't expect them to be. I'd expect them to be sadly locked in and in denial of anything that goes against their beliefs.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

If Christians see no contradiction, then what do they believe really happened?

Personally, *inhales*:

Jesus and Judas had grand plans to make a big protest in Jerusalem. The goal was to shame the religious leadership and bring about reforms. Meanwhile, Peter feared Jesus' death would take from his 15 minutes of fame and his importance. Peter betrays Jesus three times and to deflect, pins the blame on Judas. Alternatively, the religious leadership tries to shame Christianity by suggesting Jesus' death was an inside job. At any rate, Jesus' plan backfired and he cried out to God for an escape, but he made his bed and now he had to lie in it. Jesus was tortured and crucified, assumed to be dead, entombed, and he recovered from his wounds in a few days and then high-tailed it out of the country.

 

[CG Didymus]

Personally, *inhales*:

Jesus and Judas had grand plans to make a big protest in Jerusalem. The goal was to shame the religious leadership and bring about reforms. Meanwhile, Peter feared Jesus' death would take from his 15 minutes of fame and his importance. Peter betrays Jesus three times and to deflect, pins the blame on Judas. Alternatively, the religious leadership tries to shame Christianity by suggesting Jesus' death was an inside job. At any rate, Jesus' plan backfired and he cried out to God for an escape, but he made his bed and now he had to lie in it. Jesus was tortured and crucified, assumed to be dead, entombed, and he recovered from his wounds in a few days and then high-tailed it out of the country.

Is that the gospel truth?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I am not the close minded one here. Find some valid evidence for you beliefs and I will change my mind. You are projecting your faults onto others since you have demonstrated that you are close minded You do not have an open mind, or at least an open mind that can learn.

The question is:

Can you be honest? Most literalists know that they can't be honest so they will not even answer the question. I can be honest. I do admit when I have been proven wrong. Any honest Christian has to admit sooner or later that there are countless flaws in the Bible or they are simply not honest Christians. They make the error of assuming that the Bible has to be true for their beliefs to be true. That is a belief of the weak in faith.

I am honest. You claim you are open-minded, then say things like, "You have no possible refutation for contradiction X, but do you're best, then I'll explain how you failed." You literally said that a few posts ago!

Is that how scientific-minded people speak, regardless of their open-mindedness? "Here is my theory regarding a contradiction in an ancient document, for which I have no counter documents, nor was I present, nor can I control test. I know less of the ancient languages then you, consider the documents wholly fraudulent despite their numerous historical accuracies and verifications via archaeology, so you respond so I can tell you how you're wrong, no matter what new or old argument you present."

You would be laughed out of a scientific conference. At least I'm politely explaining why it is that it would be an egregious waste of time to explain to you Bible accuracy. I can go to other people, who are significantly open-minded, let them weigh the evidence. Some will convert to Christianity.

Good luck to you.

 

[sojourner]

It sounds like you're trying to say the Bible contains contradictions. Fortunately, science knows all things including what happens when a person dies.

The Bible contains many contradictions. That’s the nature of that kind of collected literature.

 

[sojourner]

My Bachelor's is from a secular university where most religion professors are atheists or agnostic.

I don't have to "try to reinterpret" anything, but I know when people pull things out of context, don't understand Judaism and Hebraic thought, haven't even considered commonly available Greek and Hebrew to English tools and etc.

Your logic problem is you seem to think the last several billion people who've loved the Bible somehow missed "all the obvious contradictions." I call baloney.

Loving the Bible includes reading it critically. Read critically and using all tools available to get beyond bias reveals contradictions.

 

[sojourner]

so none of the people of testament.....ever lived?

They may have lived. But the only one we know of who wrote anything is Paul. And he was not an eyewitness, writing, at best, 15 years after the fact, and never about Jesus’ life events from a historical perspective.

 

[sojourner]

I am honest. You claim you are open-minded, then say things like, "You have no possible refutation for contradiction X, but do you're best, then I'll explain how you failed." You literally said that a few posts ago!

Is that how scientific-minded people speak, regardless of their open-mindedness? "Here is my theory regarding a contradiction in an ancient document, for which I have no counter documents, nor was I present, nor can I control test. I know less of the ancient languages then you, consider the documents wholly fraudulent despite their numerous historical accuracies and verifications via archaeology, so you respond so I can tell you how you're wrong, no matter what new or old argument you present."

You would be laughed out of a scientific conference. At least I'm politely explaining why it is that it would be an egregious waste of time to explain to you Bible accuracy. I can go to other people, who are significantly open-minded, let them weigh the evidence. Some will convert to Christianity.

Good luck to you.

If you want to talk credentials, I’ll see your bachelor’s, raise you a master’s (with honors) and I probably have more experience with Hebrew and Kione Greek than you, and I agree with Subduction Zone. All the posturing aside, I’ve more than a fair amount of experience with exegeting the texts, studying under some of the best minds in the discipline. The Bible contains contradictions. They are clearly there. And none of them subtracts one iota from the truths to which the texts speak.

 

[Thief]

They may have lived. But the only one we know of who wrote anything is Paul. And he was not an eyewitness, writing, at best, 15 years after the fact, and never about Jesus’ life events from a historical perspective.

Damn......and I thought I was the only person that knew!

yeah....that episode of a blinding light
several days blind
followed by a name change and
a completely different personality......

sounds like a stroke to me

and He wrote almost half of the new testament

but out of the discussion about resurrection......what is your take on that?

I think it happens in that hour of the last breath
you die
then your spirit stands

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am honest. You claim you are open-minded, then say things like, "You have no possible refutation for contradiction X, but do you're best, then I'll explain how you failed." You literally said that a few posts ago!

I don't think that you understand what the word literally means. That was an opinion based upon experience. It would have in all likelihood demonstrated that you can't be honest when it comes to your book of myths. If a Christian cannot admit that the Tyre prophecy is a failed prophecy then they can't be honest.

Is that how scientific-minded people speak, regardless of their open-mindedness? "Here is my theory regarding a contradiction in an ancient document, for which I have no counter documents, nor was I present, nor can I control test. I know less of the ancient languages then you, consider the documents wholly fraudulent despite their numerous historical accuracies and verifications via archaeology, so you respond so I can tell you how you're wrong, no matter what new or old argument you present."

This is a weak and dishonest strawman. You are refuting your initial claim already.

You would be laughed out of a scientific conference. At least I'm politely explaining why it is that it would be an egregious waste of time to explain to you Bible accuracy. I can go to other people, who are significantly open-minded, let them weigh the evidence. Some will convert to Christianity.

Good luck to you.

Please, when you base your argument on a false claim about an inanalogous situation you fail.

So, before we go on, can you be honest? So far you have failed.

 

[BilliardsBall]

If you want to talk credentials, I’ll see your bachelor’s, raise you a master’s (with honors) and I probably have more experience with Hebrew and Kione Greek than you, and I agree with Subduction Zone. All the posturing aside, I’ve more than a fair amount of experience with exegeting the texts, studying under some of the best minds in the discipline. The Bible contains contradictions. They are clearly there. And none of them subtracts one iota from the truths to which the texts speak.

My credentials include an intimate relationship with the author, and being His ambassador, supported by Him as I support His chosen texts.

How may a person be saved is a good question. You don't think people who see contradictions between salvation by faith and salvation by works are "avoiding subtracting one iota from Bible truth"?

 

[Subduction Zone]

My credentials include an intimate relationship with the author, and being His ambassador, supported by Him as I support His chosen texts.

How may a person be saved is a good question. You don't think people who see contradictions between salvation by faith and salvation by works are "avoiding subtracting one iota from Bible truth"?

So none at all. That is what we all thought. Your "credentials" are no better than anyone else's here. You do not need to believe the myths of the Bible to understand them. In fact belief often gets in the way of understanding.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I don't think that you understand what the word literally means. That was an opinion based upon experience. It would have in all likelihood demonstrated that you can't be honest when it comes to your book of myths. If a Christian cannot admit that the Tyre prophecy is a failed prophecy then they can't be honest.



This is a weak and dishonest strawman. You are refuting your initial claim already.




Please, when you base your argument on a false claim about an inanalogous situation you fail.

So, before we go on, can you be honest? So far you have failed.

But you literally did say that. "Go ahead and try, no matter what you possibly come up with as a refutation, I'll show you how you're wrong."

That is an exceptionally closed-minded statement. So go bother another person, please. I like debating, even relish debating, with someone who can vigorously defend their stance while evolving to understand the other's position better, and being willing to change if they are wrong.

Your "opinion based on experience" was presented dogmatically AFTER I said "prove you are open minded" and shows you have neither respect for me nor self-respect, to be open to new knowledge, new experience. Your statement was an epitome of the pride Christians accuse skeptics of.

I'm not concerned if you put me on ignore or if I refuse to debate your "contradictions", since you claim to be open-minded, if you are seeking truth, the Bible says you will find your way to Jesus, even without my personal intervention, high degree of Bible knowledge, and exceptional experience in de-hoaxing "contradictions".

 

[Subduction Zone]

But you literally did say that. "Go ahead and try, no matter what you possibly come up with as a refutation, I'll show you how you're wrong."

That is an exceptionally closed-minded statement. So go bother another person, please. I like debating, even relish debating, with someone who can vigorously defend their stance while evolving to understand the other's position better, and being willing to change if they are wrong.

Your "opinion based on experience" was presented dogmatically AFTER I said "prove you are open minded" and shows you have neither respect for me nor self-respect, to be open to new knowledge, new experience. Your statement was an epitome of the pride Christians accuse skeptics of.

I'm not concerned if you put me on ignore or if I refuse to debate your "contradictions", since you claim to be open-minded, if you are seeking truth, the Bible says you will find your way to Jesus, even without my personal intervention, high degree of Bible knowledge, and exceptional experience in de-hoaxing "contradictions".

Still have trouble with the word "literally" I see.

And no that was not a close minded thing to say. It was a prediction based upon past experience. I see that you could not take the proper action and find a failure of the Bible that you could defend.

And you do not seem to understand the word "dogma" either. With your poor use of the English language and misusing terms in an attempt to insult do you think that we will get anywhere? This is not a proper debating technique.

And there is no need to scare quote the word "contradictions" they are there and they are obvious to the honest. One of the reasons that I use the Tyre prophecy is to test the honesty of Christians. To defend that prophesy they have to debase all prophecy to the point of the claim that "You will see a red car" becomes a prophecy of biblical proportion. You make prophecy worthless by defending the indefensible.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Is that the gospel truth?

I like to think so. It seems to fit the general gist of what supposedly happened.

sounds like a stroke to me

I was going to go with mental break, but whatever. It could also just be the story he told Christians to better infiltrate the group.