The Greater Insult

[PruePhillip]

there are some things that are required. Yes.
But these do not earn you your salvation.
It's the same thing when someone gives you a flat to live in.
Every person needs to clean up a little bit. It's required to live in healthy circumstances. You can't just never clean up the room you live in otherwise it won't be hygienic and healthy.

Yet, noone can honestly say they earned the flat they live in by their own works of cleaning it up sometimes.

So you are fine saying if you don't believe, won't obey but still expect the gift of grace unto salvation?

I like what Peter wrote
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same
mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the
rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked
in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein
they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you."

 

[thomas t]

So you are fine saying if you don't believe, won't obey but still expect the gift of grace unto salvation?

I like what Peter wrote
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same
mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the
rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked
in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein
they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you."

even if you have to be obedient after the salvation... the salvation that came before wasn't earned by it.
You cannot earn your way into salvation.
Salvation is a free gift, as I see it. See verses quoted in my posts before. And that was my point only.
Discussing further points would derail the thread I'm afraid. In my opinion, it wasn't intended by the OP to have a debate going such as "can you lose your salvation?" or "once saved always saved!?"....

 

[Shadow Wolf]

there is not one contradiction or inconsistency found in the Bible, I think.

Do you want to stick with this position?
I can go on for days about all the way the Bible contradicts itself.

If you don't like dated language, choose a modern version. In case of conflict over an issue... you need to consult the original versions though.

That's just not a realistic expectation. The original languages, some are dead, some are highly debated, and it's a scholarly and academic intensive endeavor.
Essentially, this is expecting people to do what very few can do.

I disagree: free will does exist, as I see it.

It has never been demonstrated to exist, and whenever it gets tested we find it is limited, constrained, and not free. Our genetics and upbringing alone leave little room for the possibility of a "free will" (and at this point it's so heavily constrained it is impossible to say it's free), and after that we know the brain decides before we are consciously aware of a decision.

The Bible has good wordings, not an ambiguous one, I think.

Have you never read the Bible?

 

[Dave Watchman]

Odin? Ra? Zeus? Vishnu?

God of gods is the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham.

I like the real Thor. Secure and confident, protector of all humanity, and gorgeous hair.

That's great.

But he's fake.

And you're not the woman for Daniel.

This is proof the Bible's true.

Daniel's using symbolism from Revelation.

The One desired by women is Jesus.

A woman is a church.

Think "Bride of Christ".

The Dragon chased the Woman through the Foxe Book Days.

Ask Anna Charboniere, she'll tell you.

Her blood cries out from the ground.

A bad congregation is a harlot.

The triple tyrant; that from these may grow
A hundredfold, who having learnt thy way
Early may fly the Babylonian woe.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

God of gods is the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham.

But I don't acknowledge Abrahams god as anything more than an excuse of a character created by men of monstrous morality.

But he's fake.

Just as fake as Jesus and Jehovah.

Her blood cries out from the ground.

A bad congregation is a harlot.

The triple tyrant; that from these may grow
A hundredfold, who having learnt thy way
Early may fly the Babylonian woe.

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Many times those killings were by Christians carrying out their Biblical responsibilities and duties.

 

[Dave Watchman]

But I don't acknowledge Abrahams god as anything more than an excuse of a character created by men of monstrosity morality.

But you have to acknowledge that the God of gods comes from Daniel 11. So in that context the phrase is referring to the God of the Bible.

Lets see if I can draw you a picture.

"And magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.​

"Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers,

"nor the desire of women,

"nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. - Daniel 11:37

Let Thor get his own prophets and write his own bible.

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Many times those killings were by Christians carrying out their Biblical responsibilities and duties.

In this case the massacre of the Waldenses in 1655 was ordered by the church in Rome.

The young woman being tortured is said to be Anna, daughter of Giovanni Charboniere of La Torre.

This was baked in the cake, 1260 years the Dragon chased the Woman. Until they put the Pope in jail and closed the Vatican down during the French Revolution, Satan used the early Christian Church like a glove to hit the Woman very hard.

Little children were torn from the arms of their mothers, clasped by their tiny feet, and their heads dashed against the rocks; or were held between two soldiers and their quivering limbs torn up by main force.

Their mangled bodies were then thrown on the highways or fields, to be devoured by beasts. The sick and the aged were burned alive in their dwellings.

Some had their hands and arms and legs lopped off, and fire applied to the severed parts to staunch the bleeding and prolong their suffering. Some were flayed alive, some were roasted alive, some disemboweled; or tied to trees in their own orchards, and their hearts cut out.

Some were horribly mutilated, and of others the brains were boiled and eaten by these cannibals. Some were fastened down into the furrows of their own fields, and ploughed into the soil as men plough manure into it. Others were buried alive.

Fathers were marched to death with the heads of their sons suspended round their necks. Parents were compelled to look on while their children were first outraged [raped], then massacred, before being themselves permitted to die.[40]

This massacre became known as the Piedmont Easter. An estimate of some 1,700 Waldensians were slaughtered; the massacre was so brutal it aroused indignation throughout Europe. Protestant rulers in northern Europe offered sanctuary to the remaining Waldensians. Oliver Cromwell, then ruler in England, began petitioning on behalf of the Waldensians; writing letters, raising contributions, calling a general fast in England and threatening to send military forces to the rescue. The massacre prompted John Milton's poem on the Waldenses, "On the Late Massacre in Piedmont".

Waldensians​

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But you have to acknowledge that the God of gods comes from Daniel 11. So in that context the phrase is referring to the God of the Bible.

Who says I have to? I once did. Now I do not.

Ah, yes. Thomas Jefferson. A man who thought the superstitious rabble, silly miracles, and other religious nonsense was such a smear to the character of Jesus that he rewrote the Bible without it.
I think Jesus was a lame moral teacher who really contributed nothing new.

Let Thor get his own prophets and write his own bible.

Well, the Messiah is supposed to end all wars. But I still see those happening.
Thor was tasked with killing all the ice giants. Do you see any ice giants roaming around? Neither do I.

In this case the massacre of the Waldenses in 1655 was ordered by the church in Rome.

Do you just have a fetish for showing nude women who are impaled? Showing it once wasn't even necessary, showing it twice makes me wonder about your character.

This was baked in the cake, 1260 years the Dragon chased the Woman. Until they put the Pope in jail and closed the Vatican down during the French Revolution, Satan used the early Christian Church like a glove to hit the Woman very hard.

And according to some, the early church had it right the church ever since has been mislead by Satan - Satan, by the way, who doesn't even exist as a devil in Judaism.
And Catholicism is not early Christianity. The true early Christians had no political power, had no organized church, practiced underground in the catacombs, and were sometimes fed to the lions. That was the Early Church.
Ever since their practices died out and were assimilated into the mainstream it's been an organized tool, literally becoming Rome and continuing to dominate others. Although some of them had a thing for sticking people on stakes in such a manner. Vlad Dracul III, a 15th century Romanian warlord, was a very fierce Christian, very loyal Christian, fierce defender of the Cross, one of the last of the true Crusaders, and he was so fond of impaling people he gained many nicknames around it, such as Vlad Tsepes (Vlad the Impaler), and known to his Turkish enemies a Kaziklu Bey (The Impaler Prince).
And there were many other heinous cruelties other Christians inflicted upon others in the name of their religion. Burning at the stake was also common, even a legally mandated punishment for a few centuries.

his massacre became known as the Piedmont Easter. An estimate of some 1,700 Waldensians were slaughtered; the massacre was so brutal it aroused indignation throughout Europe. Protestant rulers in northern Europe offered sanctuary to the remaining Waldensians. Oliver Cromwell, then ruler in England, began petitioning on behalf of the Waldensians; writing letters, raising contributions, calling a general fast in England and threatening to send military forces to the rescue. The massacre prompted John Milton's poem on the Waldenses, "On the Late Massacre in Piedmont".

Yup. That those who worship your god found justification in your Bible is basically what the OP is criticizing. Religion being justification for so much of the world's evils and hardships, and it offends god. Those books offend god, according to the OP video. Those teachings offend god. And here you

 

[thomas t]

Have you never read the Bible?

what do you think? I'm a Christian for 19 years now.

Do you want to stick with this position?
I can go on for days about all the way the Bible contradicts itself.

actually, not in this thread. Feel free to open up a new one, please.
One point tp consider please: lets debate three points only. Otherwise the debate gets overwhelming for people with limited time resources.
After we are done with the first three contradictions/ "contradictions"... and if you know even more... open up the next thread with the next three contradictions after please.
Paste me in, in your threads or pm me so I get notified.

That's just not a realistic expectation. The original languages, some are dead, some are highly debated, and it's a scholarly and academic intensive endeavor.
Essentially, this is expecting people to do what very few can do.

that's the way to go though.
90% of all controversy is sorted out through mere comparison of the versions, I think. Every established version, even NIV, is 90% the same with any other version, I'd estimate.
Furthermore, you need to know which version to choose: if you only choose the versions that aim at correctly depicting the origininal as opposed to give people a good read... it's 99% agreement between the versions, I think.
For the rest, ask a pastor or your interlinear versions online.
That's also why there are pastors around, I think. Ask the members of your small group, too.

It has never been demonstrated to exist, and whenever it gets tested we find it is limited, constrained, and not free. Our genetics and upbringing alone leave little room for the possibility of a "free will" (and at this point it's so heavily constrained it is impossible to say it's free), and after that we know the brain decides before we are consciously aware of a decision.

I mean free will for the important things. Of course you are genetically programmed for questions such as prefering milk or juice, I'd guess... but when it comes to stealing yes or no, it's free will, I think.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Who says I have to? I once did. Now I do not.

I do.

Not that you have to accept the God of gods.

But that the phrase: "God of gods", comes from Daniel 11.

So in that context it refers to the God of Daniel (Specifically).

Ah, yes. Thomas Jefferson. A man who thought the superstitious rabble, silly miracles, and other religious nonsense was such a smear to the character of Jesus that he rewrote the Bible without it.
I think Jesus was a lame moral teacher who really contributed nothing new.

You're entitled to your opinion, everyone has one.

But you missed my point.

"Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers,

Who was the "God" of his fathers?

Thomas Jefferson wrote this:

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people
to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another,
and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal
station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a
decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should
declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That
to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving
their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any
Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of
the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,
laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in
such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and
Happiness.

"We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions,

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between
man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his
worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only,
and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the
whole American people which declared that their legislature should
"make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the
free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between
church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the
nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere
satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to
man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in
opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the
common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.

-Thomas Jefferson
President of the United States​

"Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers,

"nor the desire of women,

"nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. - Daniel 11:37

Well, the Messiah is supposed to end all wars. But I still see those happening.

At the appointed time.

Thor was tasked with killing all the ice giants. Do you see any ice giants roaming around? Neither do I.

You got me there.

Your gods seem prone to melting.

Do you just have a fetish for showing nude women who are impaled? Showing it once wasn't even necessary, showing it twice makes me wonder about your character.

Maybe three times a charm?

Anna confirmed with her life that the Dragon chased the Woman through the Foxe Book days of Medieval Europe.

She confirmed Revelation 12.

The Dragon couldn't get baby Jesus. So he focused his attack on Jesus' People, and the Saints were given into his hand for a time, times and half a time (1260 years) from 538 until 1798 when the Pope died in a jail cell.

She also helped to confirm that the Dragon stood on the sand of the sea and the United States is the "earth" who came to the help of the "Woman".

And so it is the same "earth" that the second beast, the Antichrist, will rise from.

And according to some, the early church had it right the church ever since has been mislead by Satan - Satan, by the way, who doesn't even exist as a devil in Judaism.
And Catholicism is not early Christianity. The true early Christians had no political power, had no organized church, practiced underground in the catacombs, and were sometimes fed to the lions. That was the Early Church.
Ever since their practices died out and were assimilated into the mainstream it's been an organized tool, literally becoming Rome and continuing to dominate others. Although some of them had a thing for sticking people on stakes in such a manner. Vlad Dracul III, a 15th century Romanian warlord, was a very fierce Christian, very loyal Christian, fierce defender of the Cross, one of the last of the true Crusaders, and he was so fond of impaling people he gained many nicknames around it, such as Vlad Tsepes (Vlad the Impaler), and known to his Turkish enemies a Kaziklu Bey (The Impaler Prince).
And there were many other heinous cruelties other Christians inflicted upon others in the name of their religion. Burning at the stake was also common, even a legally mandated punishment for a few centuries.

I like that you capatalized "Early Church."

But I think, even now, not everyone who calls themself "christian", is a Christian.

You can identify them by their fruit.

Yup. That those who worship your god found justification in your Bible is basically what the OP is criticizing. Religion being justification for so much of the world's evils and hardships, and it offends god. Those books offend god, according to the OP video. Those teachings offend god. And here you

God can do whatever He wants.

He is Righteous.

He can kill.

He can let Anna Charboniere be martyred.

Because He has the power of resurrection.

He can send an angel to be with her as she dies.

And He can bring her back permanently, in the presence of her enemies.

I'm sure that's not going to be a fun day for them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Thomas Jefferson
President of the United States

Did you not read what I said? Jefferson thought the supernatural and religious stuff in the Bible was such a smear on Jesus he rewrote the Bible so it is free of superstition, miracles, and the dogma.
<i>Jefferson Bible</i>
And guess what? Christians aren't the only ones who acknowledge a creator amd call it god. Deists, of which Jefferson was one, often do that. Christians don't have a monopoly on or exclusive rights to claim the term god or religion as their own everywhere they see it.