The Lake of Fire is Reincarnation

[Yokefellow]

I think there is plenty in the biblical scriptures which refute reincarnation…

Hi @InChrist . Good points you posted. I will address...

“The concept of reincarnation, in any of its forms, is completely without foundation in the Bible.

I disagree of course.

The truth is that we die once and then face judgment (Hebrews 9:27).

The above verse is almost always misinterpreted with a bias towards making it sound like everyone 'has to die' and that it is 'only one time'.

Remember, there is a Second Death as well...

Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

To teach that people only die one time is clearly a false teaching. Moreover, if everyone has to die, then verses about the Rapture are in error...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Many Christians look forward to being raptured as opposed to having to die.

Let us not forget about Enoch and Elijah. They never died. There are even those who died more than one time after being brought back to life. Lazarus is one example...

John 11:43-44
"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go."

The Bible never even remotely suggests that people have a second chance at life...

On the contrary. The Bible teaches 'second chances' many times. Look at what happened to Jonah...

Jonah: A VeggieTales Movie - Second Chances​

...or that they can come back as different people or animals.

This is debatable. A 'beast's heart' was given to Nebuchadnezzar...

Daniel 4:16
"Let his heart be changed from man’s, and let a beast’s heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him."

We are made of Eukaryotic Cells. Animal cells...

Ecclesiastes 3:18
"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts."

Reincarnation has been a popular belief for thousands of years, but it has never been accepted by Christians or followers of Judaism because it is contradictory to Scripture.

Now they are just telling lies.

Several passages in Scripture refute the idea of reincarnation.

Nope. There is not a single one.

Jesus told the criminal on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43)—not “You will have another chance to live a life on earth.”

True, however that is a strawman argument. Some are born again (reincarnated) into a body of glory, while some are born again (reincarnated) into a body of corruption.

Matthew 25:46tells us that, upon death, believers go on to eternal life while unbelievers go on to eternal punishment.

Already addressed in post #3.

'Eternal Punishment' is where we exist currently.

We are created as individuals, and our identity does not change after death (see Luke 9:30).

Oops, that contradicts this verse...

Revelation 2:17
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

We get a 'new name', or more specifically, a new Genome. In other words, we get a new identity.

Moses and Elijah had not received theirs yet because it is still future.

Some who believe in reincarnation point to Matthew 17:10–12 as biblical support for reincarnation. The disciples ask Jesus about the commonly taught prophecy that Elijah must come before the Messiah (verse 10; cf. Malachi 4:5), and Jesus responds by identifying the “Elijah” of the prophecy as John the Baptist (Matthew 17:11–13).

The debate ends there. Jesus specifically said that John was Elijha...

Matthew 11:14
"And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

They even dressed similar and had similar manners. The Bible is going out of its way to teach basic reincarnation concepts.

However, Jesus was not teaching that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated.

That contradicts Matthew 11:14. Confirmation bias strikes again.

For one thing, Elijah did not die; he was taken to heaven in a chariot of fire (2 Kings 2:11), so the literal “coming” of Elijah would have been a descent from heaven, not a reincarnation.

That is opinion which is again based on a false interpretation of Matthew 11:14.

Jesus calls John the Baptist “Elijah” because he came in the “spirit and power of Elijah” (Luke 1:17)

That is the literal definition of Reincarnation as plain and succinct as can possibly be written!

not because he was Elijah in a literal sense.

Lol. Here we go with the 'that is not literal!' comments. See how the game is played?

The fact is that Jesus was absolutely being literal.

Also, Elijah himself had just appeared, talking with Jesus (Matthew 17:3), which shows that Elijah had not changed his identity—he had not become John.

The Transfiguration was to show that both Elijah and Moses were to be reincarnated. This is a Mystery that Christians have yet to wake up to.

Finally, the people had earlier asked John the Baptist if he was Elijah, and he said, “No, I am not” (John 1:21).”

So, who lied? Jesus or John? You have to pick one.

I say it was John who lied. Either he did not know, or he feared for his life.

 

[Yokefellow]

Reincarnation is not an endless spiral. Eventually, you reach the last incarnation and the process stops.

Bingo! The last incarnation takes place on the New Heavens and New Earth. Universalists are closest to figuring it all out.

Christianity appears to work under the assumption that each member is in their last incarnation, so what is left, is for the individual to make a choice and not blame fate. The line in the sand is clear cut at the last incarnation; choice.

As for Christians, yes, they are living their final incarnation, hence...

Mark 10:31
"But many that are first shall be last; and the last first."

Christians have no idea what the above verse actually means...

• Those on their first incarnation will be last to become Saved.
• Those on their last (final) incarnation will be first to be Saved.

It is a reincarnation verse.

 

[Yokefellow]

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to avoid reincarnation, or are there other ways?

Hi @River Sea .

As a Christian I believe Jesus is the only way as it is his Universe to begin with. He put us here, thus he is the only one with the 'Key' to get us out.

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala @Yokefellow
What was the reason for limiting people's freedom to experience their spiritual personal journey by telling them how to think, by media censors, and by the idea of saving, once and for all, by Jesus?

Mystery Babylon and Satan wants to keep us trapped here because they are currently in control and like it that way.

I don't think humans are reincarnated into animals, but only as humans. What do you think?

See my previous post (#21) about Nebuchadnezzar.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Hi @River Sea .

As a Christian I believe Jesus is the only way as it is his Universe to begin with. He put us here, thus he is the only one with the 'Key' to get us out.



Mystery Babylon and Satan wants to keep us trapped here because they are currently in control and like it that way.



See my previous post (#21) about Nebuchadnezzar.

Yokefellow, i was going to reply to all of your original post on this thread, however, after reading through some of the posts above, its pointless.

Whether or not you are willing to accept my criticism or not, your entire theology in this thread is deeply deficient in the presumptions that it makes from straw plucked bible texts that supposedly support your view.

I strongly urge those who read this thread to look more closely into the contexts of the texts that Yokefellow is using to support his doctrines...his theology is in most cases extremely unsound.

Yokefellow, there is a universal theological principle that must be followed or used to test if you like, Bible theology:

Alway compare and contrast premises against known/self revealing "intrinsic biblical themes".

Contrary to what is often claimed, the bible does not need special interpretation. It is self revealing in almost all of its major principles (i would argue all principles actually). The interpretation of Gods revelation of Himself to us has already been done by his writers. Thats the whole point! In the old testament it was the prophets who did the explaining (which has obviously been recorded accordingly), in the New testament the apostles explained the gospel to us. None of that needs further interpretation...its already been done!

Now in your first post, you state ( i have left out your references for brevity in not filling up this post with vast amounts of unnecessary information)...

Christians are told that the God of the Christian Bible either torments and burns the Unsaved for infinity, or completely annihilates them in a place called the Lake of Fire. Critics are quick to point out that this is a glaring contradiction to the 'God of Love' that the Bible advocates...​

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Ironically, the Christian Bible teaches neither infinite torments nor annihilation. Yet for some reason, these false teachings persist to this very day.​

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Christian Universalists have tried to break away from this Theology. They generally believe that Hell and the Lake of Fire is a 'purification process' and that all Human Beings will be Saved in the end...​

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This belief is very close to what the Bible actually teaches, however it falls short in Key areas which often results in downplaying the role of Jesus. As a result, Universalism is rejected by mainstream Christianity and banned as a topic of promotion on many Christian forums.​

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So, what does the Bible have to teach about the ultimate fate of Humanity? The answer is simple, yet difficult to accept for most Christians...​

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1. Not all Christians believe that there is eternal torment (SDA's for example are annihilationists and have exceptionally strong biblical referencing to support their doctrine on this. However, SDA's are also universalists because they believe that fire is a purification process!

2. Your claim above that critics see this as a glaring contradiction is exactly why SDA's use both of the above veiws...the bible teaches both actually!

3. Your statement about "God's law of Love" - your post completely misunderstands the nature of God and Love. Whether or not you are willing to accept an all-encompassing biblical theme, Love requires commitment, commitment has rules, if we do not follow the rules then consequences result. A simple example is marriage. A person who does not commit to the rules of marriage usually sees the other individual upset, unhappy, and most often, leaving! Essentially the partner who leaves cannot live in harmony within the marriage and ends it! God's love is conditional (in the same way as earthly marriage) on us staying committed to Him. The bible teaches that God and evil/sin cannot coexist in the same space. In fact, for us mortals, being in the presence of God is not only life-threatening, but also fatal! We are told that at the Second Coming of Christ, those who are alive but not saved will be "killed by the brightness of His coming"!


Now in moving on to your claim of Bible teaching reincarnation to a different individual or animal or something of that nature...im sorry but you are absolutely 100% wrong on this. The Bible does not teach that kind of reincarnation for anyone who has lived on this earth. There is only 1 individual who has taken on a form of existence that is different from that which they were originally...

Philippians 2: 5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:​

6Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,a​

7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.​

8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross.​

The bible very explicitly tells us what happens when we die...

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.​

The bible also very explicitly tells us what the overall theme is regarding salvation...restoration. We are redeemed back unto God and then everything that sin has corrupted and ruined in this world (incl sin iteself and its founder if you like), are purge from existence...

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,​

​

Note that the passage in Revelation 21 uses the term passed away when referring to the first heaven and earth. We know that this text is specifically referring to the world that God created for Adam and Eve, the world that we live on today, the world corrupted and ruined by sin. The use of the term pass away is quite obvious to any normal use of language. It does not matter what language one reads that phrase, it means the same thing...it dies.

When we read that in context and with reference to the purging of sin, as illustrated by the Old Testament Sanctuary Service, fire is always used to demonstrate cleansing. So what revelation 21 is saying is that by fire, this world will be cleansed and a new one will then be created.

However, the important thing to recognise in all of this, when someone/or something dies, they/it cease to exist. Phillipians 9 tells us quite plainly, no more memory of them exists...that entity is wiped from existence in any form. So the overall biblical them take precedence here...

God created a world without sin
Sin enterred this world through Adam and Eve (one man is blamed biblically)
Through 1 man (Christ) atonement for the wages of sin is made, and a pathway for salvation offered
Those who by faith in the grace of God, are redeemed back to God at the Second Coming
A new Heavens and New earth are created and the saved are restored back to the world as it was before sin corrupted and ruined it.

If sin is allowed to continue to exist after the above theme, we have God and sin coexisting together in the universe. I do not see any allowance of that coexistence in central biblical themes regarding the nature of God.

Oh one other thought in passing...

I think you or one of those who agree with your theology here, referenced Daniel in this thread (i forget where),

Might i remind you to take a look at an image of the statue in Nebuchadnezzars dream again...

4 Unique kingdoms Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, Rome...
1 mixed period of groups of powerful and week kingdoms (after Rome...what we see today and how its been since that time according to world history)
The a stone cut without hands, strikes the planet and fills the whole earth.

One should see the central theme of the prophecy in Daniel as meaning that after worldly kingdoms have been wiped out (including the feet of iron and clay), the prophecy in Revelation 21 will be the end result. There is no room in the narrative for reincarnation in the way in which you describe it.

The bible overwhelmingly teaches resurrection internally in:

John 5:29, Mark 12:23, Luke 20:27, Acts 17:32, Matthew 22:31, Hebrews 6:2, 2 Timothy 2:18, John 11:25, Acts 2:31, Mark 12:18, Revelation 20:6, 1 Corinthians 15:42, Phillipans 3:10, 1 Peter 3:21

We also find a direct link between death and resurrection in Thesslessonians

1 Thessalonians 4: 13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.​

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15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.​

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I guess the point of my post above is to simply say this...

When one does not ensure that their foundational premises are consistent with the overall bible themes, then almost certainly that foundational principle is wrong! If the foundational principle is wrong, then all other doctrines that are derived from it are also very likely to be wrong and need to be carefully examined.

Now the interesting thing is about theology, those who tend to straw pluck without adequate cross-referencing using bible concordances can stumble across truth...so not all of their doctrines are wrong. This is one reason why i think we have so many different Christian denominations around the world today.

 

[Yokefellow]

Hi @AdamjEdgar . Thanks for visiting and commenting. Let us see what you got.

Yokefellow, there is a universal theological principle that must be followed or used to test if you like, Bible theology:

Alway compare and contrast premises against known/self revealing "intrinsic biblical themes".

In other words, I must 'follow the *known* narrative' and never question what the 'authorities' have decreed. Got it.

...or completely annihilates them...

​

1. Not all Christians believe that there is eternal torment (SDA's for example are annihilationists and have exceptionally strong biblical referencing to support their doctrine on this.

Indeed, I had Seventh Day Adventists in mind when I used the phrase 'completely annihilates them' that you quoted. Just as an FYI, annihilation is not possible as that would mean God would have to annihilate himself. God gave the Spirit and the Spirit returns after death. Energy is transferred, never destroyed.

One could even argue that annihilation is worse than torments. It is the cruelest thing that God could ever do, if it were possible.

However, SDA's are also universalists because they believe that fire is a purification process!

Annihilation and Purification are contradictory. It is one or the other.

2. Your claim above that critics see this as a glaring contradiction is exactly why SDA's use both of the above veiws...the bible teaches both actually!

One cannot have it both ways. Universalism is about saving everyone, not 'some'.

We are told that at the Second Coming of Christ, those who are alive but not saved will be "killed by the brightness of His coming"!

We are Tripartite...

• Body
• Soul
• Spirit

The Body and Soul are destroyed in the Lake of Fire; however, the Spirit remains.

There is only 1 individual who has taken on a form of existence that is different from that which they were originally...

What about the Angels that left their first estate?

7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Kenosis. Interesting topic...

Kenosis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Jesus conceived himself, i.e., he is his own Father. The process of procreation works differently when going from Heaven to Earth. The Sons of God did something similar. They placed their 'essence' into the Egg Cells of women to conceive themselves. Their so called 'wives' were also their mothers.

The bible very explicitly tells us what happens when we die...

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.​

Apparently, those that are alive 'know nothing' either...

Job 8:9
(For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)

John 11:49
And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

1 Corinthians 4:4
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

The phrase 'know nothing' is not what people think it means.

'No further reward' is simple enough. Those that get a 'do over' have to start with a negative balance on their credit score.

'Their name is forgotten' is easy to understand as well. The Unsaved come back as a different person. The word 'name' can also mean One's Genome. They receive a 'new name'.

The bible also very explicitly tells us what the overall theme is regarding salvation...restoration.

Interesting word you chose, 'restoration'. Is Satan restored to a playful snake?

Isaiah 11:8
"And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den."

We are redeemed back unto God and then everything that sin has corrupted and ruined in this world (incl sin iteself and its founder if you like), are purge from existence...

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,​

The 'purge' has to do with God Eugenics. It is the genomic information that is purged from the Kingdom of God Seed Bank. Look at how sin is removed...

Zechariah 3:9
"For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day."

The above verse is literally describing the process of rewriting the genetic code of Life to remove sin permanently. That is how it is done. Any code that does not cut the mustard is destroyed in the Lake of Fire. It is a tangible and quantifiable procedure.

Note that the passage in Revelation 21 uses the term passed away when referring to the first heaven and earth. We know that this text is specifically referring to the world that God created for Adam and Eve, the world that we live on today, the world corrupted and ruined by sin.

We exist in a place called 'Everlasting Punishment'...

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

• This Heavens and this Earth = Everlasting Punishment
• New Heavens and New Earth = Life Eternal

They are opposites.

The opposite of Torments is Abraham's Bosom.

Might i remind you to take a look at an image of the statue in Nebuchadnezzars dream again...

4 Unique kingdoms Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, Rome...
1 mixed period of groups of powerful and week kingdoms (after Rome...what we see today and how its been since that time according to world history)
The a stone cut without hands, strikes the planet and fills the whole earth.

At the feet of Nebuchadnezzar's statue is where the genetics of Mankind are mingled...

Daniel 2:43
"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

That is the message. God draws the line when it comes to Transhumansim. We are living in that time right now. Days of Noe. Giants. Christians simply are not understanding what the Bible teaches over and over. It is all about DNA and who owns it, who has the copyright and who has the authority to 'mingle' it. It is really that simple.

The 'Stone' is euphemism for Seed/DNA. Jesus represents the Word of God. The Seed is the Word. Daniel 2:43 is all about a war between genetics. Transhumansim vs. God.

We are not in the dark ages anymore. Seventh Day Adventists as well as the other denominations need to wake up fast. Time is running out. They already failed the Plandemic test. It is not looking good for them.

There is no room in the narrative for reincarnation in the way in which you describe it.

Reincarnation is not linear. Someone can be sent all the way back to before the Flood if God desires.

The bible overwhelmingly teaches resurrection...

And there are two kinds of resurrections...

• Resurrection unto Life Eternal
• Resurrection of Damnation

Both lead to a new Body, which is technically Reincarnation, i.e., becoming Born Again.

When Jesus said...

John 3:7
"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

...he was telling Nicodemus that he had to choose which Born Again process to take...

• Born Again into another body of corruption
• Born Again into the Glorified Body

That is literally the meaning of Life right there. We are here to choose which incarnation to have in the next go-around.

Christians have falsely assumed that 'Born Again' is only into the Glorified Body.

I guess the point of my post above is to simply say this...

When one does not ensure that their foundational premises are consistent with the overall bible themes, then almost certainly that foundational principle is wrong! If the foundational principle is wrong, then all other doctrines that are derived from it are also very likely to be wrong and need to be carefully examined.

Which is why I am no longer a Seventh Day Adventist. I woke up by applying what you just wrote. You can wake up too. It is not too late.

Now the interesting thing is about theology, those who tend to straw pluck without adequate cross-referencing using bible concordances can stumble across truth...so not all of their doctrines are wrong. This is one reason why i think we have so many different Christian denominations around the world today.

The reason we have so many denominations is because they all begin with the false premise of 'there is no such thing as reincarnation'. They then twist every verse in the Bible to fit that lie. No one has the guts to stand up to Goliath except me and a few other brave souls who can see through the false narrative.

Christianity has one more shot at Revival. You are looking at it. If Christians ever wake up to the 'infinite torments' and 'annihilation' lies, they will Truly be able to finally preach the Good News to the world, which has never been done before.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

In other words, I must 'follow the *known* narrative' and never question what the 'authorities' have decreed. Got it.

Christians take the word of God as inspired. the point of your statement is not event relevant...a childish i dont like that spat doesnt even apply here.

Indeed, I had Seventh Day Adventists in mind when I used the phrase 'completely annihilates them' that you quoted. Just as an FYI, annihilation is not possible as that would mean God would have to annihilate himself. God gave the Spirit and the Spirit returns after death. Energy is transferred, never destroyed.

do you have a dictionary???
In Christianity, annihilationism is the belief that after the Last Judgment, all damned humans and fallen angels including Satan will be totally destroyed (wikipedia)

Annihilation and Purification are contradictory. It is one or the other.

who mentioned purificationism?

One cannot have it both ways. Universalism is about saving everyone, not 'some'.

Universalism is the philosophical and theological concept that some ideas have universal application or applicability.

A belief in one fundamental truth is another important tenet in universalism. The living truth is seen as more far-reaching than the national, cultural, or religious boundaries or interpretations of that one truth. A community that calls itself universalist may emphasize the universal principles of most religions, and accept others in an inclusive manner. (wikipedia)

We are Tripartite...

• Body
• Soul
• Spirit

The Body and Soul are destroyed in the Lake of Fire; however, the Spirit remains.

The breath of life goes back to God after death. Spirit cannot remain biblically because, even in your world view, that would require consciousness would it not? The bible very specifically states...

Ecclesiastes 9:5​

King James Version​

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The phrase 'know nothing' is not what people think it means.

'No further reward' is simple enough. Those that get a 'do over' have to start with a negative balance on their credit score.

'Their name is forgotten' is easy to understand as well. The Unsaved come back as a different person. The word 'name' can also mean One's Genome. They receive a 'new name'.

see text above. You can play textual games all you like... biblical concordance cross-referencing for "the dead know nothing" interpretation are below:

Ecclesiastes 1:11​

There is no remembrance of those who came before, and those yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow after.​

Ecclesiastes 2:16​

For there is no lasting remembrance of the wise, just as with the fool, seeing that both will be forgotten in the days to come. Alas, the wise man will die just like the fool!​

Ecclesiastes 8:10​

Then too, I saw the burial of the wicked who used to go in and out of the holy place, and they were praised in the city where they had done so. This too is futile.​

Ecclesiastes 9:4​

There is hope, however, for anyone who is among the living; for even a live dog is better than a dead lion.​

Ecclesiastes 9:10​

Whatever you find to do with your hands, do it with all your might, for in Sheol, where you are going, there is no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom.​

The writer of Ecclesiastes makes himself quite clear on the topic of death!

Then there's the following from King David...

Psalm 6:5​

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?​

​

Psalm 88:10,11​

Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah​

 

[River Sea]

They may reincarnate as animals. The soul has no body or gender.

I'm I allowed to ask questions about reincarnation

Moses reincarnated do you wonder? is this ok to ask this question

I understand soul has no body or gender.

I do believe we get reincarnated.

I hope I'm doing ok asking,

 

[Yokefellow]

I'm I allowed to ask questions about reincarnation

Ask away friend.

Moses reincarnated do you wonder? is this ok to ask this question

I believe Moses reincarnated as Paul. There are many similarities between the two.

I understand soul has no body or gender.

The Soul is Feminine in the KJV...

Psalms 34:2
"My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad."

This makes sense since Christians are the 'Bride' of Christ.

I do believe we get reincarnated.

In my opinion, reincarnation is the only thing that explains why life is so unfair to some, but fair to others.

I hope I'm doing ok asking,

This forum is a lot friendlier and open minded to that topic. Anywhere else, we would probably be banned quick. The censorship is awful out there. I see some of your posts were closed in other places. Bummer.

 

[River Sea]

I believe Moses reincarnated as Paul. There are many similarities between the two.

@Yokefellow what are some of the similarities between Moses, who reincarnated as Paul?

 

[Yokefellow]

@Yokefellow what are some of the similarities between Moses, who reincarnated as Paul?

Here are some quotes I found in this link...

Comparison list of 26 Moses/Paul Shadows, Types, Antitypes and similarities

• Both were chosen from birth for a special divine purpose.
• Both escaped death through a woven basket.
• Both murdered someone immediately before their conversions.
• Both talked to God after seeing a bright light in the wilderness.
• Both asked God, “who are you” and God replied, "I AM".
• Both were law givers who wrote major sections of scripture.
• Both performed spectacular and extraordinary miracles.
• Both had speech impediments but produced powerful and impressive written documents.
• Writing on stone vs. spirit.

Here is a quote from another link...

"The crucible out of which both men were forged is amazingly parallel. And to the spiritually discerning, the unmistakable signature of the Master Potter is indelibly etched upon their lives."

Moses, The Prophet Paul, The Apostle – Israel My Glory

israelmyglory.org

 

[River Sea]

Here are some quotes I found in this link...

Comparison list of 26 Moses/Paul Shadows, Types, Antitypes and similarities

• Both were chosen from birth for a special divine purpose.
• Both escaped death through a woven basket.
• Both murdered someone immediately before their conversions.
• Both talked to God after seeing a bright light in the wilderness.
• Both asked God, “who are you” and God replied, "I AM".
• Both were law givers who wrote major sections of scripture.
• Both performed spectacular and extraordinary miracles.
• Both had speech impediments but produced powerful and impressive written documents.
• Writing on stone vs. spirit.

Here is a quote from another link...

"The crucible out of which both men were forged is amazingly parallel. And to the spiritually discerning, the unmistakable signature of the Master Potter is indelibly etched upon their lives."

Moses, The Prophet Paul, The Apostle – Israel My Glory

israelmyglory.org

@Yokefellow

Both escaped death through a woven basket.

@Yokefellow You were showing similarities, showing that Moses reincarnated as Paul.

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala shows that Moses is Krishna, showing similarities to the basket, so could then Krishna be reincarnated as Paul too?

From @Bharat Jhunjhunwala website Similarity of Moses and Krishna? - Common Prophets of the Jews, Christians & Muslims and Hindus

Moses’s mother hid him for three months after giving birth. Then, unable to hide him, she put infant Moses in a basket and put the basket in the river.

Vasudeva then put infant Krishna in a basket and carried him across the Yamuna.

 

[Yokefellow]

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala shows that Moses is Krishna, showing similarities to the basket, so could then Krishna be reincarnated as Paul too?

I do not know. The connection between Moses and Krishna is something I just learned in your threads. What the heck is going on?... lol.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

I do not know. The connection between Moses and Krishna is something I just learned in your threads. What the heck is going on?... lol.

There is more to it. The problems of geography of the Bible can be resolved if we consider exodus from Indus valley.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala
That's sad that any church that exorcised reincarnation, because of this word, 'save'. If anyone made a story the only way, then it's the story that's "God," and God will be submissive to the story as no longer God. So save is God, as God submits to save, as churches worship save.

This is how I understood the word, all from your pdf.

From your pdf from your website.

AN INTERPRETATION OF ADAM’S FALL IN THE LIGHT OF FAR EASTERN PSYCHOLOGY - Common Prophets of the Jews, Christians & Muslims and Hindus

This text proposes a dialogue between theology and science, advocating for mutual understanding. It suggests reinterpreting Hebrew words in the Adam narrative

www.commonprophets.com

AN INTERPRETATION OF
ADAM’S FALL IN THE LIGHT OF FAR EASTERN PSYCHOLOGY
Bharat JHUNJHUNWALA

ABSTRACT
These interpretations are consistent with the majesty of Jesus Christ in helping establish a conscious connection between man and God

My response: I see you showing for all. Jesus Christ in helping establish a conscious connection between man and God.

Further down your pdf
Norman R. Gulley of Southern College of Seventh-day Adventists says “If humans are born separated from God, then the center of their lives in not God but self.”
23 We would like to also see this as a first step necessary for the conscious drawing to God

My response: again showing all. first step necessary for the conscious drawing to God (all)
I will add my understanding of this word separated symbol; I understand that as we're still all one, we're not actually separated. However, as Gulley uses word separately, it's showing how this draws us to God. (all)

Further down your pdf
The result of this discussion is that the creation from “dust” refers to the implanting of negative qualities of violence and the beginning of independent thinking. This was a positive step in the larger scheme of God

My response: (all) as a journey a relationship communication. If I'm misunderstanding anything please correct me, it's that I'm showing how when reading your pdf I seen all all over the place. I see spirituality more as journey relationship. So how does God communicate? Here it's showing beginning of independent thinking. It's a process.

Also you wrote:
all humans may have broken out of the primitive stupor and started independent thinking after God planted the negative qualities in the person of Adam

My response: you even used the word all. all humans.

Further down your pdf
We suggest an alternative reading of this verse that God wanted Adam and Eve
to eat of the Tree

Further down your pdf
Adam would be deprived of the opening of the eyes and continue to live in the primitive stupor if he did not eat of the Tree. Future generations would be deprived of the opening of the eyes and they would fail to evolve if Adam devoured the Tree.

My response: again I see (all) Future generations would be deprived by what, Adam not eating from tree. It's not one person it's (all)

Further down your pdf
We bring in far eastern psychology to gain in sight into the matter. Swami Satyananda Saraswati, the doyen of Yoga of the last century, explains: Most commonly, Kundalini is illustrated as a sleeping serpent coiled three and a half times. Of course there is no serpent residing in… any… chakra, but the serpent has always been a symbol for efficient consciousness

My response: (all) it doesn't mean it happens to everyone all at the same time, it means available to all.

Further down your pdf
NKJV: For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. We understand this verse to say that from Adam came the severing of the live connection with God or death. Likewise, by Jesus Christ came the reconnection with God.
Here, the Greek word “anastasis” is conventionally translated as resurrection. It is derived
from “anistemi” which means “standing up again” and could indicate reconnection with
God.

My response: again (all), however, I'm sharing my understanding that death or separation is a symbol. So as in Adam, all die. Die symbol. Even so, in Christ, all shall be made alive. Alive symbol. We're all already one.

Conclusion area in your pdf
We suggest that the creation of Adam from “dust” may refer to the implanting of negative qualities by God to break the primitive bliss and to take the first steps to wards establishing a conscious connection with God

my response: again I see all. I think I can also add the word dust as a symbol word..

So that's what I meant by all and also can continue in reincarnation as we're all one.

You were saying how Christians church exorcised reincarnation because it challenges the idea of saving by jesus once for all.

I think people turn spirituality into permanent situations and rejects a journey relationship. Was saving meaning helping, I don't know., maybe another study where the word save came from and how did this word become permanent.

In my assessment spirituality comes either under extrreme stress such as loss of hearing, or extreme achievement when there is nothing more to achieve. So people have to struggle till then.

 

[River Sea]

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala

This is how I understood the word, all from your pdf.

From your pdf from your website.

AN INTERPRETATION OF ADAM’S FALL IN THE LIGHT OF FAR EASTERN PSYCHOLOGY - Common Prophets of the Jews, Christians & Muslims and Hindus​

This passage urges against pursuing a rigid concordism or discordism between theology and science but encourages dialogue for mutual understanding. It
www.commonprophets.com
AN INTERPRETATION OF
ADAM’S FALL IN THE LIGHT OF FAR EASTERN PSYCHOLOGY
Bharat JHUNJHUNWALA

ABSTRACT
These interpretations are consistent with the majesty of Jesus Christ in helping establish a conscious connection between man and God

My response: I see you showing for all. Jesus Christ in helping establish a conscious connection between man and God.

Further down your pdf
Norman R. Gulley of Southern College of Seventh-day Adventists says “If humans are born separated from God, then the center of their lives in not God but self.”
23 We would like to also see this as a first step necessary for the conscious drawing to God

My response: again showing all. first step necessary for the conscious drawing to God (all)
I will add my understanding of this word separated symbol; I understand that as we're still all one, we're not actually separated. However, as Gulley uses word separately, it's showing how this draws us to God. (all)

Further down your pdf
The result of this discussion is that the creation from “dust” refers to the implanting of negative qualities of violence and the beginning of independent thinking. This was a positive step in the larger scheme of God

My response: (all) as a journey a relationship communication. If I'm misunderstanding anything please correct me, it's that I'm showing how when reading your pdf I seen all all over the place. I see spirituality more as journey relationship. So how does God communicate? Here it's showing beginning of independent thinking. It's a process.

Also you wrote:
all humans may have broken out of the primitive stupor and started independent thinking after God planted the negative qualities in the person of Adam

My response: you even used the word all. all humans.

Further down your pdf
We suggest an alternative reading of this verse that God wanted Adam and Eve
to eat of the Tree

Further down your pdf
Adam would be deprived of the opening of the eyes and continue to live in the primitive stupor if he did not eat of the Tree. Future generations would be deprived of the opening of the eyes and they would fail to evolve if Adam devoured the Tree.

My response: again I see (all) Future generations would be deprived by what, Adam not eating from tree. It's not one person it's (all)

Further down your pdf
We bring in far eastern psychology to gain in sight into the matter. Swami Satyananda Saraswati, the doyen of Yoga of the last century, explains: Most commonly, Kundalini is illustrated as a sleeping serpent coiled three and a half times. Of course there is no serpent residing in… any… chakra, but the serpent has always been a symbol for efficient consciousness

My response: (all) it doesn't mean it happens to everyone all at the same time, it means available to all.

Further down your pdf
NKJV: For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. We understand this verse to say that from Adam came the severing of the live connection with God or death. Likewise, by Jesus Christ came the reconnection with God.
Here, the Greek word “anastasis” is conventionally translated as resurrection. It is derived
from “anistemi” which means “standing up again” and could indicate reconnection with
God.

My response: again (all), however, I'm sharing my understanding that death or separation is a symbol. So as in Adam, all die. Die symbol. Even so, in Christ, all shall be made alive. Alive symbol. We're all already one.

Conclusion area in your pdf
We suggest that the creation of Adam from “dust” may refer to the implanting of negative qualities by God to break the primitive bliss and to take the first steps to wards establishing a conscious connection with God

my response: again I see all. I think I can also add the word dust as a symbol word..

So that's what I meant by all and also can continue in reincarnation as we're all one.

I think people turn spirituality into permanent situations and rejects a journey relationship. Was saving meaning helping, I don't know., maybe another study where the word save came from and how did this word become permanent.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

. I see spirituality more as journey relationship. So how does God communicate? Here it's showing beginning of independent thinking. It's a process

Very much. God is all encompassing. He.she is within us as well. A continuous flux. Jesus helped connect with It.

 

[River Sea]

I see spirituality more as journey relationship. So how does God communicate? Here it's showing beginning of independent thinking. It's a process

Very much. God is all encompassing. He.she is within us as well. A continuous flux. Jesus helped connect with It.

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Yes, I agree with you that Jesus helped connect with he.she within us.
I can relate to the word "help" because help is a "journey word" instead of the word "save," because save is a "permanent word" that causes people to exclude others.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Pistis Sophia, Chapter 128, Page 187: If... a sinning man who hath completed his number of circuits in the changes of the body...

 

[River Sea]

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala

this you share highlighted in purple from

Pistis Sophia, by G.R.S. Mead, [1921], at sacred-texts.com

What do you think of this @Yokefellow
​

---

Pistis Sophia: A Fourth Book: Chapter 128

Pistis Sophia, by G.R.S. Mead, [1921], full text etext at sacred-texts.com

sacred-texts.com

CHAPTER 128​

The disciples bewail the fate of sinners.And when the Saviour had said this unto Mary, she smote her breast, she cried out and wept, she and all the disciples together, and said: "Woe unto sinners, for their chastisements are exceedingly numerous!"

Mary came forward, she fell down at the feet of Jesus, kissed them and said: "My Lord, bear with me if I question thee, and be not wroth with me, that I trouble thee oft; for from now on I will begin to question thee on all things with determination."

The Saviour answered and said unto Mary: "Question concerning all things on which thou desirest to question, and I will reveal them unto thee in openness without similitude."

Mary further questioneth Jesus.Mary answered and said: "My Lord, if a good man hath accomplished all the mysteries and he hath a kinsman, in a word he hath a man, and that man is an impious [one] who hath committed all sins and is deserving of the outer darkness, and he hath not repented, or he hath completed his number of circuits in the changes of the body, and that man hath done nothing useful,

p. 270

and he hath come out of. the body, and we have known certainly of him, that he hath sinned |326. and is deserving of the outer darkness,--what are we to do with him, to save him from the chastisements of the dragon of the outer darkness, and that he may be removed into a righteous body which shall find the mysteries of the Light-kingdom, in order that it may be good and go on high and inherit the Light-kingdom?"

How to save the souls of sinners.The Saviour answered and said unto Mary: "If a sinner is deserving of the outer darkness, or hath sinned according to the chastisements of the rest of the chastisements and hath not repented, or a sinning man who hath completed his number of circuits in the changes of the body and hath not repented,--if then these men of whom I have spoken, shall come out of the body and be led into the outer darkness, now, therefore, if ye desire to remove them out of the chastisements of the outer darkness and all the judgments and to remove them into a righteous body which shall find the mysteries of the Light, that it may go on high and inherit the Light-kingdom,--then perform this same mystery of the Ineffable which forgiveth sins at every time, and when ye have finished performing the mystery then say:

A summary of the formulæ."The soul of such or such a man of whom I think in my heart,--if it is in the region of the chastisements of the dungeons of the outer darkness, or if it is in the rest of the chastisements of the dungeons of the outer darkness and in the rest of the chastisements |327. of the dragons,--then is it to be removed out of them all. And if it hath completed its number of its circuits of the changes,

p. 271

then is it to be led before the Virgin of Light, and the Virgin of Light is to seal it with the seal of the Ineffable and cast it down in whatever month into a righteous body which shall find the mysteries of the Light, so that it may be good, go on high and inherit the Light-kingdom. And moreover if it hath completed the circuits of changes, then is that soul to be led before the seven virgins of the Light who [are set] over the baptisms, and they are to apply them to the soul and seal it with the sign of the kingdom of the Ineffable and lead it into the orders of the Light.

"This then will ye say when ye perform the mystery.

"Amēn, I say unto you: The soul for which ye shall pray, if it indeed is in the dragon of the outer darkness, he will draw his tail out of his mouth and let go that soul. And moreover if it is in all the regions of the judgments of the rulers, amēn, I say unto you: The receivers of Melchisedec will with haste snatch it away, whether the dragon let it go or it is in the judgments of the rulers; in a word, the receivers of Melchisedec |328. will snatch it away out of all the regions in which it is, and will lead it into the region of the Midst before the Virgin of Light, and the Virgin of Light proveth it and seeth the sign of the kingdom of the Ineffable which is on that soul.

"And if it hath not yet completed its number of circuits in the changes of the soul, or [in the changes] of the body, the Virgin of Light sealeth it with an excellent seal and hasteth to have it cast down in any month into a righteous body which shall find the mysteries of the Light, be good and go on high into the Light-kingdom.

p. 272

"And if that soul hath had its number of the circuits, then the Virgin of Light proveth it, and doth not have it chastized, because it hath had its number of circuits, but handeth it over to the seven virgins of the Light. And the seven virgins of the Light prove that soul, baptize it with their baptisms and give it the spiritual chrism and lead it into the Treasury of the Light and put it in the last order of the Light until the ascension of all the perfect souls. And when they prepare to draw apart the veils of the region of those of the Right, they cleanse that soul anew and purify it and put it in the orders of the first saviour who [is] in the |329. Treasury of the Light."

 

[River Sea]

or the lake of fire is pure fiction, stolen from the Egyptians.

@Wandering Monk can you please share with me this lake of fire from the Egyptians? And @Bthoth do you know anything about this story from the Egyptians about the lake of fire?

I think of the lake of fire as spiritual food; do you observe this too? Fire is food from light. Feeds us fire. Yes. Oh and fire is water. Yes. Words: Flames of Fire.
That's in that song. So is the word light in this song.

Oh, my song, which I'm addicted to hearing. Please listen and let me know if you like it too.