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Featured The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 15, 2019.

  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Hi TB nice to see you again. I believe it says no where in the scriptures, that God does not want his people to keep his commandments. The scriptures teach the opposite *JOHN 14:15; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:1-4; HEBREWS 10:26-39; HEBREWS 8:10; 1 JOHN 3:4-9; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14, so your question is a mute point as it is not based on the scriptures. The reason why God swore that those people in the wilderness would not enter into His Sabbath rest was because they did not believe and follow God's Word and practiced sin (breaking his law). This is shown directly in the scriptures word for word provided to you earlier in *HEBREWS 3:11-13; HEBREWS 3:19; HEBREWS 4:1-2.

    Hope this helps
     
    #781 3rdAngel, Apr 6, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  2. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    This discussion is very relevant to the OP because the Gospel of grace as preached by Paul does not require the spiritual body of Christ to follow the weekly Jewish sabbath!

    Galatians 2:11-16 is Paul's rebuke of Peter, and Galatians 2:17-21 is about free justification. In verse 19, Paul is not talking about the ceremonial law, but the law in general. The law in general includes the Ten Commandments.

    You say that the Ten Commandments are God's eternal law, but there is nothing eternal about the seventh day of man's week! The only eternal feature of the weekly sabbath is the rest that we find IN CHRIST.
     
  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I believe nothing you have posted here addresses anything in the posts with the scriptures you have been quoting from dear friend. When you have been found to be in error through the scriptures in one post then you change the subject and move to another claim without addressing any of the posts and scriptures shared with you here that I believe show why your claims are not biblical. Then you seek to make arguments and claims that no one is making and believes (strawman).

    Nonsense, the wole chapter is about "CIRCUMCISION" and trying to be justified by keeping the law. No one is telling you that you must be "CIRCUMCISED" to be saved (this is the same issue as ACTS 15 btw) and no one has told you that our justification and salvation is through keeping the law therefore nothing you have posted here is relevant to our conversation is it? This is a good example of what the previous post to you is talking about and you making strawman arguments no one is talking about or believes.

    Not really dear friend. Let me ask you are few questions....

    1. Was God's 10 Commandments spoken by God directly to His people *EXODUS 20:1-17? If so what does MATTHEW 4:4 mean in your view?

    2. Was God's 10 Commandments the work of God and written with God's own finger on two tables of stone *EXODUS 32:16? If so what ECCLESIASTES 3:14 mean?

    What about God's Sabbath in the new Heavens and a new Earth?

    ISAIAH 66:22 [22]FOR AS THE NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH, WHICH I WILL MAKE, SHALL REMAIN BEFORE ME, SAID THE LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23], AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS, THAT FROM ONE NEW MOON TO ANOTHER, AND FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, SHALL ALL FLESH COME TO WORSHIP BEFORE ME, SAID THE LORD.

    ECCLESIASTES 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: for this is the whole duty of man.'

    REVELATION 12:17 [17], And the DRAGON (Satan) WAS WROTH WITH THE WOMAN (church), and WENT TO MAKE WAR WITH THE REMNANT OF HER SEED, WHICH KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    REVELATION 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, and the faith of Jesus.

    I am sorry dear friend, it seems God's Word disagrees with you.

    May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.

    REVELATION 22:14 BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE.
     
  4. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Circumcision was given to Abraham, whose name means father of peoples/nations. That included his slaves. Israel just represented part of Abraham's descendants As far as the "shepherd" ("Favor") who was used to "break my covenant" (Zech 11:10), Paul, he was "annihilated along with two other shepherds, Peter (Zech 11:16-17) and Judas Iscariot (Zechariah 11:12-13). Every spiritual event has a parallel physical event. The circumcision of the house of Judah and the house of Israel, whereas they receive a heart of flesh, and everyone knows the LORD, has not happened (Jer 31:31-34).
     
  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Allow me to address your questions first.

    1. Was God's 10 Commandments spoken by God directly to His people *EXODUS 20:1-17? If so what does MATTHEW 4:4 mean in your view?

    Yes, God's Ten Commandments were addressed to Moses [Exodus 20:22] and to the children of Israel [Deuteronomy 4:36].

    Matthew 4:4 is a direct reference to Deuteronomy 8:3, which says, 'And he [God] humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.'

    Every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God (which refers to all scripture) is 'profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.' [2 Timothy 3:16,17]

    I believe this answers the first question.

    2. Was God's 10 Commandments the work of God and written with God's own finger on two tables of stone *EXODUS 32:16? If so what ECCLESIASTES 3:14 mean?

    The Ten Commandments are the words of the covenant that God inscribed on two stone tables. These two stone tables summarized the whole law, and represent the binding agreement made by the two parties (God on the one hand, and the children of Israel on the other). As I understand it, both stones contained the same commandments, because both were written front and back.

    Ecclesiastes 3:14, says 'I know that whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.'

    Chapter 3 begins with the words, 'To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:' so we can interpret verse 14 in the light of these words. God is SPIRIT, and spiritual things are for ever. The things of the earth are set in time, temporal and tending to corruption.

    Now, this leads back to the question you pose, the purpose of which is to demonstrate that the Ten Commandments are eternal. My answer to this is that the Ten Commandments are both SPIRITUAL and TEMPORAL. The spiritual aspects of the Ten Commandments have to be distinguished from the temporal.

    Jesus taught the spiritual (loving) aspect of the Ten Commandments in Matthew 5:17-48. He begins by saying that 'Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled....For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.' Jesus then tells his hearers that the law is not just the OUTER DOING but the INNER spiritual dimension of the law, too.

    'You have heard that it was said' THOU SHALT NOT KILL 'But I say unto you' 'whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.'

    'You have heard that it was said' THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY 'But I say unto you' 'That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.'

    'You have heard that it was said' THOU SHALT NOT FORSWEAR THYSELF, BUT SHALT PERFORM UNTO THE LORD THINE OATHS' 'But I say unto you' 'Swear not at all'

    'You have heard that it was said', 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH' 'But I say unto you' 'That ye resist not evil:'

    'You have heard that it was said' 'THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR, AND HATE THINE ENEMY' 'But I say unto you' 'Love your enemies, bless them that curse you .....'

    The message is clear. To fulfil the SPIRIT of the law you have to do more that fulfil the outer letter of the law. To do this, you must have a righteousness that is OF GOD. This righteousness is not OUR righteousness!

    Romans 5:18.'..by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.'

    ALL the law can be summarized as OUR righteousness. To stop being righteous by our own efforts we must be 'dead to the law'.

    Galatians 2:21. 'I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, Christ is dead in vain.'

    [Where it says in Revelation that we are to keep God's commandments, we should read this to mean the SPIRIT, which is greater than the LETTER.]

    The problem with your position is the emphasis that you place on God commanding us to follow the sabbath as a 'holy day', where no work is done. This demands a definition of work, and a punishment for non compliance. This is clearly 'the letter of the law'.
    If you are truly 'dead to the law', then receiving Christ as your new husband does not mean a continued attachment to the old husband. The new commandments given by your new husband are all commandments to love. This love is HIS love.

    It is in this spirit of love that Paul accepts some difference between individual conscience.

    'One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be persuaded in his own mind.
    He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.' [Romans 14:5,6]
     
    #785 Redemptionsong, Apr 8, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
  6. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    The purpose of the question was to show you how it can't be as you say. Because of course God wants his people to keep his commands. When he swore to them in his wrath they couldn't enter his rest, it was a punishment. - Not him saying he wouldn't allow them to keep the 4th commandment anymore.

    What about the verses saying the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Messiah, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Galatians 3:24-25
    Do you not consider the ten commandments to be part of the law?

    Of course anything still prohibited in the new covenant we still can't do. And if we love as we should, we won't kill, steal, etc.
     
  7. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Ok thanks for sharing your view you. Let me share with you now why I asked this question. In your previous post you were claiming that God's 10 commandments are not eternal. I asked you the above question and provided the scriptures to show the links between the scriptures to help prove that God's law is eternal. For example the question was asked and the scriptures were added...

    1. Was God's 10 Commandments spoken by God directly to His people *EXODUS 20:1-17? If so what does MATTHEW 4:4 mean in your view?

    to show that (a), God's 10 Commandments were directly spoken to His people by God alone after he had made them. Not only did God write the 10 commandments on two tables of stone but he (b), spoke the 10 commandments as said word for word in EXODUS 20:1 [1], And GOD SPOKE ALL THESE WORDS, saying... (Thou shalt not lie, steal commit adultery etc). Now if God SPOKE the 10 Commandments and they came directly out of the MOUTH OF GOD and MATTHEW 4:4 says that JESUS says MAN DOES NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD (quoting DEUTERONOMY 8:3). Why would you choose to think we are not to live by them when this is directly word for word what the scriptures say (no interpretation needed)? I believe your claims here are making JESUS a liar.
    Interesting, so God's Word says that the 10 Commandments are the work of God alone written with Gods' own finger here...

    EXODUS 32:16, And the tables were the WORK OF GOD, AND THE WRITING WAS THE WRITING OF GOD. GRAVEN ON THE TABLES.

    and ECCLESIASTES 3:14 says [14], I KNOW WHATSOEVER GOD DOES IS SHALL BE FOREVER; nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God does it, that men should fear before him.

    You say no I do not believe this, God's 10 commandments are tempory.

    Did God make the 10 commandments? Yep. Was it the work of God? Yep *EXODUS 32:16. The scripture says in ECCLESIASTES 3:14 I KNOW WHATSOEVER GOD DOES IS SHALL BE FOREVER, but you so NO! "My answer to this is that the Ten Commandments are both SPIRITUAL and TEMPORAL."

    Aren't we better off believing what God's Word says? I do not know about you but to me....

    (1). If God's Word says that God spoke the 10 commandments *EXODUS 20:1 and we are to live by every word that proceeds out of God's mouth *MATTHEW 4:4; DEUTERONOMY 8:3 then God wants us to live by every word of God's 10 commandments as they came directly out of the mouth of God (no middle man here)

    and...

    (2) If Gods Word says that God's 10 Commandments were the work of God and the writing of the tables of stone with the writing of God alone *EXODUS 32:16 and whatsoever God does is FOREVER *ECCLESIASTES 3:14, God's Word means exactly what He says; God's 10 commandments are FOREVER.

    I believe your simply denying what the scriptures say here word for word and I it is hard for me to believe you do not know this but simply choosing to close your eyes to what God Word says. I believe all you have managed to do here and you have rightly said is, you have addressed my questions (talked about them) to you without answering the questions shared with you that could have been a blessing to you.

    Ok dear friend I believe the rest of your post here is simply repitition on your behalf that has already been addressed in detail through out this thread showing why your application of the scriptures are in error or strawman arguments no one has said or is making to you so I do not feel the need to repeat myself to you. If you disagree and would like me to address anything specific please let me know. As shown here I believe your simply denying God's Word with yours so we will have to agree to disagree.

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear. It will be our judge come judgement day. There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are not commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. This is a man made teaching and tradition that has led many to break God's 4th commandment *EXODUS 20:8-11 which according to the new covenant scriptures is one of God's 10 commandments *EXODUS 20:1-17 that gives us the knowledge of sin when broken *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7. According to the scriptures if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin (breaking his law) *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4.

    I believe according to the scriptures all those who choose to continue in known unrepentant sin when they have been given a knowledge of the truth will not enter the kingdom of Heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23 and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and do dispite to the Spirit of grace.

    HEBREWS 10:26-31
    [26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
    [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
    [28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    [29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
    [30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    [31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

    You may be wondering why I have been spending so much time trying to help you? It is because I care about you. God has given me a duty of love and he loves you and is not willing that any should perish but that everyone should come to a knowledge of His Word and be saved. Only you can choose to believe Gods Word when he calls you though. What will you choose? Sin will keep all those who knowingly practice it out of God's Kingdom.

    We are told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling as it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. I believe If we ignore God's Word we do so at our own peril.

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed.
     
    #787 3rdAngel, Apr 8, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry TB but I believe your previous post and question demonstrates no such thing. Your post is a little confusing here. What is it that you claim "cannot be as you say"? The previous posts and scriptures shared with you prove that God's people did not enter into God's seventh day Sabbath rest because they did not believe and follow God's Word choosing instead to sin (break Gods Law) *1 JOHN 3:4. You say here that "of course God wants his people to keep his commands" yet God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath was what the children in the wilderness were breaking and why they did not enter into God's rest. Hebrews 4:9 then says it remain for the people of God to keep the Sabbath. This is God's Word not mine.

    I believe according to the scriptures that God's people in the wilderness did not enter into God's rest which is defined as the seventh day Sabbath * HEBREWS 4:1-5 because of SIN AND UNBELIEF *HEBREWS 3:11-13; HEBREWS 3:19; HEBREWS 4:1-2. This is the context of HEBREWS 4 (there are no chapters in the Hebrew or Greek manuscripts). Sin and Unbelief being the problem of the children in the wilderness was also shown through EZEKIEL 20:10-13. Sin (breaking God's LAW) and unbelief (not believing God's Word) was the reason we do not enter into Gods' rest.

    If we break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. This includes God's 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7.

    There is no scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th Commandment has been abolished and we are not commanded to keep Sunday (or the first day of the week) as a Holy day. This is a teaching and tradition of men that JESUS warns us about *MATTHEW 15:2-9. BABYLON the great mother of harlots has fallan. Come out of her my poeple. Who will hear the call to go out and meet the bridegroom?

    God's Sheep hear His Voice and follow him. Those who do not hear do not follow because they are not his Sheep.
     
    #788 3rdAngel, Apr 8, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    What you refuse to acknowledge, 3rdAngel, is that you are still living under the law.

    The apostle to the Gentiles is Paul, and his preaching should be of special interest to any Gentile who genuinely seeks salvation.

    The gospel that Paul preaches is a gospel of grace. As he says, 'Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
    For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
    Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.'

    Galatians 3:16 -19. 'Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He said not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
    And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
    For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
    Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.'

    If you read this passage carefully you will see that the promise made to Abraham was the promise of the Holy Spirit through faith. The law was added because of transgressions 'till the seed should come'. So when Christ delivers the promise, a better covenant is available. We have a new husband.

    The covenant of law [See Exodus 34:28; Deut.4:13; Deut.10:4], the Ten Commandments, did not come until four hundred and thirty years after the promise was made to Abraham. This is a direct contradiction to your claims, because you have consistently stated that the law was in force from Adam onwards. You have said that Abraham kept the sabbath, and that he followed covenant teaching on burnt offerings. Galatians 3:17 proves those claims to be erroneous.

    Once again, your theology is brought into question, for who can be a follower of the Holy Spirit if he is still under the law?

    'But now, after that ye have known God, or rather been known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
    Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
    I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.' [Galatians 4:9-11]
     
  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not really. I believe you are the one who is confused dear friend as demonstrated through the sciptures shared with you. As posted earlier what you refuse to acknowledge are the scriptures that disagree with your claims that God's 10 commandments are abolished. I believe your view here is not biblical.

    According to the scriptures, no one is "under the law" if they have by faith repented from their sins and received God's forgiveness through faith. God's forgiveness is conditional on believing God's Word *ROMANS 14:23, repentance of sin *PROVERBS 28:13; ACTS 3:19 and by faith believing God's promise of forgiveness *1 JOHN 1:9; JOHN 3:16-21 as it is written in PROVERBS 28:9 [13], He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy.

    Sin is defined as the transgression of Gods law * 1 JOHN 3:4 and if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand "under the law" guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. God's 4th commandment *EXODUS 20:8-11 is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7 and just like every other commandment if we knowingly break it we stand guilty before God of sin *ROMANS 3:19.

    According to the scriptures you are confued in your interpretation and what it means to be "under the law" as no one is "under the law" unless they stand guilty before God of breaking the law which I believe is what you are promoting by trying to abolish God's law which is to be written in the heart by love *HEBREWS 8:10-12. According to the scriptures there is no difference as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. *ROMANS 2:12-13.

    ROMANS 3:19-20 [19], Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are UNDER THE LAW: THAT EVERY MOUTH MAY BE STOPPED, AND ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD. [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

    Then the question always remains when we read the scriptures "Examine yourself to see if you be in the faith or wheather you find yourselves reprobate" *2 CORINTHIANS 13:5, How do we know that we know God? The Word of God is very clear...

    1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[4], HE THAT SAID, I KNOW HIM, AND KEEPS NOT HIS COMMANDMENTS, IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.

    JESUS says you shall know them (who are from God and who are not) by their fruit *MATTHEW 7:16-20. SIN (breaking God's commandments) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil.

    1 JOHN 3:9-10 [9], WHOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remains in him: AND HE CANNOT SIN, BECAUSE HE IS BORN OF GOD. [10], IN THIS THE CHILDREN OF GOD ARE MANIFEST, AND THE CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL: whoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

    If you are teaching others to break God's LAW dear friend what is your fruit?

    According to the scriptures God only gives His Spirit to those who obey him. *ACTS 5:32.

    I am sorry my friend as shown through many posts and the scriptures in them, I believe God's Word disagrees with you and your teaching a different gospel which is not the good news gospel of our Lord JESUS CHRIST. Your teaching one can be saved while continuing in unrepentant sin when it is the Word of God the teaches the wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. *ROMANS 6:23; ROMANS 8:13; ROMANS 6:16; ROMANS 6:21; ROMANS 3:31; HEBREWS 10:26-31.

    Does this not worry you dear friend? It should. I believe the scriptures say it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
     
    #790 3rdAngel, Apr 8, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
  11. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    They clearly were doing something wrong. They had unbelief and sinned. He got angry with them because of that, and swore that they couldn't enter his rest. You are trying to say it means they couldn't enter his 4th commandment. I am saying your position makes no sense. (it can't mean what you are saying)

    Why did you just ignore the questions regarding the schoolmaster? Galatians 3:23-25 (in post #786)
    Those verses show that we aren't under the law. Isn't the 4th commandment a part of the law?
     
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    For those of us who have repented and placed our complete trust in Christ, the law is not abolished but fulfilled. I no longer follow the law for righteousness, but follow Christ, the One who has fulfilled the law in love. I am only able to do this in so far as I walk after HIS Spirit. This is called the law of liberty, or the gospel of grace.

    There is a very obvious contradiction in the belief that says we must follow the letter of the law on the Fourth Commandment, whilst at the same time claiming that we are not 'under the law'.

    This is what it says in Joshua 1:7. 'This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.'

    Those who place themselves under the law are obligated to follow the letter of the law, and to do all the law [James 2:10] . Observing to do the law is the same as 'works of the law', and are acts of man's own righteousness.

    Romans 3:21-23. 'But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;'

    The whole point about repentance is that you change from being self-reliant and self righteous to being God-reliant and reliant on God's righteousness. You turn to Christ in total faith and obedience of heart. This means dying to the law, for under the law you are self righteous.

    Titus 3:4-7. 'But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
    Not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
    Being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.'

    It is going to dawn on you, at some point, 3rdAngel, that repentance is not complete if you are still hanging on to your own righteousness. 'Observing to do the law' is the same as doing your own righteous acts.

    Let Paul have the last word. 'Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
    But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

    Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
    And be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:'

    Amen.
     
    #792 Redemptionsong, Apr 9, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I would say indeed but I believe this single sentence here from your large post is all I need to prove you have not done any such thing and awe both know it. Why do I say this? Please tell me how one has repented from sin when one is breaking any one of Gods 10 commandments, if according to the scriptures sin is the transgression of God's Law *1 JOHN 3:4 and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11? God’s 4th commandment is one of the 10 commandments. If we KNOWINGLY break it just like any of the other commandments we commit sin and sin will keep all those who KNOWINGLY practice it out of God’s KINGDOM *HEBREWS 10:26-27; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; HEBREWS 6:4-8; JAMES 2:10-11; MATTHEW 7:13-27. Dear friend can you see your building your house on sifting sand? I believe your house has fallen over and great was the fall there of.

    The rest of your post is a strawman again as I have never said we are saved by the works of the law and you know it so it is simply a distraction to our discussion that can be safey ignored.

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.
     
  14. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    No dear friend I am not trying to say anything. I have posted the scriptures that show word for word that that the children in the wilderness did not believe Gods' Word and sinned against God in *HEBREWS 3:11-13; HEBREWS 3:19; HEBREWS 4:1-2; EZEKIEL 20:10-13. and also that God's rest is defined as the seventh day Sabbath in HEBREWS 4:1-5; HEBREWS 4:9. What is it you do not understand? Did you read the scriptures provided here?
    I thought I have addressed and responded to all of your posts my friend. Please forgive me if I have missed something here in this thread. Actually I have just addressed this in detail just now in a post from you in another thread here linked which I will repost here for you below.
    Indeed. This is the purpose of God's LAW (10 Commandments) which is to give us the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172 and if we knowingly break any one of them *JAMES 4:17; ACTS 17:30-31 according to the scriptures we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. You do know that God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments right?

    God's law defines what sin is *1 JOHN 3:4 which begin in the heart *MATTHEW 5. According to the scriptures if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand condemned guilty before God "under the law"of breaking the whole law *JAMES 2:10-11; ROMANS 3:19-20. Gods Law is our school master, our teacher that shows us our need of God's salvation. God's LAW shows us that we are all slaves of sin *ROMANS 3:9-18; ROMANS 7:1-24; ISAIAH 1:5-6; JEREMIAH 13:23 and leads us to the foot of the cross so we can call out to God in faith "Have mercy on me God for I am a sinner. It leads us to Christ that we can be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25. It shows us that all we are all sick with sin and in need of a Physician for without many do not know the meaning of the Word of JESUS "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.*MATTHEW 9:12-13.

    It is through God's law giving us a knowledge of our sins *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7 that we see the love of God for us personally that he loved us so much that he sent His only begotten son (symbolic of Abrahams sacrifice of Isaac) into our world, the son of the God of heaven to die the death that we deserve to die on our behalf for our sins that whosoever believes His Words should not perish but have eternal life *JOHN 3:16-21.

    You see Gods' LAW is so essentially a part of the gospel of our LORD JESUS CHRIST that it is through God's LAW that JESUS is revealed to the sinner as our only hope of God's salvation and allows us through faith to walk in God's presence (the Spirit) *ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16

    Very simply....

    1. If there is no law there can be no knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7
    2. If we have no knowledge of what sin is we have no need of a Savior from our sins *MATTHEW 9:12-13
    3. If we have no Savior from our sins we have no salvation because we are still in our sins and the scriptures are fulfilled For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law *ROMANS 2:12

    It is this very letter of the law that leads us to the Spirit of the law written on the heart through faith to love and it is only through love that we can follow him who calls us to love another and love is the fulfilling and establsihing of the law in the heart of those who believe and follow God's Word *HEBREWS 8:10-12; MATTHEW 22:36-40; ROMANS 13:8-10; JAMES 2:8-12.

    Do we make void the law of God through faith? No we establsih the law through faith *ROMANS 3:31
    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit *ROMANS 8:1-4

    Whosoever is BORN of GOD to LOVE in the NEW COVENANT *HEBREWS 8:10-12 does not practice SIN (breaking God's commandments) *1 JOHN 3:9; ROMANS 13:8-10; JAMES 2:8-12; ROMANS 3:31; MATTHEW 22:36-40. This is the GOOD NEWS of the Gospels in the NEW COVENANT e have a SAVIOUR to save us from sin (not in sin) but we have to be made new to walk in God's Spirit *GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 8:1-4.

    This includes Gods' 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath which is one of Gods' 10 commandments *EXODUS 20:8-11 that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7 and as the scriptures teach if we knowingly break anyone of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11 when we have been given a knowledge of the truth *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come *HEBREWS 10:26-26.

    May you receive Gods Word and be blessed.
     
  15. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    You understand sin as the breaking of the law, the Ten Commandments. I see sin as more than that. I see sin as 'what is not of faith' [Romans 14:23], for 'all unrighteousness is sin' [1 John 5:17].

    Well, I repented of my own unrighteousness, and placed my complete faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. He responded by baptizing me with His Holy Spirit. This is His righteousness gifted to me. How can I carry on sinning if I walk by the Spirit of God? I am humbled by His love.

    Never have I felt the need to come under the law of the weekly sabbath. I love the Lord seven days a week and I rest when I am able to take physical rest. I meet with other believers at times that are convenient to all. This is our liberty in Christ.

    The Ten Commandments are described as 'the covenant' [Deut.4:13], and as 'the law' [Galatians 3:16-19]. Those that follow the law are to 'live in them' [Galatians 3:12; Leviticus 18:5]. I am dead to the law; I do not observe the written law. The Holy Spirit is my guide into 'all truth' [John 16:13]

    Does the Holy Spirit guide me to kill? No. Does the Holy Spirit guide me to commit adultery? No. Does the Holy Spirit guide me into anything that is not of God's love? NO!

    Does the Holy Spirit guide me to observe to do the weekly sabbath of the Jews? NO! Nor, in fact, does it obligate me to observe a Sunday sabbath. I am free to assemble with other believers without obligation, or threat of damnation. My faith in Christ fulfils my love of God. My works of faith are all directed at loving my neighbour.

    Why would God condemn me for not following a Jewish sabbath when he says, 'If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.' [1 John 4:12,13]
     
    #795 Redemptionsong, Apr 9, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I believe dear friend, this is where your problem is that you are rufusing to acknowledge. SIN as I have shared with you from the scriptures which is God's Word not mine, is defined as both not believing and following God's Word *ROMANS 14:23 and breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4 because through the law is the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7.

    These are Gods' Word not mine and I believe it seems from our conversation you do not believe all of these scriptures which makes you guilty of not believing Gods' Word *ROMANS 14:23 and breaking Gods' 10 Commandments (4th commandment) *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4.

    According to the scriptures as posted earlier none have Gods Spirit if they are knowingly breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *Acts of the Apostles 5:32. Sin (not believing God's Word and breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:9-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; REVELATION 12:17; REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14.

    There is no such thing as a "JEWISH SABBATH" as there was no "JEWS" no "ISRAEL" when JESUS made the Sabbath for all mankind *GENESIS 2:1-3; MARK 2:27. I believe these scriptures are all God's Word not mine and yet you do not believe them? Does this not concern you dear friend? It should. Please read HEBREWS 10:26-31.
     
    #796 3rdAngel, Apr 9, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I do not sin 'wilfully' because I do follow the letter of the law. I acknowledge sin as unrighteousness, but I do not believe that I am being unrighteous if my days are spent following the Holy Spirit in faith. Sin is a transgression of the law, but Jesus summarized the law as fulfilled in love. All Jesus' commandments are, therefore, commandments to love.

    To say that sin is not following God's word is not helpful. One has to understand what is applicable to Gentile believers in Christ, and what is not. I do not believe that you have kept every jot and tittle of the law! For 'all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God'. If you want to be judged by the law then follow all the law!

    James 2:10,11 is a favourite quotation of yours, but you have failed to understand it in the context of the passage. 'For whosoever shall keep the whole law' is not a person walking by faith! Those who keep 'the whole law' are under law! Once again, this proves that you are not yet dead to the law, though you claim to be!

    To confirm the accuracy of this interpretation, look at James 1:25. There it says, 'But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.'

    James 1:25 is talking about works of faith. If a person continues to walk by faith they are blessed in their works of faith. If you fall short of the standard of faith, the righteousness of Christ, then you fall back onto the law. That's why it says in James 2:8,9, 'If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.' In other words, you only become a sinner under the law if you fail to love your neighbour [by respecting some over others].

    Anyone reading the references you provide to breaking the commandments will quickly realize that they are not references to the law, the Ten Commandments, but to Jesus' commandments to LOVE! [Check out 1 JOHN 3:9-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4;]
     
  18. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    God is our judge we are to judge no man. We are told judge not according to the outward appearance, but judge righteous judgment *JOHN 7:24. There is none of us righteous in God's eyes not one *ROMANS 3:10. Only God is righteous *2 THESSALONIANS 1:5-6. We can only make righteous judgements according to God's Word who's word alone is righteous as it is the Word of God alone that we reject or accept that will be our judge come judgement day *JOHN 12:46-47.

    I believe dear friend that you reject his Word because you have heard Gods' Word which are Gods' Word not my words and deny God's Word with your words. They are God's Word not my words but you do not believe them and choose to close your eye and ears to hearing his Word when God is calling you to him in love to love. I believe you will not hear his Word because you choose to follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God that JESUS warns us about in MATTHEW 15:2-9

    Everything in your post here has been addressed in detail already through the scriptures but instead of receiving God's correction through his Word you choose instead to deny His Words with your words and ignore God's Word that you may follow your own words which are not God's Word. Your repeating the same old things without addressing anything in the posts and scriptures shared with you that show why you are in error. Now you are free to believe as you wish my friend so we will have to agree now to disagree as I see there is nothing that can be shared with you to help you to see the path you are treading unless you choose to open your eyes and ears that you close.

    I believe you choose not to believe Gods' Word when it could be a blessing to you. According to the scriptures if any of us choose to continue in sin these very words will be a curse to us because we choose to close your eyes and ears and not hear the warning from God's Word about those who turn away from Gods' Word *HEBREWS 10:26-39; ISAIAH 6:9-10; ISAIAH 30:9 in order to follow a life of sin.

    To these, I believe God will leave these people in the strong delustions to believe their lies *2 THESSALONIANS 2:10-12 They become wolves in sheeps clothing *MATTHEW 7:15 lying and spreading lies *1 JOHN 2:3-4 and the enemy of our Lord having a form of Godliness and denying God's power and gospel of salvation * 2 TIMOTHY 3:1-5. There eyes have God closed and ears which no longer hear the Word of God and the words are fulfilled, in their ears "your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear". *ISAIAH 59:2.

    If our eyes are not open we cannot see the Garden of Eden or the paradise of God. Sin closes our eyes and makes us blind but seeking Jesus can open the blind eyes to see and the deaf to hear. It is given to the blind to have eyes to see and ears to hear and the lame to walk while those saying they see do not see. Those saying they hear do not hear and those saying they walk do not walk. This is because spiritual things are spiritually discerned. They that be whole do not need the physician but those that are sick seek him. Many do not know the meaning.

    Who can know the mind of God? As the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways from your ways and so are my thoughts from your thoughts. But the Spirit of truth is given only to those that are poor. He is the teacher of all the poor in spirit, he knows them all by name because he reads the intent of the heart that is sick. Who can look into the mirror that God gives to see who they are? These are those the look into the mirror and see God. The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God neither can he know them because in his mind they are foolishness. Now you say you see therefore your sin remains.

    Come let us reason together; Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: If any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Call upon me while I am near, tomorrow may be too late and why will you die when by my stripes you may be healed. With an everlasting love have I loved you and with loving kindness have I drawn you therefore why will you turn from me? It is hard to kick against the pricks.

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed, ignoring it does not make it disappear when the very Word of God we accept or reject becomes our judge come judgement day *JOHN 12:47-48
     
    #798 3rdAngel, Apr 10, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  19. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Here is a brief summary of the teaching of Paul.

    The Ten Commandments are LAW.

    The Law came AFTER the promise to Abraham. [Galatians 3:17]

    The Law was added because of transgressions 'till the seed should come'. [Galatians 3:19; Romans 10:4]

    After that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [Galatians 3:24,25; Romans 7:2]

    Where no law is, there is no transgression [Romans 4:15]

    For it is of faith, that it might be by grace. [Romans 4:16]

    'Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
    For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
    For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.' [Galatians 5:4-6]

    'But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.' [Galatians 5:18]
     
    #799 Redemptionsong, Apr 10, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  20. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Here is a brief summary of why I believe your intepretation of Paul is in error....

    *Circumcision is not one of God's 10 commandments. It is a law in ordinances and a shadow law that points to a new heart by faith [Romans 2:28-29]

    *The purpose of God's law is to simply give us a knowledge of sin to lead us to the cross that we might be forgiven through faith [Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; Galatians 3:22-25]

    *Faith does not do away with God's law it establishes Gods' law in the life of those who have faith [Romans 3:31; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 6:1-23; Hebrews 8:10]

    *According to God's new covenant promise to write his laws in our heart to love we obey God's law [Romans 13:8-10; Romans 3:31]

    *God's 4th comnandment of God's 10 commandments is one of those laws that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken [Romans 7:7]

    *If we continue in sin we will die because we reject the gift of God's dear son [Romans 6:23; Romans 8:13; Romans 6:16; Romans 6:21]

    *If we reject God's word and continue in known unrepentant sin (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) we will not enter God's kingdom [Hebrews 10:26-31]

    *No one is led by God's Spirit if they are knowingly breaking any one of God's commandments [Acts of the Apostles 5:32; Hebrews 10:26-27]

    ................

    Once again why make false strawman claims no one is claiming? No one is telling you to get your righteousness from the law. Obedience to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW what Gods Word says. Doing what God's Word says is the FRUIT of faith that works by a new heart that LOVES given in the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12.

    Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. This is God's work in us * PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. We are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works least any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9.

    Faith that works by love does not abolish God's law it establishes it *Romans 3:31.

    What is your fruit dear friend if your breaking God's commandments *1 John 3:4 and your duty of love to God *Exodus 20:8-11 and rejecting his Word *Romans 14:23 that has only been sent in love as a help to you to know the way when the road is dark and narrow? It seems many are called but only a few will be chosen.

    Ignoring Gods' Word does not make it disappear it will become our judge come judgement day *JOHN 12:47-48
     
    #800 3rdAngel, Apr 10, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
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