The Gospels. Any 'Difficult' verses?

[Deeje]

Really? So verifiable hostoric accounts won't was here, then?

You haven't quoted any OB. We need verification of your observations to make an evaluation of their validity.

No! Mercy before Sacrifice was clearly a call to avoid the Temple and Priesthood's money-go-round .........
That's why JtB and Jesus immersed in water for ext to nothing!

I do not see anything like this revealed in scripture. If you can quote your sources of information we can make a comparison with what they say and what the Bible says. Is that not fair in this discussion?

This is all wibbly wobbly! The money changers were exchanging provincial money for Half and Full Tyrian shekels.... and nothing more.
Jesus was angry at that...... and sacrificial fees, and heuve been pleased about the graven images and Baal head on the coins! Hypocrisy everywhere..... and mammon.

No doubt there was a lot of corruption as Jesus repeatedly referred to it. Jesus drove out the animals that were being sold inside the temple area for profit, angrily telling those men that they were turning God's house into a "robbers den" (Matthew 21:12-13 NASB). He overturned their tables scattering their ill gotten gains. This was no place to make money.

Money Changer — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Totally different. The offering trumpets in the Women's Court received any coinage and was not compulsory

The point was, that money donations in themselves were not looked down upon by Jesus, who himself paid the temple tax.
"In the time of Jesus’ earthly ministry, the Jews paid two drachmas to the temple. When asked whether Jesus complied with this taxation, Peter replied in the affirmative. Later, in discussing the matter, Jesus pointed out that kings do not tax their sons, the sons being part of the royal household for whom tax is collected. However, though being the only-begotten Son of the One worshiped at the temple, Jesus, to avoid giving occasion for stumbling others, saw to it that the tax was paid.—Mt 17:24-27." *

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I would have to disagree... paid clergy started with the Levitical priesthood that received the tithes.

That Levitical priesthood was only temporary and for only one nation. The one nation of ancient (Not modern) Israel.
To me, Jesus did Not set up tithes. Tithes ended with the end of the Constitution of the Mosaic Law. - Romans 10:4
Jesus is head ( priest ) of the Christian congregation - Ephesians 5:23
There is No Christian priesthood class to support.
Spiritually older men (like Paul) are un-paid in the oversight of the congregation. - Acts of the Apostles 18:3

 

[Deeje]

John's disciples had to be baptized again as Christians.

There were no Christians during any part of John's whole life. The word Christian did not exist then.

That isn't what I said. Those baptized with John's baptism who accepted Jesus as Messiah, were required to be baptized again in the name of Jesus Christ.
The two baptisms had entirely different meanings. Baptism wasn't a Jewish thing, yet Jesus himself was baptized. What was his baptism a symbol of in your view OB? It couldn't have been for remission of sins because Jesus didn't have any.

Jesus mentioned it alright....... very cleverly, and also fairly abruptly in his actions.

Where? Show me where any mention is made by Jesus, in the scriptures, about what you have stated.

My perception of what Jesus intended seems to vary from yours...?

It appears as if you have gone off on tangents by relegating the scriptures to a lower place when it comes to discerning the way things were in the first century. This appears to be the divider between what you believe and what I do.

The scriptures have first place for us because we accept all of it as God's word.....when you start picking and choosing, you basically accuse God of either deliberately trying to confuse us, or not being capable of preserving his own word. If the Bible is God's word, then we must accept all of it....or if we don't believe that it is, we can accept none of it, because that is the way God works.....everything is clear cut, with no ambiguity....all things in scripture mesh into one story from Genesis to Revelation.

It isn't the detail that is important so much as the whole picture and what that means for our future....the world's future.

 

[Deeje]

If I am not mistaken, the reason was more than just corruption as you have said but also the fact that they had made it impossible for the nations to participate in the worshipping of God and for prayer (Gentiles). God wanted all nations to know Him

If I may address this point KenS......

Taking the example of the Ethiopian eunuch that Phillip was directed to......in order to engage in worship at the temple in Jerusalem he must have been converted to the Jewish religion and circumcised. (Acts 8:26-38; Exodus 12:48, 49; Leviticus 24:22)

Any person who became a Jewish proselyte had to abide by Jewish law and they were accepted as "brothers". They could worship at the temple and offer sacrifices. There were various courtyards in the temple needing higher degrees of authority to enter.

After cursing the fig tree Mark goes on to write....
Mark 10:15-18:
"They now came to Jerusalem. There he entered the temple and started to throw out those selling and buying in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and he would not let anyone carry a utensil through the temple. 17 He was teaching and saying to them: “Is it not written, ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a cave of robbers.” 18 And the chief priests and the scribes heard it, and they began to seek how to kill him; for they were in fear of him, because all the crowd was astounded at his teaching."

This is where the words of Isaiah were quoted.....which in context it reads:
"As for the foreigners who join themselves to Jehovah to minister to him,
To love the name of Jehovah
And to be his servants,
All those who keep the Sabbath and do not profane it
And who hold fast to my covenant,
7 I will also bring them to my holy mountain
And make them rejoice inside my house of prayer.
Their whole burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar.
For my house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

As we see, God never disallowed "foreigners" from coming to true worship. But the difference here was that Jesus' ministry was devoted exclusively to the Jews because of his promise to Abraham. Places in the Kingdom were promised to his seed first.....the Gentiles though they could become Jewish converts, were added to the Christian congregation later, after the Jews had basically rejected Jesus as any kind of Messiah to them and had him executed.
That is not to say that Jews were no longer welcome, but that they had to acknowledge the one 'who came in the name of Jehovah'.

At Matthew 23:37-39, Jesus said;
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

As a nation, Israel has never acknowledged Jesus as Messiah, though many individuals have, and continue to do so.

 

[oldbadger]

My understanding was that the two main players in the Sanhedrin were the Sadducees and the Pharisees with a couple of independents. Both were main players with the Sadducees as the main force. At least that is what my studies say. (I'm open for correction)

A Pharisee did not have to be born into the priesthood and many did not hold office.
Some were, and did. Flavius Jopsephus is a good example.
I notice that it was Pharisees that tended to do all the criticising up in Galilee...... a long way from the Temple!

The place where they had the money changers was actually the hall for "the nations". Thus the scripture of Is 56:
"for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations".

Jesus was quoting God, not himself, in the verses:-

Mark {11:16} And would not suffer that any man should carry[any] vessel through the temple. {11:17} And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den.... etc

..... and he was picketing the Temple Courts, so he must have had a very large following.

If I am not mistaken, the reason was more than just corruption as you have said but also the fact that they had made it impossible for the nations to participate in the worshipping of God and for prayer (Gentiles). God wanted all nations to know Him

Again... if you have better information... let me know.

I surely think that God was an Israelite God, and the Great Temple a Jewish Temple. Sure, visitors could enter the outer gentile Courts, and Jewish women could enter in further still to the Women's Court, but that Temple was there to gather funds, a % of which Rome took in tribute. Hence Augustus's Great Feast Kidney count back in circa 6AD.

It was all money, and you have seemed to overlook the fact that the Temple coinage showed graven image on reverse along with Caesar's Greek abbreviation KAP, and the head of Baal (not Caesar) on the obverse. In the TEMPLE!! The Priesthood cared for nothing but the near 1/4 ounze of silver head-tax, the exhange fees, the sacrificial fees, etc etc..... I think they took about three tons of silver per great feast! My maths is weak..... circa 400,000 x 0.25 /4 /16 /14 = 111.6 cwts = 5 + tons? of fine silver?

Blimey! What's the scrap value of, say, 925 silver today?
No.... Yeah..... all greedy, hypocritical quislings, and the priesthood care nothing for the old laws that protected the poor. Look what JtB said about them. I reckon that was what Jesus was all about..... The rights of the poor working class Jews.

Personally I think that Christianity and Christian adaptations happened after Jesus was gone, but that's me..... a tatty ol' pagan speaking!

 

[oldbadger]

That isn't what I said. Those baptized with John's baptism who accepted Jesus as Messiah, were required to be baptized again in the name of Jesus Christ.
The two baptisms had entirely different meanings. Baptism wasn't a Jewish thing, yet Jesus himself was baptized. What was his baptism a symbol of in your view OB? It couldn't have been for remission of sins because Jesus didn't have any.

I am a Deist who is a student of the gospels, a Historic Jesus student. I cannot accept the above as you do.
Both Jesus and John were immersing Jews for the remission of sins. Both were absolutely dedicated to offering an alternative to save poor Jewish peasants getting fleeced down in Jerisalem. There was no 'Christ' while Jesus lived..... he never knew of the word. Nor did he know of many names which he is said to have called his disciples by........ He spoke Eastern Aramaic with Galilean accent.

Where? Show me where any mention is made by Jesus, in the scriptures, about what you have stated.

Actions shopwn clearly in his demonstrating;.... and picketing of the Temple two days running.
When trickery of words was attempted upon he asked, 'Show me a coin'. Amazing! What do you think the crowd would have done if they had been told about that coin?
Jesus asked two qurestions, not one. He asked 'Whose head?' and he asked, 'Whose inscription?'

The Priests could answer 'Baals' or they could answer 'Caesar's' because both answers are in fact right.

Please.... the coin was the Temple coin..... threy had enough of them.... tons at any feast!

If you go to 'BING' and enter 'Tyrian Shekel' and search through till you see KP or KAP on the reverse( of those struck after 19BC) to the right of the graven image of the eagle, that is the abbreviation for Caesar ion Grreek, but the obverse is NOT Caesar's head! The bible never said it was!

Oh...... and the bible account is correct...... the priests dared not tell all the truth, and they were utterly amazed at Jesus's cleverness AND his wit. We just lost some of the clout in the story because of lazy ignorant Roman translators who thought of the Denarius.... later translated into penny.

I must go to bed..... must go...

 

[Brickjectivity]

Anyway, what is this about Ol'badger? Are you writing a book?

 

[Thief]

I was taught that Catholic means: universal.
Where is purgatory found in the Bible.
When my Catholic uncle died, the priest said that he was a pious man, but that first masses (even pre-paid masses) would have to said for him to get him out of purgatory.
I wonder how that could be in harmony with Romans 6:7,23 which says the dead are freed, or acquitted, from their sins.
Since the dead are acquitted from their sins by their death, then wouldn't punishing them a second time for sins they have been freed from now be ' double jeopardy ' ?

and it is the contrary quotes that lead me away from Catholicism

Paul wrote more than half of the new testament
and allegedly never met the Carpenter

I lean to the parables and sermons the Carpenter did perform

i suspect the word catholic was coined 300yrs after Jesus
He was intent on correcting a problem among His people
and that led to sending His disciples in every direction
the people closest to Him didn't seem to understand

So then the Church had to sort through all the script that was up and coming
and make a declaration.....what would be held in common

 

[Thief]

I am a Deist who is a student of the gospels, a Historic Jesus student. I cannot accept the above as you do.
Both Jesus and John were immersing Jews for the remission of sins. .

there is notation in scripture.....
Jesus did not baptize......but His disciples did

 

[Deeje]

I am a Deist who is a student of the gospels, a Historic Jesus student. I cannot accept the above as you do.
Both Jesus and John were immersing Jews for the remission of sins. Both were absolutely dedicated to offering an alternative to save poor Jewish peasants getting fleeced down in Jerisalem. There was no 'Christ' while Jesus lived..... he never knew of the word. Nor did he know of many names which he is said to have called his disciples by........ He spoke Eastern Aramaic with Galilean accent.

If you provide no sources OB, how can we check your statements?

As has been stated by Thief....
John 4:1-2:
"When the Lord became aware that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John—  although Jesus himself did no baptizing but his disciples did."

Where are you gleaning your information?

 

[Deeje]

Actions shopwn clearly in his demonstrating;.... and picketing of the Temple two days running.
When trickery of words was attempted upon he asked, 'Show me a coin'. Amazing! What do you think the crowd would have done if they had been told about that coin?
Jesus asked two qurestions, not one. He asked 'Whose head?' and he asked, 'Whose inscription?'

The Priests could answer 'Baals' or they could answer 'Caesar's' because both answers are in fact right.

These are the Hebrew currency and weights described in the Hebrew scriptures.

Currency and Weights Used in the Bible | NWT

You can see that some of these coins were Jewish, some were Roman and some were Greek.

Can you show me where in the Bible it says any of what you suggest about the Tyrian shekel?

Please.... the coin was the Temple coin..... they had enough of them.... tons at any feast!

If you go to 'BING' and enter 'Tyrian Shekel' and search through till you see KP or KAP on the reverse( of those struck after 19BC) to the right of the graven image of the eagle, that is the abbreviation for Caesar ion Grreek, but the obverse is NOT Caesar's head! The bible never said it was!

Oh...... and the bible account is correct...... the priests dared not tell all the truth, and they were utterly amazed at Jesus's cleverness AND his wit. We just lost some of the clout in the story because of lazy ignorant Roman translators who thought of the Denarius.... later translated into penny.

I must be dense or something ......if the coin was in common use, why would the crowd be upset by its image and inscription? Who said it was a Tyrian shekel? It was just common Roman currency, like we use today.....who cares what is inscribed on it? Jesus used it to demonstrate that what belongs to Caesar is to be given to him, but what belongs to God must also be given to God. (Romans 13:6-7)

Matthew 22:15-22:
Then the Pharisees went and conspired together in order to trap him in his speech. 16 So they sent their disciples to him, together with party followers of Herod, saying: “Teacher, we know you are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and you do not seek anyone’s favor, for you do not look at the outward appearance of people. 17 Tell us, then, what do you think? Is it lawful to pay head tax to Caesar or not?” 18 But Jesus, knowing their wickedness, said: “Why do you put me to the test, hypocrites? 19 Show me the tax coin.” They brought him a de·narʹi·us. 20 He said to them: “Whose image and inscription is this?” 21 They said: “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them: “Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” 22 When they heard that, they were amazed, and they left him and went away."

According to my sources a "denarius was......"A Roman silver coin that weighed about 3.85 g (0.124 oz t) and hence would have a modern value of 74 cents. It bore a likeness of the head of Caesar and was “the head tax coin” exacted by the Romans from the Jews. (Matthew 22:19-21)" *


"It was at the temple that Jesus Christ on two occasions overturned the tables of the money changers and condemned them for having made the temple into “a house of merchandise” or “a cave of robbers.” (John 2:13-16; Matt 21:12, 13; Mark 11:15-17) This may imply that Jesus regarded the fees of the money changers as exorbitant. In this regard it is noteworthy that there were times when great profits were made on the sale of sacrificial animals. The Mishnah tells of a time when the price for a pair of doves was a golden denar (25 silver denars). This prompted Simeon the son of Gamaliel to declare: “By this Temple! I will not suffer the night to pass by before they cost but a [silver] denar.” On that very day the price was drastically reduced.
—Keritot 1:7 (translated by H. Danby)." *

I am a bit confused by your statements actually.

 

[oldbadger]

there is notation in scripture.....
Jesus did not baptize......but His disciples did

Hi....
Yeah... I know all about that.
We just could not be told that Jesus did such basic acts, could we?

THE CRITERION OF EMBARRASSMENT?

I absolutely and totally believe that Jesus did not consider himself above such a loving and decent action. OK?

 

[oldbadger]

If you provide no sources OB, how can we check your statements?

As has been stated by Thief....
John 4:1-2:
"When the Lord became aware that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John—  although Jesus himself did no baptizing but his disciples did."

Where are you gleaning your information?

Hi......
Look.. Deeje, you insist on sources for JtB's and Jesus's Main Objectives, when the source surrounds you in the synoptic gospels, mainly G-Mark.

And then you quote G-John, whose scattered anecdotes and jumbled timeline, together with late date of writing (100-120AD) and far exaggerated claims do tend to attract Christians beyond the synoptiocs.

But Jesus was baptising, and your own quote proves that, only your quote seems to need to set him above that action?

Apart from the odd interesting pericope I wouldn't trust G-John... I don't believe that any objective researcher could.
'The changing faces of Jesus.....'

I'm sorry...... that's a very twisted source, imo.

 

[oldbadger]

These are the Hebrew currency and weights described in the Hebrew scriptures.

Currency and Weights Used in the Bible | NWT

You can see that some of these coins were Jewish, some were Roman and some were Greek.

Can you show me where in the Bible it says any of what you suggest about the Tyrian shekel?



I must be dense or something ......if the coin was in common use, why would the crowd be upset by its image and inscription? Who said it was a Tyrian shekel? It was just common Roman currency, like we use today.....who cares what is inscribed on it? Jesus used it to demonstrate that what belongs to Caesar is to be given to him, but what belongs to God must also be given to God. (Romans 13:6-7)

Matthew 22:15-22:
Then the Pharisees went and conspired together in order to trap him in his speech. 16 So they sent their disciples to him, together with party followers of Herod, saying: “Teacher, we know you are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and you do not seek anyone’s favor, for you do not look at the outward appearance of people. 17 Tell us, then, what do you think? Is it lawful to pay head tax to Caesar or not?” 18 But Jesus, knowing their wickedness, said: “Why do you put me to the test, hypocrites? 19 Show me the tax coin.” They brought him a de·narʹi·us. 20 He said to them: “Whose image and inscription is this?” 21 They said: “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them: “Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” 22 When they heard that, they were amazed, and they left him and went away."

According to my sources a "denarius was......"A Roman silver coin that weighed about 3.85 g (0.124 oz t) and hence would have a modern value of 74 cents. It bore a likeness of the head of Caesar and was “the head tax coin” exacted by the Romans from the Jews. (Matthew 22:19-21)" *


"It was at the temple that Jesus Christ on two occasions overturned the tables of the money changers and condemned them for having made the temple into “a house of merchandise” or “a cave of robbers.” (John 2:13-16; Matt 21:12, 13; Mark 11:15-17) This may imply that Jesus regarded the fees of the money changers as exorbitant. In this regard it is noteworthy that there were times when great profits were made on the sale of sacrificial animals. The Mishnah tells of a time when the price for a pair of doves was a golden denar (25 silver denars). This prompted Simeon the son of Gamaliel to declare: “By this Temple! I will not suffer the night to pass by before they cost but a [silver] denar.” On that very day the price was drastically reduced.
—Keritot 1:7 (translated by H. Danby)." *

I am a bit confused by your statements actually.

I am confused as to why you could not know about such important details.... honestly.

I thought that you said that you do accept verifiable sources? Verifiable for you might be different to, say, numismatic or anciient historians?

Let's start with the bible. EXODUS 30:13.... this they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary......

Now, No denarii were used to pay Temple Head Tax!
Denarii were no good on the Temple!
Only a Tyrian Half-Shekel (actually about twice the weight of a denarius) was any good.
That's why there were money-change dealers in the temple.
See? It clicks together. But some Roman translator probably thought that Romans would identify with denarius better, and so folks who believe that every word in thre bible is the divine word of God were sent far astray.

WOW! This is a typical example of a difficult verse.
Ex 30:13 compared against Matthew 22:19 Only one can be right. Oh my goodness!

These Tyrian shekels and half shekels were trusted for weight and purity, and used for hundreds of years before Jesus's time. But in 19BC King Herod (or the Romans) closed the mint and Herod established a mint near Jerusalem to strike the same coin for Temple use. The strike was imperfect but the weight and silver purity was consistent.
These new strikes included Caesar's initials on the reverse, but the head on the obverse was that of Melgarth-Heracles. Baal to the Jews.

You were surprised that the people would have been furious about that coin showing Baal's features, or an eagle's graven image in the Lords Temple. Yes?

Would you put up a graven image, or Baal's picture, in your Kingdom Halls? Do you think that might cause trouble?

 

[viole]

Since Jesus as the son of God was resurrected as a spirit, defying gravity was not a problem for him. The miraculous gifts were bestowed on sinful humans enabling them to perform miracles. Jesus was giving Peter a demonstration of what faith can accomplish.....as soon as he gave way to doubt, he sank like a stone. Of course it was literal. Why wouldn't it be?

If that is what faith can accomplish, and assuming that you have faith.. can you walk on water?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kenny]

A Pharisee did not have to be born into the priesthood and many did not hold office.
Some were, and did. Flavius Jopsephus is a good example.
I notice that it was Pharisees that tended to do all the criticising up in Galilee...... a long way from the Temple!

agreed

Jesus was quoting God, not himself, in the verses:-
Mark {11:16} And would not suffer that any man should carry[any] vessel through the temple. {11:17} And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den.... etc

Correct... he was quoting Isaiah 56:7

It was all money, and you have seemed to overlook the fact that the Temple coinage showed graven image on reverse along with Caesar's Greek abbreviation KAP, and the head of Baal (not Caesar) on the obverse. In the TEMPLE!! The Priesthood cared for nothing but the near 1/4 ounze of silver head-tax, the exhange fees, the sacrificial fees, etc etc..... I think they took about three tons of silver per great feast! My maths is weak..... circa 400,000 x 0.25 /4 /16 /14 = 111.6 cwts = 5 + tons? of fine silver?

Blimey! What's the scrap value of, say, 925 silver today?
No.... Yeah..... all greedy, hypocritical quislings, and the priesthood care nothing for the old laws that protected the poor. Look what JtB said about them. I reckon that was what Jesus was all about..... The rights of the poor working class Jews.

Personally I think that Christianity and Christian adaptations happened after Jesus was gone, but that's me..... a tatty ol' pagan speaking

I know that it was money too... but, as the mission of Jesus was to seek and to save those who were lost, I believe the location was also important.

Do you have a site that I could connect to about the Temple coinage?

 

[oldbadger]

Do you have a site that I could connect to about the Temple coinage?

I gathered the info from multiple sites.
Firstly, read Exodus 30.13, which will give foundation to the Tyrian Skel and half-shekel.
Then enter Tyrian Shekel into Google and browse the vaious sites. An Australian Numismatic site is very good.

In the same research bracket, search for 'Kidney count census augustus' and seek out articles about that count because it gave Rome an idea of what it could expect to receive from Temple takings in a special tribute. The numbers of visitos during major feasts will then be found...... huge!

Then you can calculate the value of head tax takings in a feast, and guesstimate the exchange fees and sacrificial fees. Huge!

John the Baptist short-circuited the whole rotten business.

 

[Deeje]

Hi......
Look.. Deeje, you insist on sources for JtB's and Jesus's Main Objectives, when the source surrounds you in the synoptic gospels, mainly G-Mark.

And then you quote G-John, whose scattered anecdotes and jumbled timeline, together with late date of writing (100-120AD) and far exaggerated claims do tend to attract Christians beyond the synoptiocs.

But Jesus was baptising, and your own quote proves that, only your quote seems to need to set him above that action?

Apart from the odd interesting pericope I wouldn't trust G-John... I don't believe that any objective researcher could.
'The changing faces of Jesus.....'

I'm sorry...... that's a very twisted source, imo.

So here we have the main difference between you and me in this issue. I can't pick and choose which parts of the Bible I believe are true and which are not. Is the word of God, just the word of man? Does God permit his word or its message to be corrupted? I can't understand why he would. Can you?

Does the Creator not have the power to regulate, not only his word, but also the translation of it. I don't think having the synoptic gospels to compare is accidental. It is one story told through the eyes of different men. IMO, if you compare them, you find things they all have in common, and things that they as individuals, saw fit to record that the others didn't. One would expect this as any comparative testimony of witnesses in a courtroom to an event, will verify.
Those who write biographies, have their information from a reliable source if the person they are writing about gives them the information.

How much of the Greek scriptures do you reject OB? If you rule out John and Paul, what do you have left? Do you really have a valid reason to reject their contribution?
How powerful is God according to your understanding? Your portrayal of Israel's God is one who creates confusion and seems to sit back and watch the bun fight he created....

What is God up to in your view? Who was the "historic Jesus" and what was the purpose of his ministry and the significance of his death?
Do you have a big picture? I would be interested to hear what it is.

 

[Deeje]

If that is what faith can accomplish, and assuming that you have faith.. can you walk on water?

Ciao

- viole

Since I have received no ability to defy gravity, no...I can't walk on water. Jesus was talking about the power of faith to move mountains. There are mountainous obstacles in this life that faith can help us overcome. I can verify that this is true from my own personal experience.

Jesus himself used boats to travel on water, so walking on water wasn't something he practiced on a regular basis.

 

[oldbadger]

So here we have the main difference between you and me in this issue. I can't pick and choose which parts of the Bible I believe are true and which are not.

Well you can in any book, newspaper, statement, Bill, Act or affidavit, it just requires an objective scrutiny, free of agenda or prejudice. I do not have an agenda....... I am neither extreme atheist nor fundamental believer.

Is the word of God, just the word of man? Does God permit his word or its message to be corrupted? I can't understand why he would. Can you?

I am a Deist. The bible was written by mankind, but if it was ordained by God then contentions such as Exodus 30:13 and Matthew's denarius need to be honestly evaluated, alongside of all the other contentions. Maybe a thread to list several might be in order?

Does the Creator not have the power to regulate, not only his word, but also the translation of it. I don't think having the synoptic gospels to compare is accidental.

Is this what you fall back upon when error or contention is shown to you? If a source from bible is requested, and when error is shown clear as day..... it might be time to re-evaluate such a position as 'the bible is unerring' The bible IS and DOES err, especially the Christian edits, exaggerations, manipulations and occasional outright fibs which make it so hard for a student of historical Jesus to come at the truth!

It is one story told through the eyes of different men.

So it wasn't guided unerringly by God then?

IMO, if you compare them, you find things they all have in common, and things that they as individuals, saw fit to record that the others didn't. One would expect this as any comparative testimony of witnesses in a courtroom to an event, will verify.

Some witnesses in those Court Cases that you refer to PERJURE themselves, Deeje, and Perversion of the Course of Justice was my bread-and-butter to seek out when I worked as a commercial detective. I find it and suspect it here and there, in the bivble, mainly some New Testament accounts.

Those who write biographies, have their information from a reliable source if the person they are writing about gives them the information.

Biographies are SUBJECTIVE. Readers who knew the person(s) in the biography often feel the need to write their own accounts, such is their anger. I often feel that G-Mark might have been such an account, before Christians fiddled with even that.

How much of the Greek scriptures do you reject OB? If you rule out John and Paul, what do you have left? Do you really have a valid reason to reject their contribution?

I am not a student of Greek literature, culture or Gods.
Paul built a religion up with others. It's a different subject to Jesus.

How powerful is God according to your understanding? Your portrayal of Israel's God is one who creates confusion and seems to sit back and watch the bun fight he created....

Israel's God was quite beautiful. The 613 were perfect, back in the day.

What is God up to in your view? Who was the "historic Jesus" and what was the purpose of his ministry and the significance of his death?

He didn't have a ministry..... he lead a mission for his beloved working folks.

Do you have a big picture? I would be interested to hear what it is.

I am a Deist. The picture is vast. Beyond Universal