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The Gift of Immortality

Neuropteron

Active Member
From experience we know that physically, we need outside energy to keep alive, sustenance, water, oxygen and so forth... even with these necessities, our life span is limited.
The Bible calls this state “enslavement to corruption”.

Since this eventuality is irrefutable, a theory has been put forward to satisfy our inherent desire to keep on living.
This theory is called “the immortality of the soul”.
It states:
1. We possess “somewhere in us” a soul .
2. That soul is immortal.
3. The body is a shell, that will be discarded.

Who started this theory ?
God stated: ...”you will positively die” Gen 3:2
Satan claimed...“you positively will not die”...Gen 3:4
It was said that, this is the first recorded lie in history.

Since man did die, the theory was redefined to say: “the dead are still living” but without the bodie.
Further adjustments were made by Pagan religion, later by Greek philosophers, finally adopted by the Churches of Christendom and elevated as doctrine, in complete disregard of scriptural teachings.

Now..., I will not pretend to know what occurs after death, but I have read what the Bible teaches on this subject.
Fortunately for me, it's not that complicated.
For example:
“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”(Ezekiel 18:4, KJV).
” ... the man came to be a living soul (ne′phesh)...”(Genesis 2:7) [“came to be”, not received]
Animals are souls :
... every living soul [ne′phesh] that moves about, ... according to their kinds, ... ne′phesh is applied to the domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth "as “living souls.” (Ge 1:24).
(Heb., ne′phesh; Gr., psy·khe′ the Scriptures shows “soul” to be a person a being, an animal, or the life that a person has.

One source says:
“In the New Testament, to ‘save one’s soul’ (Mk 8:35) does not mean to save some ‘spiritual’ part of man, as opposed to his ‘body’ (in the Platonic sense) but the whole person …”The Roman Catholic translation, The New American Bible, in its “Glossary of Biblical Theology Terms” (pp. 27, 28),—Edition published by P.J. Kenedy & Sons, New York, 1970.
Another source:
Ne′phesh evidently comes from a root meaning “breathe” and in a literal sense ne′phesh could be rendered as “a breather.” soul = living being, individual, breather, person.(Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros)

What about the ransom sacrifice?
Christians are, or should be, cognisant of the fact that Jesus gave his life so that we can have everlasting life.
If we already possessed and immortal soul, for what purpose did Christ offer his life and die?

“...undeserved kindness might rule through righteousness leading to everlasting life through Jesus Christ...”(Ro 5:21)
“... but now it has been made clearly evident through the manifestation of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, who has abolished death but has shed light upon life and incorruption through the good news” (2 Timothy 1:10)

In view of this, do you think that a theory started by Satan, promoted by Pagan religion and refined by Greek philosopers can give us a more precise idea of what happens after we die than Jesus Christ can?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Turritopsis dohrnii - Wikipedia

Maybe one or all of the thousands of one god creators didnt want the immortal jellyfish in heaven.

a theory has been put forward to satisfy our inherent desire to keep on living.
This theory is called “the immortality of the soul”.
It states:
1. We possess “somewhere in us” a soul .
2. That soul is immortal.
3. The body is a shell, that will be discarded.

That's one giant leap from we need energy to god dun it wiv god magic
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Addressing the OP only, the Lord Jesus is the only one with immortality, and it's his to give to whom he wishes. scripture, 1 Timothy 6:13 "I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;"
1 Timothy 6:14 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;"
1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

the term "ONLY" here means, let's put it in Layman terms, no one else have it.

as for the soul. I will try to make it in clear language as I can, with being synonyms in an example of a computer memory. RAM, and ROM. think of your soul as being RAM memory, once the computer cut off/without power, or for us ... we die, all memory is loos except what's on the hard Drive and in ROM memory. well our spirits is like the ROM memory of the computer, when booted up again... in our case, resurrected, all is restored, but with us all the good is left, because before we died ... in christ our hard drive was washed in the blood of the Lord Jesus. it's all about what's left in memory. just as the thief on the cross, made a compelling statement. and our Lord gave us the answer. Luke 23:42 "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." that word "Remember" says it all. supportive scripture, Malachi 3:16 "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name."
Malachi 3:17 "And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him."

so God is still making up his jewels, for in us is an EARTHEN treasure. and how do we know that God is still making up his treasure of jewels, (the Souls)? for captian Cornelius was added/written to God's Holy hard Drive... I mean his book of remembrance. Acts 10:4 "And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God." that Greek word "memorial" is G3422 μνημόσυνον mnemosunon (mnee-mo-sï '-non) n.
a reminder (memorandum), i.e. record.
[from G3421]
KJV: memorial

a RECORD to REMEMBER, for in Malachi 3:16 the word "remembrance", means,
H2146 זִכרוֹן zikrown (zik-rone') n-m.
a memento (or memorable thing, day or writing).
[from H2142]
KJV: memorial, record.
Root(s): H2142

there it is, memorial in Malachi and in Acts. one might want to make a cross reference of these two verse for future reference.

so the theif was remembered, written in the book/hard drive of life, not forgotten, but is remembered when Christ returns. for even the Lord Jesus himself didn't go to pardise that day, he went to hell to preach to the spirit in prison there. so our soul sleep.... or is unconscious, or inaccessible in this life. for the DEAD KNOWS NOTHING. but the memories are stored for resurrection. and when God bring our spirit/ROM memory with him, the dead in christ rise first. other words when the spirit with the new or change body meets, new life. for the Body without the spirit is ...."DEAD".

hoped this helped.

PICJAG.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Gift of Immortality

I wouldn't consider immortality a gift. It would be a sentence from which there was no escape. Eternity means infinite time. Anything that can happen does happen given infinite time. Evey horrible thing possible. When would you get tired of "life"? A thousand years? A million? A billion? A billion billion? A trillion trillion trillion years? Eventually, you'll want out, but even after that long, one wouldn't have even begun to shorten the time ahead in which to fail.

If we were given the choice of either being immortal, or being mortal and returning to the unconscious state from which we came before birth, and the choice was irreversible, I would choose the latter. The former is far too risky.

Probably not what you wanted to discuss, since I don't believe in gods or devils or souls, the theology of the OP doesn't apply. Perhaps you or others will find this issue interesting.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I wouldn't consider immortality a gift. It would be a sentence from which there was no escape. Eternity means infinite time. Anything that can happen does happen given infinite time. Evey horrible thing possible. When would you get tired of "life"? A thousand years? A million? A billion? A billion billion? A trillion trillion trillion years? Eventually, you'll want out, but even after that long, one wouldn't have even begun to shorten the time ahead in which to fail.

If we were given the choice of either being immortal, or being mortal and returning to the unconscious state from which we came before birth, and the choice was irreversible, I would choose the latter. The former is far too risky.

Probably not what you wanted to discuss, since I don't believe in gods or devils or souls, the theology of the OP doesn't apply. Perhaps you or others will find this issue interesting.


I find it interesting that so many religious discuss immortality without the slightest idea of time.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
We are already immortal when it comes to composition. I think we associate immortality with consciousness and nothing else. Even after 'we' die those atoms are still going to be around good as ever

I mean can anything simply jump out of infinite time and universe?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
We are already immortal when it comes to composition. I think we associate immortality with consciousness and nothing else. Even after 'we' die those atoms are still going to be around good as ever

I mean can anything simply jump out of infinite time and universe?

Hey, that's my line ;-)

I usually give the first law of thermodynamics lecture when immortality or what happens to you atheists when you die comes up
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I see facts. You see folklore.

You have no facts....you have suggestions and assertions. That is scientific folklore to me. You have a belief system, that cannot be proven and you just can’t admit it....
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
From experience we know that physically, we need outside energy to keep alive, sustenance, water, oxygen and so forth... even with these necessities, our life span is limited.
The Bible calls this state “enslavement to corruption”.

Since this eventuality is irrefutable, a theory has been put forward to satisfy our inherent desire to keep on living.
This theory is called “the immortality of the soul”.
It states:
1. We possess “somewhere in us” a soul .
2. That soul is immortal.
3. The body is a shell, that will be discarded.

Who started this theory ?
God stated: ...”you will positively die” Gen 3:2
Satan claimed...“you positively will not die”...Gen 3:4
It was said that, this is the first recorded lie in history.

Since man did die, the theory was redefined to say: “the dead are still living” but without the bodie.
Further adjustments were made by Pagan religion, later by Greek philosophers, finally adopted by the Churches of Christendom and elevated as doctrine, in complete disregard of scriptural teachings.

Now..., I will not pretend to know what occurs after death, but I have read what the Bible teaches on this subject.
Fortunately for me, it's not that complicated.
For example:
“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”(Ezekiel 18:4, KJV).
” ... the man came to be a living soul (ne′phesh)...”(Genesis 2:7) [“came to be”, not received]
Animals are souls :
... every living soul [ne′phesh] that moves about, ... according to their kinds, ... ne′phesh is applied to the domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth "as “living souls.” (Ge 1:24).
(Heb., ne′phesh; Gr., psy·khe′ the Scriptures shows “soul” to be a person a being, an animal, or the life that a person has.

One source says:
“In the New Testament, to ‘save one’s soul’ (Mk 8:35) does not mean to save some ‘spiritual’ part of man, as opposed to his ‘body’ (in the Platonic sense) but the whole person …”The Roman Catholic translation, The New American Bible, in its “Glossary of Biblical Theology Terms” (pp. 27, 28),—Edition published by P.J. Kenedy & Sons, New York, 1970.
Another source:
Ne′phesh evidently comes from a root meaning “breathe” and in a literal sense ne′phesh could be rendered as “a breather.” soul = living being, individual, breather, person.(Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros)

What about the ransom sacrifice?
Christians are, or should be, cognisant of the fact that Jesus gave his life so that we can have everlasting life.
If we already possessed and immortal soul, for what purpose did Christ offer his life and die?

“...undeserved kindness might rule through righteousness leading to everlasting life through Jesus Christ...”(Ro 5:21)
“... but now it has been made clearly evident through the manifestation of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, who has abolished death but has shed light upon life and incorruption through the good news” (2 Timothy 1:10)

In view of this, do you think that a theory started by Satan, promoted by Pagan religion and refined by Greek philosopers can give us a more precise idea of what happens after we die than Jesus Christ can?


If you look for the truth within stories, what are the odds of you Discovering anything?

In reality, we are all Spiritual beings in our true natures. We are placed in our physical bodies after birth when long term memories become possible.

Eternity has purpose. There is always something to do.

Can you not tell the difference between your physical body and who you really are? Find a quiet, dark comfortable room. Close your eyes, sit quietly and focus inward blocking out all the sensory input from this physical world. Say to yourself: It's me.

Discover who you really are.

If you are still having trouble, seek out the very youngest of children. Many can tell the difference. They must be young since this physical world has so much sensory input, it doesn't take long to be seduced into thinking this physical world is all there is.

Discovery is within your grasp.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I see facts. You see folklore.

You have no facts....you have suggestions and assertions. That is scientific folklore to me. You have a belief system, that cannot be proven and you just can’t admit it....

Actually, he does have facts. You are the one with only suggestions and assertions, and you're making them using the fruits of his reason and evidence based belief system. An idea can be called correct if it can be used to predict outcomes. You are correctly predicting that if you type into your computer, people will have access to your words.

Your religious folklore can't do that. It teaches you that you can accomplish that by faith alone: ""Jesus said to him, 'If you can believe? All things are possible for one who believes. '""

I assure you that you will communicate with nobody just by believing or praying. Put it to the test if you like. That's what is meant by folklore.

"You stare into your high definition plasma screen monitor in the comfort of your air conditioned home and in the glow of electric lighting, type into your cordless keyboard, then hit enter, which causes your computer to convert all that visual data into a binary signal that's processed by millions of precise circuits.

"This is then converted to a frequency modulated signal to reach your wireless router where it is then converted to light waves and sent along a large fiber optics cable to be processed by a super computer on a mass server, one of untold numbers of computers interconnected into a powerful network of intercommunicating computers bringing the world and all of its information to your laptop.

"This sends that bit you typed to a satellite orbiting the earth that was put there through the greatest feats of engineering and science, all so it could go back through a similar pathway to make it all the way here to my computer monitor 15,000 miles away from you just so you could express your disappointment in science and say, "Science is all a bunch of man made hogwash.
"- anon.​
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Actually, he does have facts. You are the one with only suggestions and assertions, and you're making them using the fruits of his reason and evidence based belief system. An idea can be called correct if it can be used to predict outcomes. You are correctly predicting that if you type into your computer, people will have access to your words.

Your religious folklore can't do that. It teaches you that you can accomplish that by faith alone: ""Jesus said to him, 'If you can believe? All things are possible for one who believes. '""

I assure you that you will communicate with nobody just by believing or praying. Put it to the test if you like. That's what is meant by folklore.

Interesting reply but what does that have to do with me?

I do not subscribe to the kind of religion you mention here. My form of worship does not pray things away....it asks for help to cope with what the Bible says was going to be happening in what it calls "the time of the end". It has proven to be spot on to date.
All the conditions that it predicted thousands of years ago, are what we are living right now. "The end" that it predicts is also sure to come. You can disbelieve it if you wish.

We do not live in the age of miracles...we live in the age where endurance is required. True and provable science, and technology properly used is our friend....it's the theoretical 'pie in the sky' stuff that they try to pass off as fact, that leads people down the wrong track IMO.

We all know in our heart of hearts, that this life is not the one we were meant to live. You can move to a more peaceful part of the world to avoid what others have to live with day to day, but you can't fix the rot that is undermining our quality of life...our standards of decency....and the niceties that should make humans superior to animals. Animals don't choose their behaviors, they are programmed by instinct, so they have no real moral sense. Evolution gives people permission to act like the animals that they believe they are. Does it excuse them?

Belief that is based on a denial of true science is to be disregarded. But rejecting what science "believes" (but has no real proof for) puts their 'belief system' at odds with mine. That means that I have a choice to make about who I am, and why I am here. As a specifically designed human with qualities and attributes that evolution cannot really explain, I choose to believe that I am not an accident of evolution, but a deliberately created being, originally designed to be a caretaker of this planet and its inhabitants. But look what we have done!

How much has science contributed to the current state of the world? We have brought our kind (and every other one who shares our planet) to the brink of extinction. The Creator has allowed this situation, in order to show us how pathetic we really are, when left to our own devices.....relying on our own wisdom.

I believe that we are about to experience an enormous change in the way humans are governed. The Creator will bring about this change that no human can prevent. If they oppose God's incoming Kingdom, in favor of maintaining failed human rulership, then they will never get to experience what it will mean for the human race to live the life they were created to enjoy.

I for one will welcome this change......but I don't think unbelievers will......Cest la vie....we all have choices.


"You stare into your high definition plasma screen monitor in the comfort of your air conditioned home and in the glow of electric lighting, type into your cordless keyboard, then hit enter, which causes your computer to convert all that visual data into a binary signal that's processed by millions of precise circuits.

"This is then converted to a frequency modulated signal to reach your wireless router where it is then converted to light waves and sent along a large fiber optics cable to be processed by a super computer on a mass server, one of untold numbers of computers interconnected into a powerful network of intercommunicating computers bringing the world and all of its information to your laptop.

"This sends that bit you typed to a satellite orbiting the earth that was put there through the greatest feats of engineering and science, all so it could go back through a similar pathway to make it all the way here to my computer monitor 15,000 miles away from you just so you could express your disappointment in science and say, "Science is all a bunch of man made hogwash.
"- anon.​

So this is meaningless nonsense. Who said we can't use technology to spread the word? It's a very effective means to share information. In person or on the net, people are still presented with the same options. The message is still being delivered.
 
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