The Human Jesus

[Rejected]

I don't need science to test if my God is real. That's the problem with atheists like yourself, you want God to 'prove' Himself to you and that's just silly.

Be careful...
I never said anywhere that I was an Atheist. I just expect "god" to conform to his creation. It’s just a little hypocritical

Hows about this one:

Let us assume that your god is all-powerful, knows everything, and wants everyone to be happy.

But there's evil in the world...Hmm....

So god wants us all to be happy, but there's evil in the world.
"Free will" you say.
Ok fine.
But if god were all powerful, benevolent and all knowing then he could create a world where everyone was happy, without the need for evil, or free will.

So

Either god can abolish evil, but does not want to - which makes him evil
Or
God wants to but cannot abolish evil, which makes him impotent.

Either way god loses.

 

[Bishka]

Be careful...
I never said anywhere that I was an Atheist. I just expect "god" to conform to his creation. It’s just a little hypocritical

Hows about this one:

Let us assume that your god is all-powerful, knows everything, and wants everyone to be happy.

But there's evil in the world...Hmm....

So god wants us all to be happy, but there's evil in the world.
"Free will" you say.
Ok fine.
But if god were all powerful, benevolent and all knowing then he could create a world where everyone was happy, without the need for evil, or free will.

Actually, you have it all confused.

God is all-powerful and all-knowing. There is evil in the world because God will NEVER force us to be good, he will NEVER force us to choose Him, that's what free will is all about, it's about our choice to do whatever we will. God does know what is going to happen, but He is not going to stop us from making choices.

 

[Comet]

AS FOR THE OP:

I think this is a great question. We just debated the other day here where I work if Adam and Eve would have had belly buttons or not. Anyway, he would have had to have all the chromosomes or he would not have been human. I revert to Michel and his answer.

 

[Polaris]

Let us assume that your god is all-powerful, knows everything, and wants everyone to be happy.

But there's evil in the world...Hmm....

So god wants us all to be happy, but there's evil in the world.
"Free will" you say.
Ok fine.
But if god were all powerful, benevolent and all knowing then he could create a world where everyone was happy, without the need for evil, or free will.

So

Either god can abolish evil, but does not want to - which makes him evil
Or
God wants to but cannot abolish evil, which makes him impotent.

Either way god loses.

You're missing the whole point. God didn't create us and place us here just to be happy and live in some little sphere of love and tranquility. We are here to learn, be tested, and choose for ourselves what we become. Though God didn't create evil and suffering, He does allow it to exist. As Becky said, He has given us freedom to chose our actions and behaviors -- that's part of the learning and growing process. How could we ever really progress if we were hand fed the answer to every difficult decision? Similarly how could we really progress if we never had to experience some sort of pain or suffering or temptation?

There will come a time when God will abolish evil, but for now God allows it because it's through that opposition that we are strengthened.

 

[Nehustan]

Hi there, saw that this was not in a Christian section so thought I'd add my tuppence. I did actually ponder this years ago, and somebody did mention IVF which figured in my understanding of the nativity some 15 years ago. I think that Gabriel would have been more than capable of getting clay (i.e. 22 +Y chromosones) from any man, to my understanding he brought Muhammad forward in time, so I think he could manage IVF. I think however we know exactly where the clay came from, I haven't read it for some time, but doesn't Jesus' lineage from David descend at least in part through Joseph? So I suggest that the 'male' clay (23) came from Joseph, tho' not through sexual relations, and then the 'Ruh' (Ruach/Spirit), well surely that came from God.

 

[Quiddity]

The myth of the Virgin Birth had resonance for ancient Christians, but this is an example of what happens when we try to factualize myth. Jesus received half his chromosomes from his father, who was undoubtedly a very human male. I'll leave it to those who insist on a factual Virgin Birth to argue about whether Jesus was a genetic clone of his mother or inherited divine chromosomes from his non-human father, but I don't think it's the kind of discussion that would show Christianity in a good light.

If we believe he walked on water, fed thousands, etc. why would this be any different?

 

[dawny0826]

You have to admit, in today's society the immaculate conception has one word associated with it when it happens......pre marital sex...with possibly failed protection.

No...I don't have to admit anything...as I believe the Word and believe that Mary, the Mother of God was a virgin when she conceived Christ.

 

[dawny0826]

I am not one so I do not know, aren't you one whats your opinion on this?

When I think of Christ's looks...I think of my Savior battered, torn...ridiculed...beaten...crucified and pierced...I think of a blood stained face...as he died for me.

 

[Katzpur]

Wow! I can't believe that I actually started a thread that got more than three responses! I'm feel very impressed with myself.

Ok, you admit that you believe JC was human, just like you and me.
Humans have 46 chromosomes. 23 from mom - 23 from dad
If Jesus was Human, as you said you believe, he has to have 46 chromosomes.
23 from Mary, no problem. But since Joseph had never slept with Mary where did the other 23 come from?

So far, it seems that you're the only person who managed to understand my OP. I am not denying the Virgin Birth. I am saying that, regardless of how Mary became pregnant with Jesus, if Jesus was a human, both of His parents would have had to have had human chromosomes. Furthermore, both of them would have had to have contributed a strand of 23. If Jesus' Father was a spirit whose presence filled the universe, where did the second strand of 23 chromosomes come from?

It is an issue because its one more ridiculous claim by the church who feed this and other rubbish to people who are too young to examine all the information.
To believe that Christ was conceived by the "Holy Spirit" is not a measure of faith, it’s a measure of how far you can throw reason and logic out the window when it comes religion and reality.

I don't believe that He was "conceived by the Holy Spirit" in the same way most Christians do. I do, however, believe (1) that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary (whatever that may mean), (2) that God the Father (and not the Holy Ghost) is literally the Father of Jesus Christ -- in other words, the Father and the Son are not just titles the first and second persons of the Godhead go by; those titles describe an actual relationship, and (3) by some unknown process, Mary both conceived and gave birth to the Son of God while remaining a virgin.

But just to make myself clear, my point in posting the OP was to discuss the nature of Jesus Christ's Father, not to debate the Virgin Birth.

 

[Katzpur]

I find it slightly strange/amusing that you should be concerned over chromosomes (please don't take offence); I am sure that jesus was as human as you or I (but with the connection to God 'open' unlike us); I don't honestly believe that God would have a problem 'producing' a human being, as it was he who breathed life on Earth............

I'm not offended but I don't understand your amusement, michel. If Jesus was truly human, I just want to know how he managed to end up with 46 chromosomes if He was fathered by an invisible essence.

 

[sojourner]

If God could cause a virgin to become pregnant, don't you think God could have caused all of the chromosomes necessary for full humanity? This is such a non-issue.

edit: The real miracle isn't the virgin birth, or that Jesus could have all the chromosomes. The real miracle is that God humbled God's self, becoming one of us, and became obedient to the point of death on a cross. That's the real miracle.

 

[dawny0826]

The real miracle is that God humbled God's self, becoming one of us, and became obedient to the point of death on a cross. That's the real miracle.

Amen, to that!

 

[Quiddity]

I'm not offended but I don't understand your amusement, michel. If Jesus was truly human, I just want to know how he managed to end up with 46 chromosomes if He was fathered by an invisible essence.

You could say the same of Adam and Eve; could you not?

 

[Quiddity]

If God could cause a virgin to become pregnant, don't you think God could have caused all of the chromosomes necessary for full humanity? This is such a non-issue.

edit: The real miracle isn't the virgin birth, or that Jesus could have all the chromosomes. The real miracle is that God humbled God's self, becoming one of us, and became obedient to the point of death on a cross. That's the real miracle.

If there was a virgin birth now adays (which seems like it would be difficult to prove and she would most likely be called a liar anyways) you bet it would be in the news. I think they are both miracles, but I'm far more impressed with God doing what He did.

 

[jorylore]

I'm not offended but I don't understand your amusement, michel. If Jesus was truly human, I just want to know how he managed to end up with 46 chromosomes if He was fathered by an invisible essence.

Ok. Here is what i think...

He conjured them up out of thin air. Everything is made up of atoms anyway, right? They are all around us. So, invisible molecules and atoms taken from the universe were solidified to make the remaining 23 chromosones needed for Jesus to exist. Holy spirit then tranferred them to Mary's womb for conception.

Not impossible for the greatest scientist in the world.

This is as good an explaination as any.

 

[logician]

"The Immaculate Conception is the teaching that the Virgin Mary was, from the moment of her conception, free from original sin."

The RCC in many ways has made a goddess out of Mary.

 

[Simon Gnosis]

Why are you discussing this?

Immaculate conception?

Well if we wanted to wave our magic God wand then I expect pretty much anything is possible ROFL.

Honestly thats why I turned my back on orthodox christianity, too much conjecture and speculation on sheer orthodox fantasy.

Jesus was a human in every sense of the word, he had a human father, to say he was concieved without spermatazoa, well thats just plain ignorance and airy fairy wish full thinking, God does not hate sex, so why do these people seem to think that a man without a father is somehow better?
Because he wasnt brought into this world through SIN unlike all other organisms?
Laughable and irrelevant.
The message of christ is no less because he was a normal man, and he was no super man, he wasnt God, he was a messiah.

Messenger.

 

[Nehustan]

So far, it seems that you're the only person who managed to understand my OP. I am not denying the Virgin Birth. I am saying that, regardless of how Mary became pregnant with Jesus, if Jesus was a human, both of His parents would have had to have had human chromosomes. Furthermore, both of them would have had to have contributed a strand of 23. If Jesus' Father was a spirit whose presence filled the universe, where did the second strand of 23 chromosomes come from?

I'm gonna suggest it again Katzpur, but doesn't the bible imply that the 22 + the Y came from Joseph. I'm speaking clay here, not the spirit, and I'm not implying that Joseph lay with Mary. I can go and look it up but I'm sure there is a part of the gospels that goes through the generations to David via Joseph?

(looked it up...Matthew 1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=1&version=9)​

 

[Rejected]

You're missing the whole point. God didn't create us and place us here just to be happy and live in some little sphere of love and tranquility.

Then what was the garden of Eden?

We are here to learn, be tested, and choose for ourselves what we become. Though God didn't create evil and suffering, He does allow it to exist.

If god created everything, and evil and suffering exist, then they must have come from god.

How do you explain it?

As Becky said, He has given us freedom to chose our actions and behaviors -- that's part of the learning and growing process. How could we ever really progress if we were hand fed the answer to every difficult decision? Similarly how could we really progress if we never had to experience some sort of pain or suffering or temptation?

There will come a time when God will abolish evil, but for now God allows it because it's through that opposition that we are strengthened.

This is why I hate religious debates. I try to make a valid argument and instead of a decent rebuttal all I ever hear is "well, god is mysterious, and thats the way he wants things."

Try thinking about the question for yourselves instead of falling back on what you've been told to beleive.
If you still can't figure out an answer then have the dignity to say "I don't know" instead of attributing it to a mythical, malevolent man in the sky.

 

[James the Persian]

Why are you discussing this?

Immaculate conception?

I think you'll find it's because someone early on referred to belief in the Virgin Birth as belief in the Immaculate Conception, which is a completely different doctrine.

Jesus was a human in every sense of the word, he had a human father, to say he was concieved without spermatazoa, well thats just plain ignorance and airy fairy wish full thinking, God does not hate sex, so why do these people seem to think that a man without a father is somehow better?
Because he wasnt brought into this world through SIN unlike all other organisms?
Laughable and irrelevant.
The message of christ is no less because he was a normal man, and he was no super man, he wasnt God, he was a messiah.

I find it interesting that you adhere to this belief and yet consider yourself to be Gnostic. I can't think of a single Gnostic group that believed in a purely human Christ and, in fact, if anything they erred on the side of Docetism. That is, the heresy that says Christ, being God, only appeared to be human.

The orthodox (small 'o' deliberate) position is that Christ was both fully God and fully man in every way. That means physically, mentally and spiritually. It does not mean He was a human body with a Divine spirit. Such a view would be a variant of monophysitism. I would agree with others that exactly how the Incarnation happened is irrelevant. If God can make a virgin conceive He can fashion the child's human body in any number of ways. If you have faith, then, that the virgin birth actually happened, trivia such as where his DNA came from become completely irrelevant.

James