The Greater Insult

[thomas t]

He apparently take no blame for not having set things straight, but allowed false teachings to be taught about himself, for him to then at the end times appear as the "wise old man" judging them for not knowing better.

ok,
but look when I carry dirt into the church... can I blame the church for not cleaning it?
Why should there be a someone constantly tidying up when I mess up?

Similarly, when people invent myths about God, why does he have to constantly set things straight here on earth, according to you? Is he like a cleaner? Is he your cleaner perhaps or anything in this direction?

I believe the Bible has things right, though. Even if it started off as a history between God and one tribe.

 

[firedragon]

My discussion is about human ideas about God.

• First, think (as much as possible) of all the religions in human history -- there have been, probably, 100,000 or more.
• Then think of how many there still are today.
• Consider the many wars of religion, for example the many in Europe during the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. They seemed to go on forever.
• Think how many people have been killed for believing in the wrong religion – or even in the same religion but in “the wrong way.”
• Consider the fact that most children grow up believing what their parents believe – not 100%, to be sure, but surely the vast majority.
• Look at these forums, and see if you can find one example – just one – of a member having their beliefs changed by virtue of a solid argument presented in one or more threads.

Now, consider human notions of God, especially notions in the Abrahamic religions:

• Wise (to the point of all-wise)
• Powerful (to the point of all-powerful)
• Good (to the point of perfect good)

No human religion, no concept of God that I can think of, can possibly allow all of the above to be simultaneously true – something has to give. Maybe God isn’t good after all, or maybe not so wise, or perhaps less powerful. It cannot be that an all-good God, who loves His human creation (all of it), can have inspired one scripture, for one tribe, and let every other tribe in history get it wrong, on their own. How much more likely, then, that He didn’t even inspire the one – that it, and all others, are simply the works of human beings, guessing in the dark? And yes, that includes the atheists, who must also conceive of a deity if they are not going to believe in it.

That, and all the other trains of reasoning that all of the above leads to, is the subject of my discussion.

Why have you built a platform within yourself that any single concept of God has to allow "all of the above simultaneously true"?

 

[Nimos]

ok,
but look when I carry dirt into the church... can I blame the church for not cleaning it?
Why should there be a someone constantly tidying up when I mess up?

Similarly, when people invent myths about God, why does he have to constantly set things straight here on earth, according to you? Is he like a cleaner? Is he your cleaner perhaps or anything in this direction?

I believe the Bible has things right, though. Even if it started off as a history between God and one tribe.

Surely you can blame the church for not cleaning, it's a church which is open to the public so they can come visit them. Besides that, at least in Denmark the church is funded by the public.

Whether it's dirt or not, ask yourself if you don't expect those working for the church to also maintain them, so they don't come crashing down on people's head while they are in there, forcing all believers to pray to God before even going in there?

To me there is not really a huge difference, if the church want to offer such service to people or God want to be the creator and an all loving being, then they have a responsibility. If they don't want to take that upon themselves then they should not be allowed or if talking God, then he is irresponsible and not worthy of such things.

Besides that, don't know if you have watched the video? But if you have and you are a christian, do you think that the christian God would send the atheist straight to heaven or save him as he does in the video? Because if you do agree, then clearly being a christian or a muslim for that matter, is the worse position you can take, as you apparently gets saved if you are an atheist and simply admit that you do not believe in these teachings.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Why have you built a platform within yourself that any single concept of God has to allow "all of the above simultaneously true"?

The concept of God that I use is the one given me by the Abrahamic religions -- the triple-O kind, you know Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnibenevolent. I didn't invent that that, the religions of some 4 billions of humans did. The first list are things that ARE true, that have happened, that are the realities of the world presumably created and managed by this deity.

I simply contend that a Triple-O deity is inconsistent with our reality,

Let me give you an example of how so many Muslims and Christians make claims that I find simply wrong: I am told that "God gives us free will to believe or not believe, and to accept His laws or not." Have you heard anything like that? But notice what I said earlier: nearly all children grow up believing what their parents believed. Have you noticed that, too? Well, that is as it should be: children, in order to survive, have an absolute need to believe their parents -- and even the religions mentioned tell us that children should honour and obey their parents, too. So where did the "free will" of those children go?

 

[PruePhillip]

The problem is christians think it's "common sense" and we just look outside and "know" it's their creator and poof have an awakening experience that their book is "the" book. That's why there is more resistance. Judgement, by nature, isn't meant for multiple perspectives of truth just the one that fits that criteria of right judgement.

Love isn't an action. The muslim and christian can believe in love, forgiveness, humility, and they sure seeked god and gained wisdom. However, if it's not about belief then the athiest would be saved just as the muslim and christian if all three of their behaviors was pleasing to god regardless their convictions.

Science doesn't prove the spiritual nature of the bible and definitely doesn't prove anything miraculous. Why do christians feel they are "special"?

Why can't christians just be happy that people are not lost, searching, rejecting, so have you and just don't believe in "their" god?

Why is it all about them?

One of the hardest things for the modern Western mind is to contemplate alternate religions.
And that somehow the Buddhist Tripitaka is equivalent to the bible, and somehow the warlord
Mohammed is equivalent to Jesus. There's logic fallacy in this somewhere.

One thing I admire about the bible is that for many claims it makes it provides a physical or
historical or worldly picture to parallel the claim. Thus God seeks a people to cal His own, a
people small in number who are blessed in doing well and cursed in doing wrong. God has
a sacred place and a symbolic holy city. God has a Promised Land for his people, his
chosen people called out of the Egypt (meaning the world.)
And thus we have the historical account of the Jewish people, blessed and cursed, driving
into exile, a blessing to those who bless them and a curse to those who curse them. Few in
number when in fact their population by now should be enormous. A holy city of Jerusalem,
Brought out of captivity and Babylon and returned to their homeland. Restoring the walls
broken down etc..
And the account of Jesus is not just another 'holy man' or 'wise man' or 'conqueror' or
great writer. Plenty of those around. And many would like to emulate this. But Jesus came
to die for his people, as the bible said he would.
Yesterday reading Daniel again. It speaks of the Romans coming one day to destroy
the temple, Jerusalem and Israel - and even to kill the Messiah, who would die for His
people. You don't get that reading Buddhist etc literature - this is Different.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You don't get that reading Buddhist etc literature - this is Different.

I can't find my message you to. It must have been deleted. But I was saying that I couldn't follow your post because it is choppy. The other point was that every religion has something unique about it that many other religions do not. There are thousands of suttas, so different would be more accurate. It's easier to have a preference in which scripture you want to take in but not so much if one scripture is seen as better than another because of differences (via something it lacks).

I can't remember if I raised other points or not. I think, if it wasn't intentional, sometimes the way posts are presented depends on the computer or mobile device. I'm just guessing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

ok,
but look when I carry dirt into the church... can I blame the church for not cleaning it?
Why should there be a someone constantly tidying up when I mess up?

If there is confusion, fault lies with the person in charge. If that person isn't fixing things, the person above that one is responsible. And we keep doing this until we get to the top or when someone addresses the issue.
When there is a book allegedly holy, allegedly about god, yet there are innumerable known and forgotten translations and interpretations of his book, so much confusion and disagreement, and yet there is nothing to clarify things.

I believe the Bible has things right, though. Even if it started off as a history between God and one tribe.

Jehovah buried the chariot wheels, but he didn't tether the horses, and the chariot of sin rages on in a system he designed.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm only concerned with the God of gods.

Odin? Ra? Zeus? Vishnu?

The One desired by women.

I like the real Thor. Secure and confident, protector of all humanity, and gorgeous hair.

 

[thomas t]

Surely you can blame the church for not cleaning, it's a church which is open to the public so they can come visit them. Besides that, at least in Denmark the church is funded by the public.

Whether it's dirt or not, ask yourself if you don't expect those working for the church to also maintain them, so they don't come crashing down on people's head while they are in there, forcing all believers to pray to God before even going in there?

To me there is not really a huge difference, if the church want to offer such service to people or God want to be the creator and an all loving being, then they have a responsibility. If they don't want to take that upon themselves then they should not be allowed or if talking God, then he is irresponsible and not worthy of such things.

Besides that, don't know if you have watched the video? But if you have and you are a christian, do you think that the christian God would send the atheist straight to heaven or save him as he does in the video? Because if you do agree, then clearly being a christian or a muslim for that matter, is the worse position you can take, as you apparently gets saved if you are an atheist and simply admit that you do not believe in these teachings.

ah ok.
So the church needs to do the cleaning up, yeah. They want to serve.
God is different then, he not everyone's servant, I think.

No of course I did not agree that God sends atheists straight to heaven of course. We can't find that in the Bible.
The author simply ignored all the damage people usually do to the world in general. There's a bill that needs to be paid.

 

[thomas t]

If there is confusion, fault lies with the person in charge. If that person isn't fixing things, the person above that one is responsible. And we keep doing this until we get to the top or when someone addresses the issue.

no confusion that God was responsible for.
It's not his fault.


Kamala Harris did not have to set things straight after Donald Trump invented his birthing theory about her, in my opinion.
Donald Trump inventing lies about her does not imply she is obligated to do anything.
Lies are spread often.

You cannot blame the victims of rumor spreading for not clarifying things any single time a rumor is spread, this would be blame shifting.

I hope I did address your point in the quote. If I didn't, can you explain more clearly what it was that you were trying to tell me, please?

When there is a book allegedly holy, allegedly about god, yet there are innumerable known and forgotten translations and interpretations of his book, so much confusion and disagreement, and yet there is nothing to clarify things.

there is nothing to clarify things, you say?
But there is. It's the Koine Greek version(s) for interpretation matters of the NT and the Hebrew ones for the OT.
These clarify things very well.
Most people aren't Greek or Hebrew scholars. For these we have pages like Biblehub.com that have interlinear versions.
You can check everything.

Jehovah buried the chariot wheels, but he didn't tether the horses, and the chariot of sin rages on in a system he designed.

tether the horses? Do you mean tether man? After all - there is free will.
God designed a world that has free will. His decision.
But don't blame God for sin. That was man's decision.
This is my interpretation of the Garden story and Adam and Eve.

 

[thomas t]

No-one is saved by just believing - contrary to what many churches
teach (James Epistle on this offends many - Luther wanted it removed.)

I consider myself as saved.
But one thing is sure: my works didn't save me.
In my opinion, it was by grace alone.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

no confusion that God was responsible for.
It's not his fault.

The confusion is ambiguous wording, dated language, and the many inconsistencies and contradictions found throughout the Bible. That Jehovah has not cleared up this issues to set us straight means it is his fault if we get his book wrong because he did nothing to ensure we get it right. Ergo Christianity has had hundreds of schisms, still has them going on today, and will always have them happening because Jehovah continues to allow confusion rather than clarifying things.

there is nothing to clarify things, you say?
But there is. It's the Koine Greek version(s) for interpretation matters of the NT and the Hebrew ones for the OT.
These clarify things very well.
Most people aren't Greek or Hebrew scholars. For these we have pages like Biblehub.com that have interlinear versions.
You can check everything.

That solution is not reasonable, practical, or feasible. Jehovah shouldn't expect people to read dead languages, because that only serves to further the confusion because it takes a skill translator to do such a thing (and when they tried putting the Bible in English they failed miserably at translating it).

tether the horses? Do you mean tether man? After all - there is free will.
God designed a world that has free will. His decision.

Free will doesn't exist, and instead of fixing a flawed system he made, Jehovah just put a bandaid on it and left a bunch of apes to figure out ambiguous wording and requires us to believe in stories thar are impossible to believe (being swallowed by a whale or fish--the Bible is inconsistent--and both survive?)

 

[PruePhillip]

I consider myself as saved.
But one thing is sure: my works didn't save me.
In my opinion, it was by grace alone.

That's true, sort of.
Your works cannot save you, but if you refuse the works and live
by people who are not saved then you condemn yourself. God
requires something of us in exchange for His grace.

 

[thomas t]

The confusion is ambiguous wording, dated language, and the many inconsistencies and contradictions found throughout the Bible. That Jehovah has not cleared up this issues to set us straight means it is his fault if we get his book wrong because he did nothing to ensure we get it right. Ergo Christianity has had hundreds of schisms, still has them going on today, and will always have them happening because Jehovah continues to allow confusion rather than clarifying things.

there is not one contradiction or inconsistency found in the Bible, I think.
If you don't like dated language, choose a modern version. In case of conflict over an issue... you need to consult the original versions though. Interliniear translations help to understand the original versions.
Often, it's even enough to compare English versions.
The schisms are not God's fault, since there is no lack of clarity as I see it.

That solution is not reasonable, practical, or feasible. Jehovah shouldn't expect people to read dead languages, because that only serves to further the confusion because it takes a skill translator to do such a thing (and when they tried putting the Bible in English they failed miserably at translating it).

See above for solution (first read a mordern version... and in case of conflict approach the original ones)

Free will doesn't exist, and instead of fixing a flawed system he made, Jehovah just put a bandaid on it and left a bunch of apes to figure out ambiguous wording and requires us to believe in stories thar are impossible to believe (being swallowed by a whale or fish--the Bible is inconsistent--and both survive?)

I disagree: free will does exist, as I see it.
The Bible has good wordings, not an ambiguous one, I think.
So, there is no flawed system that God would need to fix... the system is perfect, as I see it.
I believe the story of Jonah, that you say to be impossible to believe.

 

[thomas t]

That's true, sort of.
Your works cannot save you, but if you refuse the works and live
by people who are not saved then you condemn yourself. God
requires something of us in exchange for His grace.

he demands something of us in exchange for His grace you say? Let Bible decide... Matthew 10:8. Revelation 21:6.
It's different than you think, it seems.

 

[PruePhillip]

there is not one contradiction or inconsistency found in the Bible, I think.
If you don't like dated language, choose a modern version. In case of conflict over an issue... you need to consult the original versions though. Interliniear translations help to understand the original versions.
Often, it's even enough to compare English versions.
The schisms are not God's fault, since there is no lack of clarity as I see it.

See above for solution (first read a mordern version... and in case of conflict approach the original ones)
I disagree: free will does exist, as I see it.
The Bible has good wordings, not an ambiguous one, I think.
So, there is no flawed system that God would need to fix... the system is perfect, as I see it.
I believe the story of Jonah, that you say to be impossible to believe.

Thomas, there ARE ambiguities and 'contradictions' in the bible. I believe most of these are
there for a reason. IMO the bible was written for everyone: it's written for the believer, the
skeptic and the agnostic. It's historic account could have been put there to ensure the bible
would be protected during the long ages when no-one in Israel believed in God.

 

[PruePhillip]

he demands something of us in exchange for His grace you say? Let Bible decide... Matthew 10:8. Revelation 21:6.
It's different than you think, it seems.

Not sure why you quoted me these verses. Something IS required for you to
have the grace of God - first comes belief, then obedience.

 

[thomas t]

Thomas, there ARE ambiguities and 'contradictions' in the bible. I believe most of these are
there for a reason. IMO the bible was written for everyone: it's written for the believer, the
skeptic and the agnostic. It's historic account could have been put there to ensure the bible
would be protected during the long ages when no-one in Israel believed in God.

I stay with my opinion, no contradiction there. There are no contradictions "for a reason". God is powerful, he does not need to resort to contradictions, as I see it.
Contradictions aren't truthful as I see it.

Not sure why you quoted me these verses. Something IS required for you to
have the grace of God - first comes belief, then obedience.

I quoted the passages to show you that grace is given out for free.
For free means for free. Period.
Obedience is something.
When I give someone a gift... and I say "it's for free"... that does not mean I can expect their obedience for it in return, If I say "it's for free" and they accept, it was for free.

Obedience is a good thing though.

 

[PruePhillip]

I stay with my opinion, no contradiction there. There are no contradictions "for a reason". God is powerful, he does not need to resort to contradictions, as I see it.
Contradictions aren't truthful as I see it.

I quoted the passages to show you that grace is given out for free.
For free means for free. Period.
Obedience is something.
When I give someone a gift... and I say "it's for free"... that does not mean I can expect their obedience for it in return, If I say "it's for free" and they accept, it was for free.

Obedience is a good thing though.

People will do this - they will read something and then use it as a Proof Text
Paul wrote - "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.…"

And this is the next verse which is not so popular
"For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in
advance for us to do."

Eph 2:8-10.

Guess which verse is memorized by so many people?
Something is required of you. For some people like Matthew it was to give up everything he had
and go into the Ministry. He was rich. This was what the 'rich man' wouldn't do.
For many people it was more than just their life, it was literally their lives.
There's over one thousand things mentioned in the New Testament that we are required to do.

 

[thomas t]

And this is the next verse which is not so popular
"For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in
advance for us to do."

Eph 2:8-10.

Guess which verse is memorized by so many people?
Something is required of you.

there are some things that are required. Yes.
But these do not earn you your salvation.
It's the same thing when someone gives you a flat to live in.
Every person needs to clean up a little bit. It's required to live in healthy circumstances. You can't just never clean up the room you live in otherwise it won't be hygienic and healthy.

Yet, noone can honestly say they earned the flat they live in by their own works of cleaning it up sometimes.