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The mind of a child

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Ok, I am being a bit lazy. I wrote this two months ago and posted it up on Islam.com where it landed with an audible "Thud". I really had never heard a word about this until I saw a message from Robtex. He was talking about examining beliefs. I was enchanted. Robtex, you will quickly understand why I had to pull this post from Islam.com and insert it here, and I hope you enjoy.

The mind of a child
Posted by YmirGF on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 on the forums at www.islam.com
Comment:
Let me tell you a little story.

Around the time I was twenty years old or so, I hit upon an idea that filled my mind with intrigue. I was reading a book of some sort and the author recommended that the best way to understand what one believed was to make a journal. In this journal, you simply wrote down anything and everything you believed. To be thorough, the author suggested to keep jotting down things, as they came to you, over a period of a few months. He mentioned that after an indeterminate time everyone would eventually run out of ideas. He said that at that point one just "close the book" and put it away. Got it so far?

After perhaps a week or two, just as it is fading from your conscious awareness, you should then start to read all you have written down. Now for me, this took several months in fact and then I took the summer off, as it were, and came back to it in the fall.

That fall I began reading. I had managed to fill a 50 page loose-leaf binder with all the ideas I believed. What makes this interesting is that this author stated that you should not only write down "big" beliefs, but also things you only "sort of" believed in and to note those passages accordingly. (Updated note: Subjective beliefs only. You will do yourself no favours if you write things like, “I believe the sky is blue.” Technically, you are welcome to write any sort of beliefs whatsoever. However, if you get too deep into non-subjective beliefs, you may never finish the journal and this will become a pointless exercise.)

Bear in mind, for me this was almost thirty years ago and all this was done in ballpoint pen. The Old Fashioned Way. People, were "Word processors" in those days, LOL. Please, do NOT do what I did. Dummy me, being a pure sot of Scottish ancestry, found it impossible not to use both side of the pages I was writing on. (Updated Note: Yes, I know it is a bit wasteful, but use ONLY one side of each page. It doesn’t matter which side, hehe.)

This presented a bit of a problem later on, as you will see. I realized, as I read, that it was easy to spot common beliefs, or beliefs that were rather similar. There were also those nasty, clearly noted, "sort of" beliefs too. (Updated Note: You will find, as you are writing this over a period of months, that you will simply reword the same belief in different ways. Do not just chuck them out, during the analysis stage. Examine each one, against the others, that they are similar to. You might just find some subtle nuances. “God is in the details.”)

What I found as I read, was a real hodgepodge, simply because I wrote things down over a period of weeks, AS they occurred to me. (And yes, a few notes were on serviettes and candy bar wrappers I would take home with me to transcribe into "the journal".) I'm not even sure why I am telling you this, but maybe someone will take the hint.

Anyway... I read through the whole thing a few times and had a few laughs, when I spotted one idea that did not go along with another idea. They were at odds. I remember blinking and thinking... "Well, which is it? Make up your mind." So I began the slow, painstaking process of tracking through my own mind and understanding how the ideas began to fit together.

I quickly found that my journal was just too unwieldy, as the pages began to get battered from constant flipping back and forth. I thought. “If only each one was on a separate card. I could just spread them out and easily rearrange them in the proper order.” So blissfully, I set out to copy every odd page onto a fresh sheet of paper. It didn't take too long to finish this and then I went back to the original pages and put a large X across all the odd numbered pages. I then reached for my handy dandy scissors and began to have a ball cutting it all up.

In no time, I had fifty pages cut into pieces in my lap and so I began to spread them out on my bedroom floor. At some point my mom came into my room and just cracked up laughing. She asked, in a somewhat imperious tone, just what was I up to now. I chirped what I was doing and we both laughed pretty hard. When she had opened the door, I had paper ALL over the floor!

My parents were pretty used to me and my wacky ideas, so they took it all in stride. Well, I spent several nights sifting through the piles, gaining back my floor space. (Updated Note: It actually did not take all that long to organize things. When you examine many ideas you will understand why you believe them rather rapidly. Remember, you are not out to “get yourself”, but simply trying to understand why you believe the things you believe.)

Even at the age of twenty, I was struck by the fact of sitting there, quite literally, surrounded by my beliefs. It WAS amazing. I will tell you that I really just had the luck of fool and merrily proceeded to dissect what I read. I began to arrange these random bits of papers in logical order. Trust me, if you do this, you will see what I mean. One notices right off the bat, certain belief just go together.

One also notices those annoying "sort of, kind of" beliefs. They stand out like a sore thumb.

After things were organized, I made the simple decision to give thought to the things I wasn't sure about. (Updated Note: The key is to be open-minded and critical of what is in front of you. If you find that you don’t entirely agree with and idea, try to discover WHY.)
Many ideas dissolved in the next few months, as I analysed them and decided which I didn’t want and which ones were worth keeping around. It sounds odd, I realize, but again, if you tried this you would quickly understand what I am getting at.

(Updated Note: There is no time frame for the analysis stage. It is largely determined by how thoroughly you wish to go through things. Some ideas, you will feel comfortable with and you will not have to rack your brain too hard, in order to understand why you believe them. Other thing will surprise you. In theory, one could spend the rest of their life sifting through, but I wouldn’t suggest being that gung-ho. It may be helpful to note some beliefs as “unresolved” and simply “park” them. You can come back to them once the project is done. Again, God may be in the details, but don’t go too crazy. It is meant to be fun.)

That, my friends, brings us to what are called "conflicting beliefs". I hit on conflicting beliefs AFTER going through the "sorta, kinda" beliefs and AFTER they were resolved to my satisfaction. (The idea being, as long as you are HAPPY with what you decide on, right and wrong becomes a value judgement.) These were beliefs that ultimately did not agree with each other. Trust me... YOU WILL find them LOL.

I must state clearly. This was not an undertaking following any psychological doctrine; say from the theories of psychiatry. IT was undertaken purely as a personal exposition. It really is almost a game. I was a young adult and was simply having some rather intellectual "fun". This game would eventually result in catharsis after catharsis, as I homed my way in on the "big" beliefs. In some ways, it was like peeling an onion and I began to appreciate that beliefs and belief structure, actually have texture of a sorts. You see, the "big" beliefs are deeply tied to emotion and that is where the fun really began. (Updated Note: Those big beliefs are tied directly to you views about yourself.)

As a result of this unusual "hobby" it became apparent exactly how I viewed my own reality or how I viewed my world. It was, after all, right there in front of me, so it was a bit hard to miss. When you get rid of the chaff, the wheat remains. It is for this reason that I took such offence at being called "unlearned" recently. I understand that I should not be offended by ignorance, but then again I am only human. I am after all is said and done, a mere thinking, feeling, living, breathing, and loving person, just like you. I would ask, "Have you done this much?" Trust me, it adds a delicious new dimension to "Know thyself".

This is a very simple thing, anyone can do. This is a key that will literally unlock your mind. And it is given freely. :) May your god shine upon you and fill you with his love. God knows, you are worth it. If only you can let yourself. BE!


This Clear Proof is brought to you by YmirGF, Sept. 13, 2005.

Offer void where prohibited. All rights reserved.

(That last line is supposed to be like a TV voiceover and is a joke.)
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Interesting. But, what kind of beliefs do you mean? Could you maybe tell a few ideas, because I seriously don't know! :)
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Yes. I just wasn't sure if you should put stuff like, "I believe the earth revolves around the sun" or something like that.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Grammar and spell checked. *sigh* I really have to stop typing with my elbows.

Updated to cover some areas that were glossed over. The original was written off the top of my head in a forum, after all. It is not like I was writing a doctoral thesis.

I would be delighted to discuss any aspect of this, even the validity of doing such a thing.
 

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
"conflicting beliefs".
I believe for the last few months I've had to wrestle with this. Things that I was told when I was younger now do not make sense.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
jeffrey said:
"conflicting beliefs".
I believe for the last few months I've had to wrestle with this. Things that I was told when I was younger now do not make sense.

Precisely Jeffrey. Conflicting beliefs can be considered to be almost at war with each other and are usually different facets of the dualistic coin. The point is, I believe that conflicting belief structures cause unexpected mental stress. Remove the stress and the mind gravitates to its natural state which is happiness.

Forgive a silly old fart, who has the insane delusion, that by understanding ourselves we will inadvertently become happy. Once back in that natural state we are then able to relish the residual effects of that happiness, which is commonly referred to as peace of mind. I could be wrong, but somehow, I doubt it.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Paul,

Have your beliefs changed much over time? Or have you found they have deepened with more 'evidence'?
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Buttercup said:
Paul,

Have your beliefs changed much over time? Or have you found they have deepened with more 'evidence'?

Interesting question Buttercup.

My belief structures are always evolving. The cornerstones have not changed much over the decades, but have become clearer. It is sort of like, I started wearing a hundred thousand pairs of glasses. With each "new" realization, another set come off, and things become a bit more clear.

I know it sounds silly, but my main "evidence" is my lasting happiness and peace of mind. This is so pronounced in me that I am in fact a bit of an oddity. For example, in a crisis I am the guy who is as cool as a cucumber. (And the one who will find something humorous about the situation.) People have commented to me, over the years, that they do find it a bit unnerving. Ah, well, you can't win 'em all, I suppose. I guess some might also describe me as having ice-water in my veins, as I can be rather cold and aloof. I have described elsewhere, that when I was very young, I was your proverbial Mr. Spock. Well, the Mr. Spock, is still very alive and doing rather well, and that aspect of me has never really let me down.

I think the magic turning point for "Mr. Spock", was when I learned to feel and to allow my emotions to roll as they will. Not to say I will become a screaming nut at a drop of a hat, (that would be very out of character), but I simply allow my emotions to run their course. It just seems to be a natural thing to do. Like, why fight it, eh?

I hope that answers your question. If it doesn't just smack me on the back of the head and I'll see if I can do better.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
I think I understand. And it kind of goes along with my thinking that most people don't really change much. I am much the same myself except that, as hard to believe as it might be, I am more open minded the older I get. When I was young....I needed most things given to me in absolutes. I felt secure with absolutes...it was what I wanted to hear. Now, I feel the need to take everything in first and then decide.....

But, I don't really feel a whole lot differently than when I was younger but I do ask more questions about everything under the sun now. I didn't feel confident enough to do that in my youth. I was afraid I'd hear things I couldn't deal with. Now I know I can deal with the surprise answers. Does this make sense? It does to me....but, then I always make sense to myself! :biglaugh:
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Buttercup said:
I think I understand. And it kind of goes along with my thinking that most people don't really change much. I am much the same myself except that, as hard to believe as it might be, I am more open minded the older I get. When I was young....I needed most things given to me in absolutes. I felt secure with absolutes...it was what I wanted to hear. Now, I feel the need to take everything in first and then decide.....

But, I don't really feel a whole lot differently than when I was younger but I do ask more questions about everything under the sun now. I didn't feel confident enough to do that in my youth. I was afraid I'd hear things I couldn't deal with. Now I know I can deal with the surprise answers. Does this make sense? It does to me....but, then I always make sense to myself! :biglaugh:

I will largely agree with most of what you are saying Buttercup. What can I add to that? Hmmm. Yeah, when I first got my "mental footing", I was rather the extremist. LOL. You have no idea, but then again, perhaps you do.

True, when I was young, I wasn't too confident, like, I didn't doubt my experiences for a second. But ... hmmm... I just didn't know how to express it. So I just kept silent. It slowly began to dawn on my peabrain that I needed real life experience to balance my inner experience. As I got older, it began to become clear, there is little point to inner experience if you cannot equate it to what is in your own backyard.

and yes, I too, ask a lot more questions now. You see, to my way of thinking, it isn't the answers that are important. The brass ring is asking the right questions. Garbage in; garbage out.
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
A couple of years ago, I decided to write down a discourse of my religious and philosophical leanings. I wanted follow Descartes approach in breaking everything down to one indubitable premise and building it up from there. I found many of my current beliefs were in complete contradiction with that premise, and therefore through them all away. It also led me to study other's that I held more deeply in which allowed them to follow logically from my premise. It also led me to pursue other beliefs to find if any others followed logically from my premise.

My premise was... "The only constant is change." So the biggest inevidibility that came out of my discourse was that my discourse constantly changes. And i'm ok with that.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Master Vigil said:
My premise was... "The only constant is change." So the biggest inevidibility that came out of my discourse was that my discourse constantly changes. And i'm ok with that.

Nice. I agree. Again, I think it goes back to rigid thinking.

In theory, life is a puzzle. With each step, we take we see another piece, which allows us to take the next step... ad infinitum. I think where people go wrong is when they hold on to a small piece of the puzzle and loudly exclaim "I see the whole picture." They then put down roots and start building their castles in the sky, based on that one small piece.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Master Vigil said:
A couple of years ago, I decided to write down a discourse of my religious and philosophical leanings. I wanted follow Descartes approach in breaking everything down to one indubitable premise and building it up from there. I found many of my current beliefs were in complete contradiction with that premise, and therefore through them all away. It also led me to study other's that I held more deeply in which allowed them to follow logically from my premise. It also led me to pursue other beliefs to find if any others followed logically from my premise.

Understood, and trust me on that, but what do you think of this excercise, as given? Do you think there is any value in it?
 

kreeden

Virus of the Mind
It would be a very interesting exercise YmirGF . :)

The conflicting believes don't surprise me . Most systems of idealogy { if not all } tend to appear to contradict themselves at times . { for excample " Thou shall not kill ", yet we kill every day to survive } . As you say , life can be chaotic .

Know thy self . :) It is the root of all understanding I think . And yet it can be very frightening ground ...
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
kreeden said:
It would be a very interesting exercise YmirGF . :)

The conflicting believes don't surprise me . Most systems of idealogy { if not all } tend to appear to contradict themselves at times . { for excample " Thou shall not kill ", yet we kill every day to survive } . As you say , life can be chaotic .

Know thy self . :) It is the root of all understanding I think . And yet it can be very frightening ground ...

Thanks so much for stoppin in Kreeden. Always appreciate your thoughts.
BTW: How is the Art of Dreaming coming along. (Me bad, I have not picked it up yet. I was sort of waiting to see what YOU thought of it.)

But back to your observation "yet it can be frightening ground". Yes, it can be or I suppose COULD be. What I don't say in the text is that one has to be prepared to look at themselves with almost brutal honesty. I am also very interested in anyone's thoughts who has training in Psychiatry... to see if they think it is even a good idea, for individual to attempt such a thing. Another point I should make is that this is an excercise designed for "stable" people, although I highly doubt "unstable" people would even consider doing it.
 

Scarlett Wampus

psychonaut
YmirGF it looks like an excellent contemplative exercise to me.

I'm not professionally trained in psychiatry but many of my friends and even some family members are so I've picked up quite a bit. I can't see this exercise becoming a problem unless there are already difficulties that encouraging it might exacerbate, e.g. obsessive compulsive disorder.
 

kreeden

Virus of the Mind
Also , I don't think that most people are honest enough with theirsleves for it to become a problem ... althought writing it down could get one thinking . :) But I think that most would just say " What was I thinking when I wrote that "... and carry on .

As for " The Art of Dreaming ", I kinda came up agaisnt a stumbling block I'm afraid . :) I was hoping that you would read it and see what your take was on it .
 
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