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The God wars

Student of X

Paradigm Shifter
The God Wars

"Two atheists - John Gray and Alain de Botton - and two agnostics - Nassim Nicholas Taleb and I - meet for dinner at a Greek restaurant in Bayswater, London. The talk is genial, friendly and then, suddenly, intense when neo-atheism comes up. Three of us, including both atheists, have suffered abuse at the hands of this cult. Only Taleb seems to have escaped unscathed and this, we conclude, must be because he can do maths and people are afraid of maths."

I thought you guys might like to read and discuss this article.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Should atheists be tolerant of religion? Yes. Do atheists need to realize that there is some good in religion, and that it's not all bad? Yes. Do atheists need to turn atheism into a religion and build a temple/church? Absolutely not. This article also pointed out something that needs to be addressed, and that's fundamentalism within atheism. It's not as prominent as in, say, the Abrahamic religions, but it is there.

Becoming even more confused, Dawkins exclaimed in his response: "Oh, God!"

“Immediately he was out of control, he said, 'Oh, God!'" Warsi recalls, "so even the most self-confessed secular fundamentalist at this moment of need needed to turn to the Almighty. It kind of defeats his own argument that only people who go to church have a faith."

I did find this part, Dawkins expressing frustration, by using a common phrase "oh god", funny, not because he said god, but because someone interpreted that as saying Dawkins was turning to god. That's hilarious.

De Botton finds Dawkins a psychologically troubling figure.

“He has taken a very strange position. He's unusual, in that he came from an elite British Anglican family with all its privileges and then he had this extraordinary career, and now he stands at the head of what can really be called a cult . . . I think what happened was that he has been frightened by the militancy of religious people he has met on his travels and it has driven him to the other side.

This just makes me mad. Too many theists assert that atheists are atheists, not because that's where the evidence leads, but because of some psychological trauma. Theists simply cannot cope with the fact that people can logically and rationally choose to reject the idea of god.

Ultimately, I found the article to be a theist's tripe on atheism in general. It points out a few things, but ultimately it fails by basically trying to classify atheism as a mental disorder. Theists will pick apart every tiny detail they can, from the lives of atheists, talks and lectures of scientists, everywhere, to attempt to put the nail in the coffin of atheism. Their psyches are shattered to the point where it's impossible for them to understand that it is not only reasonable, but allowable, to reject their religion. I've heard it said, and it's true, that faith is only an opinion, and it's no better or more valuable than the opinion of an atheist.

In the end, there will always be religion, and there will always be atheism. The point, to me, is not the destruction of one in favor of the other, but mutual understanding of each other, and each group recognizing the rights of the other to exist and have, and share, their views.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
This just makes me mad. Too many theists assert that atheists are atheists, not because that's where the evidence leads, but because of some psychological trauma. Theists simply cannot cope with the fact that people can logically and rationally choose to reject the idea of god.

That's pretty much all I have in reply to his article.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Should atheists be tolerant of religion? Yes.Do atheists need to realize that there is some good in religion, and that it's not all bad? Yes.

i haven't read the article as of yet but i first wanted to respond to this...

turn it around, and then maybe we wouldn't be facing such animosity.

should the religious be tolerant of atheists? :yes:

do the religious need to realize that there is good in atheism? :yes:
 
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The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
i haven't read the article as of yet but i first wanted to respond to this...

turn it around, and then maybe we wouldn't be facing such animosity.

should the religious be tolerant of atheists? :yes:

do the religious need to realize that there is good in atheism? :yes:

Who said opposite?
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
i haven't read the article as of yet but i first wanted to respond to this...

turn it around, and then maybe we wouldn't be facing such animosity.

should the religious be tolerant of atheists? :yes:

do the religious need to realize that there is good in atheism? :yes:

I absolutely agree with this whole-heartedly. You'll hear no rejection from me on this.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Ah the great dangers of "secularism" again ... An idea invented, ironically, to try to slow the rate at which followers of various conflicting religions were killing each other.

And all they do is complain about it.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
This just makes me mad. Too many theists assert that atheists are atheists, not because that's where the evidence leads, but because of some psychological trauma. Theists simply cannot cope with the fact that people can logically and rationally choose to reject the idea of god.
I am an atheist who actually does see logic in the claim. talking to many atheists on line is still talking to people who live on some level of Christian thinking.
I don't personally believe in anything supernatural. but many 'new' atheists are arguing from a place of frustration, not a place of education about world religion. its nearly impossible for them to see religion in cultural or naturalistic terms.
if I had a shekel for every time a 'new' atheist takes world scriptures out of context I'd be probably be as much rich if I had a shekel for every time evangelists takes the scriptures out of context.
Dawkins is a gifted biologist. his field of scholarship is not classical times, the fist century Mediterranean, or early Christianity, he is a biologists, he deals with much much longer non historical time spans. its hard for me to find his theological debates enlightening, because they are not informative as his biology books.
really, arguing with many on line self proclaimed atheists is not much different from all the literal Christians I debates through years before that. these people are de facto still thinking like Christians.
 
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Adso

Member
I did find this part, Dawkins expressing frustration, by using a common phrase "oh god", funny, not because he said god, but because someone interpreted that as saying Dawkins was turning to god. That's hilarious.

It was quite a stretch for Warsi to go that far, but it is kind of funny; the world's most prominent militant atheists tripping over his words and having a brain fart and then saying "oh, God"... Come on, it's a little funny.

This just makes me mad. Too many theists assert that atheists are atheists, not because that's where the evidence leads, but because of some psychological trauma. Theists simply cannot cope with the fact that people can logically and rationally choose to reject the idea of god.
You know, exchange "atheist" with "theist" and you can pretty much understand the position that theists feel they are in. Irritating, isn't it?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It was quite a stretch for Warsi to go that far, but it is kind of funny; the world's most prominent militant atheists tripping over his words and having a brain fart and then saying "oh, God"... Come on, it's a little funny.
I think it's funny that Warsi takes sacrilege (mild sacrilege, but still) as a sign of underlying theism. ;)
 
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