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Featured The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 15, 2019.

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  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    This is what I do not understand. [I'll lay it out like a syllogism.:)]

    P1: Observing the 4th Commandment is doing 'the letter of the law'. [Deut.5:1-5]

    P2: Observing the 'letter of the law' [doing 'the deeds of the law'] is called 'works'. [Romans 3:20]

    C: Observing the 4th Commandment is called 'works' [,and is, therefore, not of grace. Romans 11:6].

    How can you claim to walk by grace, and be dead to the law, if you still observe the letter of the 4th Commandment?

    If you're going to observe the letter of the 4th Commandment, you must observe to DO the 'WHOLE LAW'! [James 2:10]
     
    #821 Redemptionsong, Apr 16, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
  2. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The example given by James in James 2:10-11 is with respect to the Law, and the examples given with respect to the Law was "adultery", the 7th commandment, and "murder", the 6th commandment, which is with respect to the "royal law", that of loving your neighbor.(Deut 19:18) & James 2:8. As for Deut 5:1-5, the words spoken directly to Israel by the LORD, they were summarized in Dt 5:7-21, the 10 commandments. You are adding on Deut 6 which are the words spoken by Moses. As for the ramblings of the false prophet Paul, that leads to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13-15). As for the false gospel of grace, well, that is the message of the false prophet. Paul guaranteed his listeners that "we shall not all sleep"/die, yet Paul and everyone of his listener are dead, and none have been changed in a twinkling of an eye. On the other hand, scripture says "every one will die for his own iniquity/sin" (Jeremiah 31:30). Who is lying, the scripture, or the false prophet Paul? Who has been "deceived"? Is it those "who dwell on the earth"? (Rev 13:14) Where do you have your mail delivered?
     
  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Do you really still not get it my dear friend? I believe according to the scriptures it is the letter of the law that leads to the Spirit of the law. This is the same as saying the letter of the Word leads to the Spirit of the Word. Why? Because we are only saved by God's GRACE through "FAITH" and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. How does the letter lead to the Spirit? By Faith because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *ROMANS 10:17. God's Spirit is the Spirit of the Word *JOHN 6:63 which we receive by God's Grace through faith. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. Faith if it does not have works is dead and the faith of devils *JAMES 2:18-20- 26

    Hope this helps.
     
    #823 3rdAngel, Apr 16, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
  4. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Let's be honest! All along, you have not just claimed that the letter of the law leads to the Spirit of the law, you have been arguing that once we have the Spirit we are still to follow the letter of the law. I am saying, in accordance with the teaching of Paul, that once we are born-again of God's Spirit we are no longer under 'works', the letter of the law.

    [Post 814.You say, 'I believe as posted earlier according to the scriptures no one has God's Spirit and follows the Spirit of the law without following the letter of the law because the Spirit works through the letter in those who believe it.']

    My argument has always been that the faith of Abraham, to whom the promise was made, was without the covenant of law. You have always contended that the covenant of law was in existence under Abraham. [Post 509]

    You have also contended that the Ten Commandments, the covenant made at Horeb, is an everlasting covenant [Post 787]. I say that only the covenant of faith in Christ is everlasting. I understand the law to have been our schoolmaster to Christ. Since the 'letter of the law' has a beginning [at Horeb] and an end [in Christ], it must be temporary.

    Furthermore, you understand the fruit of our faith, and of the Spirit, as translating into obedience to the letter of the law, as with the 4th Commandment. I see the fruit of the Spirit as being the fruit of love only [Galatians 5:22].

    I have based this summary on your words and posts, and, as such, I think it a fair summary of our differences. Even in the Post above you say, 'OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE.' Once again, I say that 'obedience to God's law' is an observance of the letter of the law, and is, therefore, a 'work' of the law.

    The 'works' that are acceptable, and of which James speaks, are works that follow faith. These are works of the Spirit, not the law.
     
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  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    If you believe that Paul's teaching is 'the message of a false prophet', what do you think the promise to Abraham was all about? [Genesis 17:1-8] Was it a promise based on faith, or a promise based on works?

    When do you think the promise, based on faith, came in to effect?
     
  6. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "covenant" God made with Abraham, the father of a multitude (Gen 17:4), was the covenant of circumcision (Genesis 17:10-11). It was a covenant based on action/works. It was Paul who undermined that covenant with the people/multitudes/nations (Zechariah 11:9-10), one of the three shepherds the LORD "annihilated in one month (generation), the other two being Peter, the "worthless shepherd" (Zechariah 11:17), and Judas Iscariot (Zechariah 11:12-13).

    "Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.". Genesis 26:5.
     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Abraham certainly did obey God's voice; and kept His charge, commandments, statutes and laws. And, Abram/Abraham remained faithful to the promise of salvation made in Christ.

    Genesis 17:7,8. 'And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee,
    And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.'

    A promise like this is to be BELIEVED. It is not a work of law.

    We know that faith is counted for righteousness because in Genesis 15:6 it says, 'And he [Abram] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it to him [Abram] for righteousness.'

    So we return to the question of when faith and righteousness become effective through the promise made to Abraham. Surely, it is when salvation is made available through faith in Christ.

    When is that?

    TODAY!
     
    #827 Redemptionsong, Apr 17, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2020
  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I believe in all sincerity dear friend you are the one not being honest. Your the one making strawman arguments no one is talking about and trying to claim I am saying things I have never said or believe even after directly telling you what I believe so you did not have any misunderstanding. To me this is simply being dishonest and is something I will leave with you and God to work through.

    As shown through the scriptures to you many times now. God's Spirit is the Spirit of the Word of God *JOHN 6:63. God's Spirit is not separate from God's Word it works through God's Word as we believe what God's Word says *ROMANS 10:17. As we believe what God's Word says God's Spirit works in us to will and to do of His (God's) own good pleasure. This is God's work in us not our own *PHILIPPIANS 2:13, that the righteousness of God's law is fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (the Word) *ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16. Faith according to God's law does not abolish God's LAW it establishes God's LAW in the life of those who believe God's Word *ROMANS 3:31.

    As posted to you many times now. We are only saved by God's GRACE through "FAITH" and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. How does the letter lead to the Spirit? By Faith because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *ROMANS 10:17. God's Spirit is the Spirit of the Word *JOHN 6:63 which we receive by God's Grace through faith. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. Faith if it does not have works is dead and the faith of devils *JAMES 2:18-20- 26.

    You say here "let's be honest!" Yet I believe dear friend it is you who is the one being dishonest by pretending to say things I have never said or believe and by making strawman arguments no one is arguing about or has said. How is that being honest on your behalf?
    No one said we are under the works of the law. Do you understand that the new covenant is God's LAW of love written on the heart to love and it is love that fulfills God's law (does God's Law) in those who walk in God's Spirit? *HEBREWS 8:10; ROMANS 13:8-10; JAMES 2:8-12; ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16. This is why JESUS says on these two great commandments of Love hang all the law and the prophets *MATTHEW 22:36-40. Do you love JESUS dear Redemptionsong?
    I believe your argument would be wrong as proven by scripture..

    GENESIS 26:5 [5] Because that ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, AND KEPT MY CHARGE, MY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUTES, AND MY LAWS.

    How can you have the Spirit of the law if you first do not have the letter of the law which tells you what the law is as it is written again "Faith come by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" ROMANS 10:17 now you would agree that we are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH and not of ourselves and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9 right?

    Are you ready please pay attention dear friend?

    Please look at your argument. How can you have faith which is a requirement for salvation *EPHESIANS 2:8-9; JOHN 3:16-19 and recieving God's Spirit *EPHESIANS 1:13 when you do not have the letter of the Word that brings faith and this same faith in God's Word brings God's Spirit?

    I believe dear friend your argument is nonsense for the reasons here by the scriptures shared with you. I believe deep down inside you can see what I am sharing with you is God's truth. What will you do dear Redemptionsong? Will you believe God's Word and receive God's blessings or reject God's Word and turn away from the scriptures?
    Are you being honest now? Please post me in post 787 where I have ever said God's 10 commandments are the covenant made at Horeb and an everlasting covenant? I thought you wanted to be honest yet here you are again posting things I have never said? I have stated that God's 10 commandments are eternal and posted the supporting scriptures showing as such in the new covenant. Which it seems you do not believe so instead seek to say things I have never said or believe. I will leave this for you and God to work through. Anyone interesed in visiting post 787 can see for themselves that I have never said what you are claiming here in this post.
    I would simply point you to the scriptures that disagree with you. Faith in Christ does not abolish God's LAW it establishes God's LAW. This is God's new covenant promise.

    ROMANS 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID: WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

    ROMANS 8:4 THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

    HEBREWS 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, said the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND AND WRITE THIM IN THEIR HEARTS [spirit of the law]: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

    ROMANS 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.

    Note: the Greek word used here for FULFILLED G4137 πληρόω; plēroō means to execute and to satisfy; to accomplish; to perfect; to complete; to perfect or to supply or give. The context is the law nomos; application and context is the 10 commandments.

    [9], For this, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT KILL, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, YOU SHALL NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.
    [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

    JAMES 2:8-12 [8], IF YOU FULFILL THE ROYAL LAW ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF, YOU DO WELL: [9], But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. [10], FOR WHOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, AND YET OFFEND IN ONE POINT, HE IS GUILTY OF ALL.[11], FOR HE THAT SAID, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, SAID ALSO, DO NOT KILL. NOW IF YOU COMMIT NO ADULTERY, YET IF YOU KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW.
    [12], So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

    ROMANS 8:13 [13], FOR IF YOU LIVE AFTER THE FLESH, YOU SHALL DIE: BUT IF YOU THROUGH THE SPIRIT DO MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, YOU SHALL LIVE.

    GALATIANS 5:16 [16], This I say then, WALK IN THE SPIRIT, AND YOU SHALL NOT FULFILL THE LUST OF THE FLESH.

    Faith does not abolish God's LAW as shown through the scriptures it establishes Gods' LAW in the life of those who believe God's Word. If you continue in sin (breaking God's LAW) you will die. *HEBREWS 10:26-31; ROMANS 8:13.
     
    #828 3rdAngel, Apr 17, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2020
  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I believe you are confused here dear friend but here is why I say this in all sincerity. The fruit of our faith is defined in the scriptures in MATTHEW 7:12-27; JAMES 2:18-20; 26 as doing what Gods' Word says and is not separate from the fruit of the Spirit that we receive through faith in God's Word *GALATIANS 5:22; ROMANS 10:17.

    The scriptures provided below show the fruit of faith is obedience to what God's Word says....

    MATTHEW 7:16-27 [16], YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [17], EVEN SO EVERY GOOD TREE BRINGS FORTH GOOD FRUIT; BUT A CORRUPT TREE BRINGS FORTH EVIL FRUIT. [18], A GOOD TREE CANNOT BRING FORTH EVIL FRUIT, NEITHER CAN A CORRUPT TREE BRING FORTH GOOD FRUIT. [19], Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [20], Why by their fruits you shall know them. [21], Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT HE THAT DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. [22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? [23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: DEPART FROM ME YOU WHO WORK SIN. [24], THEREFORE WHOEVER HEARS THESE SAYINGS OF MINE, AND DOES THEM, I WILL LIKEN HIM TO A WISE MAN, WHICH BUILT HIS HOUSE ON A ROCK: [25], And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell not: for it was founded on a rock. [26], AND EVERY ONE THAT HEARS THESE SAYINGS OF MINE, AND DOES THEM NOT, shall be likened to a foolish man, which built his house on the sand:
    [27], And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

    James says the same things as JESUS here...

    JAMES 2:18-20; 26 [18], Yes, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: SHOW ME YOUR FAITH WITHOUT YOUR WORKS, AND I WILL SHOW YOU MY FAITH BY MY WORKS. [19], YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ONE GOD; YOU DO WELL: THE DEVILS ALSO BELIEVE, AND TREMBLE. [20], BUT WILL YOU KNOW, O VAIN MAN, THAT FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD?

    [26] FOR AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, SO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO.

    The fruit of the Spirit is not separate from doing what God's Word says as the fruit of God's Spirit is LOVE and love is the fulfilling of God's LAW to all those who walk in God's Spirit *GALATIANS 5:22; HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 8:1-4; ROMANS 3:31; MATTHEW 22:36-40; ROMANS 13:8-10 and JAMES 2:8-12.

    The rest of your post is nonsense and things I have never discussed again or said so do not need to respond to.

    Sorry dear friend I believe it seems that God's Word disagrees with you. Ignoring Gods Word does not make it disappear. Those who ignore God's Word I believe do so I believe do so at their own peril.

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed.
     
    #829 3rdAngel, Apr 17, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2020
  10. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I have carefully linked your posts to my remarks, and in so doing have attempted to do justice to your beliefs.

    If you cannot accept that this is an honest assessment of your beliefs, then we must turn to your practice and start from there!

    Do you, or do you not, keep a Friday/Saturday sabbath, believing your practice to be an obedient observation of God's law?

    Do you, or do you not, keep the Friday/Saturday sabbath because you believe it to be an eternal law, like the other nine Commandments?
     
  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense, as shown earlier in your refernce to one of my posts you were claiming things I never said anywhere. How is that being honest? Here in this post you simply ignore two very detailed scripture responses to you showing why your claims are not true and simply ignore my posts and the scriptures shared with you that show why I believe you are in error and hand waive them away as if I they do not exist.

    Sorry dear friend but let's continue our dicussion after you address in detail my last two posts to you. If I spent the time helping you with a detailed response to your claims and posts at least you can spend some time reading them and showing why you agree or disagree.

    All your doing here. as with most of the posts and scriptures shared with you is ignoring them. Until you want to discuss the detail in my posts as I do with your posts my friend I think we will have to agree to disagree.

    BTW NO! I obey God because I believe God's Word and see God's love for me in coming to this world to die for my sins and by his own blood offers me forgiveness for my sins. I obey God's Word now because I am free to walk in His Spirit because I have already been forgiven. Now I love God and walk in His Word. Do you love God dear Redemptionsong?
     
    #831 3rdAngel, Apr 18, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Which question would you like me to answer first? When I have done with answering your question, you can answer mine. How about that?
     
  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your question was answered in the previous post you were quoting from. How about you answer my questions and posts and scriptures you simply ignored and address post # 828 linked and post # 829 linked and answer my questions asked of you?

    How can you have the Spirit of the law if you first do not have the letter of the law which tells you what the law is as it is written again "Faith come by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" ROMANS 10:17 now you would agree that we are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH and not of ourselves and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9 right?

    Are you ready please pay attention dear friend?

    Please look at your argument. How can you have faith which is a requirement for salvation *EPHESIANS 2:8-9; JOHN 3:16-19 and recieving God's Spirit *EPHESIANS 1:13 when you do not have the letter of the Word that brings faith and this same faith in God's Word brings God's Spirit?
     
  14. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I am a Gentile believer, so I was never under the whole law of God, the covenant made with Moses and Israel.

    I recognize that Jesus Christ WAS under the whole law, and that he FULFILLED the whole law. He did not abolish it; He fulfilled it by keeping it all, perfectly.

    My faith is not in the law, but in Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the law. His righteousness is His Spirit, which I received through the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    I now follow the Holy Spirit, not the covenant made with Moses.

    Does that answer your question?
     
  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    There you go simply ignoring my posts, scriptures and questions to you again. No it does not answer my questions. Please read the questions carefully. I can see your kind of stuck aren't you dear friend and your not able to address my posts and the scriptures and questions shared with you. I also believe you can see this. I pray you can consider these posts a blessing to you because if you are honest with yourself you will see I am only telling you the truth and pointing to God's Word where JESUS is. Will you hear his voice and do you love JESUS dear friend? In the new covenant there are no JEWS and GENTILES we are all one in Christ, but you cannot see this can you. Have another try...

    .................

    1. How can you have the Spirit of the law if you first do not have the letter of the law which tells you what the law is as it is written again "Faith come by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" ROMANS 10:17 now you would agree that we are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH and not of ourselves and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9 right?

    Are you ready please pay attention dear friend.....

    2. Please look at your argument. How can you have faith which is a requirement for salvation *EPHESIANS 2:8-9; JOHN 3:16-19 and recieving God's Spirit *EPHESIANS 1:13 when you do not have the letter of the Word that brings faith and this same faith in God's Word brings God's Spirit when faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God?

    No Word = No faith = No Spirit.

    These questions are attached to scripture. I asked them because I believe your understanding of the scriptures contradicts the scriptures shared with you in these questions. This was done on purpose to help you to see why your argument is in error. What will you do dear friend receive loving correction and instruction in righteousness from God's Word or turn away from God's Word which could be a blessing to you?

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.
     
    #835 3rdAngel, Apr 18, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020
  16. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I have answered your question directly.

    I follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This cannot be done without faith in Jesus Christ.

    Now, you answer my question.

    Do you, or do you not, keep the Friday/Saturday sabbath because you believe it to be an eternal law, like the other nine Commandments?
     
  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Anyone visiting 787 will see this extract of yours;

    '(2) If Gods Word says that God's 10 Commandments were the work of God and the writing of the tables of stone with the writing of God alone *EXODUS 32:16 and whatsoever God does is FOREVER *ECCLESIASTES 3:14, God's Word means exactly what He says; God's 10 commandments are FOREVER.'


    You state, without any ambiguity, that God's 10 Commandments are FOREVER. But somehow you think that God's 10 Commandments are not the covenant made at Horeb!

    Let's now read Exodus 34:28.

    'And he [Moses] was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.'

    Are the 'words of the covenant' made at Horeb not also called 'the ten commandments'? [Yes!]

    Now read Galatians 3:17.
    'And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
    For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.'

    If you read this carefully, you will see that the 'the covenant', 'the law' [the ten commandments], was not given until AFTER the promise to Abram.

    How can the 10 Commandments be ETERNAL if they were given at Horeb and were fulfilled in Christ? As Paul says, the law was added 'because of transgressions'.

    How can Abraham have followed the 10 Commandments if the covenant was not made until four hundred and thirty years AFTER the promise?
     
    #837 Redemptionsong, Apr 18, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020
  18. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Actually no you didn't and you also ignored post # 828 linked and post # 829 linked with all the scriptures in them that show why your claims are in error. I was hoping by you at least trying to answer these questions it would help you to understand why what you were claiming is not true. Anyhow let me answer these questions for you to show you why your claims cannot be true.

    "1. How can you have the Spirit of the law if you first do not have the letter of the law which tells you what the law is as it is written again "Faith come by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" ROMANS 10:17 now you would agree that we are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH and not of ourselves and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9 right?

    Are you ready please pay attention dear friend.....

    2. Please look at your argument. How can you have faith which is a requirement for salvation *EPHESIANS 2:8-9; JOHN 3:16-19 and recieving God's Spirit *EPHESIANS 1:13 when you do not have the letter of the Word that brings faith and this same faith in God's Word brings God's Spirit when faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God? "

    The above questions are based on the scriptures showing that our Salvation is by God's Grace THROUGH FAITH *EPHESIANS 2:8-9; JOHN 3:16-19 in Gods Word (THE LETTER) and that FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEAING BY THE WORD OF GOD *ROMANS 10:17. If there is NO WORD OF GOD (LETTER) there is NO FAITH *ROMANS 10:17 and if there is NO FAITH in Gods Word there can be NO SPIRIT *EPHESIANS 1:17. This is the same as saying without the letter of the law (Word of God) there can be no SPIRIT OF THE LAW. As God's SPIRIT is the SPIRIT of the WORD OF GOD.... Therefore the letter must always come before faith and faith before God's Spirit. This is the Gospel of our Lord JESUS Christ.


    JOHN 6:63 IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT QUICKENS THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU THEY ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE.

    In order to walk in God's Spirit and the Spirit of the law we must first have faith in God's Word. If you do not have God's Word you cannot have faith so before the Spirit comes we must know the letter in order to have Faith. It is faith in the letter (God's Word) that leads to God's Spirit *EPHESIANS 1:17; GALATIANS 3:22-25.

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed, ignoring it does not make it disappear.
     
    #838 3rdAngel, Apr 18, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020
  19. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    As you say let's be honest dear friend. You posted this claiming I said...
    I have never said such things. I simply said that God's 10 commandments are eternal and everlasting. Why I pulled you up on this is because God's 10 commandments are only a part of the covenant made at Horeb so your statement is false and misleading and not what I believe or is it biblical. Here is why. There are two parts to the old covenant. God's LAW (10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20 and the "SHADOW laws" from the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7; HEBREWS 10:1-12. God's LAW (10 commandments) that were written on the two tables of stone with God's own finger *EXODUS 32:16 which were the work of God alone and spoken directly by God to his poeple *EXODUS 20:1-17. While the Mosaic BOOK of the law was the work of MOSES directed by God, written in a book and spoken by MOSES *DEUTERONOMY 31:24; EXODUS 24:4-7.

    It is the scriptures alone that teach God's LAW (10 commandments) are forever not me. They are the work of God alone and the spoken Word of God alone and the scriptures teach...

    WAS THE 10 COMMANDMENTS THE WORK OF GOD AND THE WRITTING OF GOD ALONE?

    EXODUS 32:16, And THE TABLES WHERE WORK OF GOD, AND THE WRITING WAS THE WRITING OF GOD. GRAVEN ON THE TABLES.

    Yep... So if GOD MADE THE 10 COMMANDMENTS and they are the work of GOD are they forever?

    ECCLESIASTES 3:14 [14], I KNOW WHATSOEVER GOD DOES IS SHALL BE FOREVER; nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God does it, that men should fear before him.

    Are the 10 COMMANDMENTS the work of God and did God make them? Yep, so if God made them are they FOREVER according to the scriptures? You have a problem here don't you dear friend. You say no you do not believe the scriptures if you say yes why do you not obey God's 4th commandment.

    DID GOD SPEAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS?


    EXODUS 20:1-17 [1], And GOD SPOKE ALL THESE WORDS SAYING...

    DID GOD'S 10 COMMANDMENTS COME OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD? - Yep sure did.

    MATTHEW 4:4 MAN DOES NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD

    All the scriptures provided dear friend I believe show that you do not understand what the old covenant is. If you do not understand what the old covenant is how can you understande what the new covenant is that the old points to?

    God's LAW (10 commandments) which includes God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath has the same role it always has and that is to give us the knowledge of good and evil; Sin and Righteousness as shown in these new covenant scriptures *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and if we knowingly break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin. Those who practice known unrepentant sin will not enter into the kingdom of heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and do dispite to the Spirit of God. *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-31.

    If you are honest of heart dear friend be like the faithful Bareans and see if these things be so. Don't follow man made teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. JESUS warns us that this will only lead you away from God and his salvation *MATTHEW 15:3-9; JOHN 4:23-24.; REVELATION 18:1-5. We all need to be careful what we choose. God's Word I believe can be a blessing to those who receive it and a curse to those who do not.

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.
     
    #839 3rdAngel, Apr 18, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020
  20. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Again, I have the words of Martin Luther ringing in my ears.
    'The false apostles taught this doctrine: Except thou live to the law, thou art dead to God; but Paul saith quite contrary:
    Except thou be dead to the law, thou canst not live to God....to live to the law is, in truth, nothing else than to die to God; and to die to the law is nothing else than to live to God.'

    Untangling the truth from your posts is always a laborious job, because you mix the truth of the scriptures with the error of your interpretation.

    In the post above, you claim that the Ten Commandments are separate from the rest of the covenant made at Horeb.
    These are your words,
    'There are two parts to the old covenant. God's LAW (10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20 and the "SHADOW laws" from the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7; HEBREWS 10:1-12.'

    You make this judgment, or separation, based on reading that the 10 Commandments were written with God's finger and placed inside the Ark of the covenant, whilst the book of the covenant was placed beside the Ark. From this, you infer that the words on the tables are FOREVER, whilst the words in the book of the covenant are SHADOW laws. This is a false separation.

    Galatians 3:17 states that the law was not given until AFTER the promise to Abraham. This means that the covenant, all of the covenant, did not come into existence until the events at Horeb.

    Galatians 3:19 states that the law was 'added because of transgressions'. Since the law is defined by Paul as the 'covenant' and includes the Ten Commandments, the Ten Commandments must also have been added because of transgressions. This means that the Ten Commandments are NOT FOREVER. This means that the law is not an 'everlasting covenant'.

    When I look at the references you provide as evidence of this separation of the covenant into ETERNAL and TEMPORAL, it quickly becomes apparent that the scriptures you provide do not support your theory. Ecclesiastes 3:14, for example, does not teach that the law lasts forever.

    In response to Post 838, I would highlight this statement of yours.

    'If there is NO WORD OF GOD (LETTER) there is NO FAITH *ROMANS 10:17 and if there is NO FAITH in Gods Word there can be NO SPIRIT*EPHESIANS 1:17. This is the same as saying without the letter of the law (Word of God) there can be no SPIRIT OF THE LAW. As God's SPIRIT is the SPIRIT of the WORD OF GOD.... Therefore the letter must always come before faith and faith before God's Spirit. This is the Gospel of our Lord JESUS Christ.'
    It's amazing to read these scriptural references and then to see that you have made a fundamental error of interpretation.

    Faith in God's Word does not equate with faith in the 'letter'. Revelation 19:13 says, 'and his name is called The Word of God.' This refers to Christ, the living Word, the Spirit!

    The problem with saying that
    'the letter must always come before faith' is that this CONTRADICTS scripture. The 'letter' was added because of transgressions, and is a covenant of law. Abraham did not have the letter of the law! Accordingly, based on your conditions, Abraham could not have walked by faith in God's word. Yet, scripture tells us that he heard the voice of God and was faithful, and his faithfulness was counted as righteousness.
     
    #840 Redemptionsong, Apr 19, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
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