The global flood: The sorting of fossils and sediments

[javajo]

"The idea of continental mobility has developed through three stages: cataclysmic theories; the concept of drift of individual continents; and plate tectonics."

Plate tectonics was proven by the navy in 1960 when they mapped the ocean floor and by Global positioning satellites now, we can measure the speed of them and even height.

I would say the geology of the earth is very important in understanding the fossil record for a lot of reasons.

Thanks, do you think there could have been a period of time where they moved much faster due to cataclysmic events? Its a theory I read but I don't know if they are still exploring it anymore as the book was 20 yrs. old.

 

[shawn001]

Thanks, do you think there could have been a period of time where they moved much faster due to cataclysmic events? Its a theory I read but I don't know if they are still exploring it anymore as the book was 20 yrs. old.

There have been cataclysmic events of volcanoes and such, but our modern understanding of Plate tectonics is very good and we measure the movements of the plates by GPS.

The amount of tectonic plate movement is measured using Global Positioning System (GPS) satellites and a network of GPS receivers. This technology allows scientists to measure plate movements as small as a few millimeters per year.

Science On the Leading Edge | Measuring Plate Movements

Every 400 million years the continents come together, the next one will be superpangea. But we have had Rodina and Pangea to name a few.

New York use to be in the middle of Pangea.

The Philippines will be in the middle of the superpangea.

The Appalachia Mts are some of the oldests on earth and the Himalayan mountains some of the newest. The Himalaya mountains formed as the Indian continent slammed into Asia.

This is one reason why we find fossils on top of the Andes or in the middle of Arizona or even the Himalayan mountains at 20,000 feet, not because of a global flood, but because they were carry with the rocks to high altitudes.

 

[Agnostic75]

Sorry, I'm not much of a science enthusiast, so I didn't read all that. I was interested in the plate tectonics ideas and whether it is possible that they moved faster due to cataclysmic events. I don't know if they abandoned that idea or not. Just something I was reading.

My position is that there is lots of evidence, some of which I have posted, that shows that a global flood could not have accounted for the ways that fossils and sediments are sorted. You can discuss plate tectonics all that you like, but the sorting of fossils and sediments reasonably proves that a global flood did not occur, and that the Bible is not inerrant. Inerrancy is my main interest, the global flood is simply one of many ways to reasonably prove that the Bible is not inerrant. I will soon start a new thread on the young earth theory. That involves physics, so brush up on your physics.

 

[Agnostic75]

Message to javajo: Since you cannot explain a great deal of evidence that shows that a global flood cannot account for the ways that fossils and sediments are sorted, you are not in a position to claim that geology supports the claim that the Bible is inerrant. The evidence of the sorting of fossils and sediments is so conclusive that even many conservative Christian geologists, including Glenn Morton, and Davis Young, know that a global flood did not occur.

 

[javajo]

There have been cataclysmic events of volcanoes and such, but our modern understanding of Plate tectonics is very good and we measure the movements of the plates by GPS.

The amount of tectonic plate movement is measured using Global Positioning System (GPS) satellites and a network of GPS receivers. This technology allows scientists to measure plate movements as small as a few millimeters per year.

Science On the Leading Edge | Measuring Plate Movements

Every 400 million years the continents come together, the next one will be superpangea. But we have had Rodina and Pangea to name a few.

New York use to be in the middle of Pangea.

The Philippines will be in the middle of the superpangea.

The Appalachia Mts are some of the oldests on earth and the Himalayan mountains some of the newest. The Himalaya mountains formed as the Indian continent slammed into Asia.

This is one reason why we find fossils on top of the Andes or in the middle of Arizona or even the Himalayan mountains at 20,000 feet, not because of a global flood, but because they were carry with the rocks to high altitudes.

Thanks for your reply. Such a fascinating subject.

My position is that there is lots of evidence, some of which I have posted, that shows that a global flood could not have accounted for the ways that fossils and sediments are sorted. You can discuss plate tectonics all that you like, but the sorting of fossils and sediments reasonably proves that a global flood did not occur, and that the Bible is not inerrant. Inerrancy is my main interest, the global flood is simply one of many ways to reasonably prove that the Bible is not inerrant. I will soon start a new thread on the young earth theory. That involves physics, so brush up on your physics.

Well, I'm not a scientist so I won't argue with you. I believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead for crying out loud! I have my own thoughts about the Flood and the Bible and while it isn't in the realm of 'science', I do have some ideas on that, but I'll let the experts discuss 'science'. I'm more of a theologian than a scientist, and not much of that either. Like I said, I believe a man rose from the dead and with God anything is possible, so your scientific 'proofs' fall on deaf ears.

 

[shawn001]

Plate tectonics helps us understand why some fossils are where we find them. It also shows there was no global flood. People who subscribe to a global flood have pointed to fossils on top of Mts as proof there was a global flood, but its because of plate tectonics, not the flood waters were that high they cobvered all the MTS.

NO one who believes in a global flood I have ever talked with has ever been able to give me a rough date for when it happened.

We also have from Bible scholars this

WHAT TO NOTICE:

In the first place, it is significant that it is possible to separate the text into two continuous stories like this. And it is even more significant that we can find this throughout the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, also known as the Five Books of Moses. Thus:
The P text here always calls the deity "God" (16 times). The J text always calls the deity by the proper name "YHWH" (10 times).
The P text uses the word "expired." The J text uses the word "died."
In J, it rains for 40 days and nights, and the water recedes for 40 days. In P, the whole process adds up to a calendar year.
In J, Noah releases a dove. In P, he releases a raven.
P has two of each species of animal, a male and a female. J has 14 (seven pairs) of each species of the pure animals (animals that may be sacrificed) and only two of the animals that are not pure. This is important because J ends the story with Noah making a sacrifice—so he needs more than two of each animal or he would make a species extinct!
P has details of cubits, dates, and ages. J does not.
In J, God is personal and involved: known by a personal name ("YHWH"), personally closing the ark, personally smelling Noah's sacrifice, described as "grieved to his heart." In P, God's name is not yet known ("God," in Hebrew Elohim, is not a name; it is what God is), and there are none of the anthropomorphic descriptions that are found in J.

NOVA | The Bible's Buried Secrets | Who Wrote the Flood Story? | PBS


There is also the eveidence it came from an earlier story 1000's of years earlier called the epic of gilgamesh from the sumerians.

The Epic of Gilgamesh is epic poetry from Mesopotamia
Mesopotamia

Mesopotamia is a toponym for the area of the Tigris–Euphrates river system, largely corresponding to modern-day Iraq, northeastern Syria, southeastern Turkey and southwestern Iran.Widely considered to be the cradle of civilization, Bronze Age Mesopotamia included Sumer and the... and is among the earliest known works of literature
Ancient literature
The history of literature begins with the history of writing, in Bronze Age Mesopotamia and Ancient Egypt.Writing develops out of proto-literate sign systems by the 30th century BC, although the oldest literary texts that have come down to us are several centuries younger, dating to the 27th or...

. Scholars believe that it originated as a series of Sumer
Sumer
Sumer was a civilization and historical region in southern Mesopotamia, modern Iraq during the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age....ian legends and poems about the protagonist of the story, Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh was the fifth king of Uruk, modern day Iraq and Kuwait , placing his reign ca. 2500 BC. According to the Sumerian king list he reigned for 126 years. In the Tummal Inscription, Gilgamesh, and his son Urlugal, rebuilt the sanctuary of the goddess Ninlil, in Tummal, a sacred quarter in her... king of Uruk
Uruk
Uruk was an ancient city of Sumer and later Babylonia, situated east of the present bed of the Euphrates river, on the ancient dry former channel of the Euphrates River, some 30 km east of modern As-Samawah, Al-Muthannā, Iraq.Uruk is eponymous of the..., which were fashioned into a longer Akkadian
Akkadian language

Akkadian is an extinct Semitic language that was spoken in ancient Mesopotamia. The earliest attested Semitic language, it used the cuneiform writing system derived ultimately from ancient Sumerian, an unrelated language isolate... epic much later. The most complete version existing today is preserved on 12 clay tablets from the library collection
Library of Ashurbanipal



of 7th-century BC Assyria
Assyria

Assyria was a Semitic Akkadian kingdom centered on the Upper Tigris river, in northern Mesopotamia , that came to rule regional empires a number of times through history. It was named for its original capital, the ancient city of Assur . Assyria was also sometimes known as Subartun king Ashurbanipal
Ashurbanipal

Ashurbanipal |Ashur]] is creator of an heir"; 685 BCE – c. 627 BCE), also spelled Assurbanipal or Ashshurbanipal, was an Assyrian king, the son of Esarhaddon and the last great king of the Neo-Assyrian Empire...

. It was originally titled He who Saw the Deep (Sha naqba īmuru) or Surpassing All Other Kings (Shūtur eli sharrī)

Epic of Gilgamesh: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article

He released a Raven a Dove and a sparrow.

[FONT=Trebuchet MS,Arial,Helvetica]Comparison of the Babylonian
and Noachian flood stories[/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS,Arial,Helvetica]COMPARISON OF BABYLONIAN AND NOAHIC FLOOD STORIES[/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS,Arial,Helvetica]The Sumnerian city of Ur was also where Abraham came from in the first place.[/FONT]

 

[Agnostic75]

Thanks for your reply. Such a fascinating subject.

Well, I'm not a scientist so I won't argue with you. I believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead for crying out loud! I have my own thoughts about the Flood and the Bible and while it isn't in the realm of 'science', I do have some ideas on that, but I'll let the experts discuss 'science'. I'm more of a theologian than a scientist, and not much of that either. Like I said, I believe a man rose from the dead and with God anything is possible, so your scientific 'proofs' fall on deaf ears.

This is a science forum, not a theology forum. In addition, this thread is specifically about the sorting of fossils and sediments. Therefore, if you wish to discuss theology, please do so at the General Religious Debates forum.

Whatever your theological arguments for the global flood are, there are irrelevant at this forum.

 

[shawn001]

Thanks for your reply. Such a fascinating subject.

Well, I'm not a scientist so I won't argue with you. I believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead for crying out loud! I have my own thoughts about the Flood and the Bible and while it isn't in the realm of 'science', I do have some ideas on that, but I'll let the experts discuss 'science'. I'm more of a theologian than a scientist, and not much of that either. Like I said, I believe a man rose from the dead and with God anything is possible, so your scientific 'proofs' fall on deaf ears.

I am glad you find it fascinating, all sciences are fascinating which is why humans pursue them, to understand the natural world and if there is a god or not how it works. IF there is one which you believe this is how things happened in the natural world. For me the answer is I don't know for sure, as I am agnostic.

I would however be careful with this

" so your scientific 'proofs' fall on deaf ears"

What about Galileo? His scientific 'proofs' fell on deaf ears.

We all advance with the sciences and what we learned.

IF not some religions would still think the earth is fixed on its foundation and everything revolves around the earth as the center of the universe. Or that scarafices make the sun rise, like the Mayans thought, or that a lot of natural events were gods fury like volcanoes and earthquakes and the list goes on.

 

[Agnostic75]

Thanks for your reply. Such a fascinating subject.

And the sorting of fossils and sediments is also a fascinating subject, but not to very many creationists since it provides very good evidence that a global flood did not occur.

 

[shawn001]

And the sorting of fossils and sediments is also a fascinating subject, but not to very many creationists since it provides very good evidence that a global flood did not occur.

Proof it didn't occur and evolution did actually.

 

[outhouse]

the flood story originates from the sumerian version when the Euphrates overflowed in 2900BCE the food is attested. After a 6 day thunderstorm the river overflowed its banks and a man loaded his livestock and possibly family on his barge and was washed out to sea where he landed next to a hill and burned a animal sacrifce.

Thus noahs story was born, the story was handed down through generations and these same people migrated to Israel bring the fable with them to join the melting pot that is the hebrew culture

 

[painted wolf]

the flood story originates from the sumerian version when the Euphrates overflowed in 2900BCE the food is attested. After a 6 day thunderstorm the river overflowed its banks and a man loaded his livestock and possibly family on his barge and was washed out to sea where he landed next to a hill and burned a animal sacrifce.

Thus noahs story was born, the story was handed down through generations and these same people migrated to Israel bring the fable with them to join the melting pot that is the hebrew culture

Source?

wa:do

 

[not nom]

Source?

wa:do

Wikipedia: Epic of Gilgamesh - Relationship to the Bible

 

[painted wolf]

Thanks, do you think there could have been a period of time where they moved much faster due to cataclysmic events? Its a theory I read but I don't know if they are still exploring it anymore as the book was 20 yrs. old.

All the available evidence shows that they chug on at a pretty stately pace. Otherwise we wouldn't get the magnetic banding in the rocks... as the rocks need to cool to record the magnetic field they were exposed to.
We can even tell when the plates changed direction as they bump into each other.

Here is an interesting rebuttal of the Young Earth Model that you may appreciate... it's from an Old Earth Creationist. So, still looking at things from a Christian perspective.
Racing Plate Tectonics Nonsense

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

Wikipedia: Epic of Gilgamesh - Relationship to the Bible

That's evidence that Genesis and the Epic are linked... not evidence that a flood happened at a specific time for a specific duration and that a dude rode it out and was swept out to sea.

wa:do

 

[not nom]

That's evidence that Genesis and the Epic are linked... not evidence that a flood happened at a specific time for a specific duration and that a dude rode it out and was swept out to sea.

wa:do

lol yeah I know, but that's what actually does have a source, and the source is sumeria as well so hey reading the summary on wikipedia it sounds like a much better story, too ^^

never heard of that other claim, other than theories of course, as to why such legends would have been invented... sure there were local floods, but for all we know, the answer might simply be "because they could [make up stories, or at least clone and alter them]". just to be interesting, like birds imitating cell phone noises and car alarms. I used to know a guy like that, he would make up the most hair raising stuff on the spot, it was like a drug for him - sometimes I imagine ancient people to all be like that, full of it and waving their arms, telling tall stories ^^

 

[painted wolf]

lol yeah I know, but that's what actually does have a source, and the source is sumeria as well so hey reading the summary on wikipedia it sounds like a much better story, too ^^

never heard of that other claim, other than theories of course, as to why such legends would have been invented... sure there were local floods, but for all we know, the answer might simply be "because they could [make up stories, or at least clone and alter them]". just to be interesting, like birds imitating cell phone noises and car alarms. I used to know a guy like that, he would make up the most hair raising stuff on the spot, it was like a drug for him - sometimes I imagine ancient people to all be like that, full of it and waving their arms, telling tall stories ^^

Yes, but we don't want people inventing new stories while mocking old ones either.

wa:do

 

[outhouse]

Wikipedia: Epic of Gilgamesh - Relationship to the Bible

your in the right place but not the right story.

The oldest sumerian version gives accurate details.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes, but we don't want people inventing new stories while mocking old ones either.

Excellent.

 

[outhouse]

Source?

wa:do

Analysis of Genesis, Sumerian, and Babylonian flood stories, Noah's Ark, Ararat, etc.


you can explore more then the one page posted by going to the "home" link


The reconstructed legend is this: Ziusudra reigned for ten years as king of Shuruppak, a Sumerian city then on the Euphrates River. Ziusudra's reign was at the end of the Jemdet Nasr period that ended with the flood of 2900 BC. Then as now, river barges were used for transporting cargo on the Euphrates River. This cargo included livestock, beer, wine, textiles, lumber, stone, metals, dried fish, vegetable oil, and other cargo. In June about 2900 BC during the annual inundation of the Euphrates River, the river was at crest stage. A six-day thunderstorm caused the river to rise about 15 cubits (22 feet) higher and overflow the levees. By the time the river began to rise, it was already too late to evacuate to the foothills of the mountains 110 miles away. Ziusudra boarded one the the barges that was already loaded with cargo being transported to market. The runaway barge floated down the Euphrates River into the Persian Gulf and grounded in an estuary at the mouth of the river. After moving to dry land, Ziusudra offered a sacrifice to a Sumerian god on an alter at the top of a temple ziggurat, an artificial hill. Later, story tellers mistranslated the ambiguous word for hill as mountain. The story tellers then erroneously assumed that the nearby barge must have grounded on top of a mountain. Additional details in the reconstructed legend about Ziusudra (Noah) can be found in the Noah's Ark book