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The Law of Cause and Effect: True / False / Maybe

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
If you go with gnome, one of these should work from terminal:
sudo apt-get install abiword, or
sudo apt-get install abiword-gnome
I will try. It is cinnamon at present. Not fully gnome, I think.

Ajita Kesakambali, perhaps a charvaka. The full philosophy forgotten, but what remains is interesting and hilarious. What Hindus and Buddhists mention in their books points to some sort of Nihilism. Most famous verse ascribed to Charvaks:
"Yaavat jivet sukham jivet, rinam kritvaa ghritam pibet l
bhasmibhootasya dehasya, punaraagamanam kutah ll
(When you live, live happily, take a loan to live well (drink clarified butter);
(because) once the body is cremated, where is coming back?)
Charvaka - Wikipedia
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I'd say eternal existence is more a void (no time) without beginning or end rather than a "thing" or noun that extends forever. Space (the "negative") would be a good example. So, I would assume non-existence and existence-those two words-would be useless once one gets there's no "thing" to measure to know its existence (whether eternal or not) to begin with.
Hmm. I actually re-read your link after posting above. Is this conclusion similar to what I just mentioned?
I know you're more scientific minded (from what I gather) so I can't relate with what you said. Don't quote me with the terminology. If all is void, there is no question of where and why (no questions at all). No "thing" to get, really. Total reality (not a replacement or metaphor for X) without our needing to define and analyze it. Maybe its best called Act or Practice are better terms to use?
My guess is that there may be an end to existence. Of course, nothing like that is suggested by science at the moment other than 'Zero-point Energy'. But who knows what science will find in future? We balk at the idea of non-existence just as we balked at relativity and Quantum Mechanics at one time. But this is a human perspective. 'What exists' may not be bound by such things. So, existence could have potentiality for non-existence and non-existence could have potentiality for existence.
Well, RigVeda points to it in the 'creation hymn'.
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation.
The Buddhist concept of "mutual arising" provides an alternative notion to cause and effect. It's been awhile since I read up on it. I'd have to dig out some books to go into any detail, though.
True but Buddha was against nihilism. He said contemplating on these things is useless, does not make your life any better.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I knew what you meant, Rabbi....
You know but I do not know. It is a forum rule that if you give something in a language other than English, you have to provide the translation also. So, Rabbi O ..:D
Well, got it with a Google search. Skulls do not float in water, but I agree with what came next - more wives, more witchcraft, etc.
There is no such "law" as far as I know.
Make it 'There is a reaction to every action'.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
It is cinnamon at present.
OK, I'm seeing a few issues with that, not sure if they're bugs or what. Maybe we'll discuss this part outside thread.
Buddhists mention in their books points to some sort of Nihilism. Most famous verse ascribed to Charvaks:
"Yaavat jivet sukham jivet, rinam kritvaa ghritam pibet l
bhasmibhootasya dehasya, punaraagamanam kutah ll
(When you live, live happily, take a loan to live well (drink clarified butter);
(because) once the body is cremated, where is coming back?)
Charvaka - Wikipedia
If I recall there is a special hell for it, I have it somewhere in a book... titled: Buddhist Scriptures of all things.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
You know but I do not know. It is a forum rule that if you give something in a language other than English, you have to provide the translation also. So, Rabbi O ..
I did not know that. Good rule.

He said, middah keneged middah, it is a version of cause and effect in Judaism.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The law

CAUSE AND EFFECT

WHAT YOU GIVE......OUT...……….YOU GET BACK.

IF YOU INVENT BY FORCED CONVERSION A ZERO OR A-Z CONVERSION TO MOVE MASS THROUGH INTO A TRANSFORMATION, BEING SCIENCE.

WHAT YOU GET BACK IS THE ZERO OUTCOME......FOR YOU IMPOSED THAT STATUS TO DESTROY/REMOVE CREATED FORM FROM EXISTING.

WHICH MAKES NO COMMON SENSE WHEN A HUMAN MALE/GROUP INFERS THAT THEY ARE CREATING.

IT IS A PROVEN MALE MIND/PSYCHE BELIEF THAT SCIENCE CREATES DESTRUCTION, HENCE THEY ARE THE DESTROYER SELF IN THE BIBLE.

FOR THEIR MIND PSYCHE PLACATES THAT IN THE BEGINNING THERE WAS NOTHING....YET SCIENCE ENFORCES THE PLACE FOR NOTHING THEIR OWN SELF FIRST BEFORE THEY CAUSE IT.

THEN IN SELF MIND PSYCHE POSSESSION CLAIMED THAT NOTHING EXISTED FIRST......WHEN EVERYONE ELSE SAYS EVERYTHING EXISTED FIRST AND YOU THEN REMOVED ITS FORM.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I have no idea what "a generic version of Karma" might be.

The Butterfly Effect is an idea about the sensitivity of non-linear systems to their initial conditions. It's not a "Law of Cause and Effect;" it's a description of certain systems that takes causality as a given.

It's actually an interesting physics problem to take a classical system subject to the Butterfly effect and see what happens to it when quantized. The quantum system tends to mimic the classical one, but 'spreads out' a bit faster.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I think everything is by cause and affect (everything is a play of dominoes). The only way I can see it not being cause and affect (and make just as much sense) if everything is eternal and there is no separation between dominoes so "no running into" each other. One act/motion/karma. While I understand the former, if I looked more into the religious eastern side of it, more than likely the latter would be more productive application if going by religion more than science.

At the quantum level, it's more like a single domino has the potential to hit more than one in line, but is not guaranteed to hit any any. It's like you flip a coin at each stage to see which of two (or more) following dominoes falls.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
From what I can tell, the Law of Cause and Effect is universal in all belief and non-belief systems in the entire world.

It's not a universal law. And by that I mean: it doesn't apply to everything in the univere.
At best, it is a "law" (I'ld rather say a phenomenon) in classical physics. Newtonian physics.

While Newton's work was, and still is, very usefull, it doesn't take into account relativistic effects and has no notion of the quantum world.

At the quantum level, causality isn't as cut and dry as on the classical level - if it even applies at all.


The only exclusion is a strict nihilist.


Que?
I don't see what nihilism has to do with how physics works.

Even Satanic Devil worshipers and Atheists believe in cause and effect don't they?

I also don't see what (a)theism has to do with how physics works.

These are things that deal with entirely different subjects.

Question: Is Cause and Effect universally True?

No.

( I grouped Atheists and Devil worshipers together because they both encourage the most personal freedom. No offense or equivalency intended in any other way. )

Again.......... what does "personal freedom" have to do with how the universe works?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
A very brief overview of thoughts on causality.

Aristotle recognized four types of cause: the material cause (what something is made of), the formal cause (essentially, its shape), an efficient cause (whatever immediately produced the thing), and a final cause (the purpose for which it is intended).

Today, the efficient cause is the only one that is commonly called a 'cause' at all. The shape is seen as being more of an accident and the material isn't seen as causal at all, but a condition for the causality.

Aristotle also thought that any sort of change at all (including motion) required a force to act, causing the change. Now, our ideas of force are quite different. Aristotle also believed that everything has a 'natural place' towards which it will prefer to move (so, heavy things move naturally to the center of the Earth).

Medieval Islamic thought debated whether there could be *any* causality other than the will of God. To even allow causal influence to humans was seen as infringing on the absolute power of God. it was envisioned that God recreates the universe between instances of time and there is NO necessary link between say, cotton being in a fire and it turning black and burning.

Medieval Europeans developed the notion of 'natural laws' which are dictated by God, and which all matter follows. This lead, of course, to the drive to find and understand those laws. They had great difficulty understanding, at a fundamental level, why an arrow continues in motion after leaving the bow.

Newton came along and offered a new set of physical laws that overturned the Aristotelian concepts on many points while providing a deeply mathematical description of how matter moves. This view of physics lasted until the early 20th century.

Hume pointed out that there is no way to establish causality beyond any doubt and that what is usually regarded as a causal link is, in reality, simply the close association of phenomena in time and place. In a sense, Hume was agreeing with a point made by the Islamic philosophers.

Kant wrestled with the critique of Hume, offering his own ideas about causality, but it seems most modern philosophers consider him to have failed in solving the basic problems.

In the 20th century, Russell said that the term 'cause' should be eliminated from the philosophy of science as being unnecessary. Instead, natural laws should be used instead.

Quantum mechanics arose as a non-causal, non-realist description of atomic phenomena. Even today, I think the philosophical implications of that have yet to be absorbed.

Finally, relativistic physics drastically changed our ideas about space and time and along with them, our understanding of things like causality. In this it only makes sense to talk about causlaity inside of the universe.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
My guess is that there may be an end to existence. Of course, nothing like that is suggested by science at the moment other than 'Zero-point Energy'. But who knows what science will find in future? We balk at the idea of non-existence just as we balked at relativity and Quantum Mechanics at one time. But this is a human perspective. 'What exists' may not be bound by such things. So, existence could have potentiality for non-existence and non-existence could have potentiality for existence.
Well, RigVeda points to it in the 'creation hymn'.
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation.True but Buddha was against nihilism. He said contemplating on these things is useless, does not make your life any better.

I was thinking of a ted talk about this, somewhat. The speaker mentioned that everything we do and the body's exerience etc are not isolated. We're living in a primitive brain and behavior, but it's masked with modern technology etc. It gives the impression we are no longer animals when we are doing the exact same animals do in a more complicated environment.

For example, the need for reconition and bonding by Facebook likes is to the brain no different than finding it in person connection. The brain doesn't make difference. Like pain. The brain doesn't know you hit your a chair or stubbed it on the corner sidewalk. It just knows pain.

So, no beginning but all acts in the reaction and perception of another. I guess once we acknowledge our "animal" or primal needs, we can fulfill them with modern things if need be. No dating apps and fast food though.

Maybe instead of cause and effect everything is simultaneously respondent to each other: chaos.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Quantum mechanics arose as a non-causal, non-realist description of atomic phenomena. Even today, I think the philosophical implications of that have yet to be absorbed.
But the million-dollar question is whether q.m. is "non-causal" or is of yet unknown cause(s)? Supposedly, at least according to some, the laws of physics does allow for there to be an uncaused event, but I have to admit I'm having a really hard time picturing that. How can 0 = 1? Matter + anti-matter can = 0, but that's still 2 or more forces that would be involved.

OK, so I'm an old man who learned old physics! :mad:
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Maybe instead of cause and effect everything is simultaneously respondent to each other: chaos.
That assumes that all that is perceived to happen in the universe is real. 'Advaita' starts from there. There are various levels of reality. :)
'What exists' (Brahman in Hinduism) is eternal (perhaps in two phases, existence and non-existence), it is formless, changeless and uninvolved in human affairs. It is not a God, it is the substrate. There are no two things, it is just one. I have not found anything till now which contradicts this.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
What is reality: When we walk, whether the whole group of molecules in our body moves or is it that the state of excitement of atoms moves from one place to another? I am posing a serious question. :)

For example, in Star War teletransportation, it may not be necessary to move the atoms of a body to Andromeda, but only create a replica of the state of atoms down on earth at another place.

proxy-image
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
What is reality: When we walk, whether the whole group of molecules in our body moves or is it that the state of excitement of atoms moves from one place to another?
My vote: In Reality, here, is cause and effect, in Truth, there is not.
 
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