The Folly of Atheism

[QuestioningMind]

Thanks! My point exactly. You even added, 'explicitly!' to raise the bar even more.

This is the basic tenet of atheism:

No evidence? No God!

Let me correct that for you...yet AGAIN. NO EVIDENCE? NO LOGICAL REASON TO BELIEVE!

 

[Mudramoksha]

As you sit here purposefully invoking the term "atheist" to mean precisely the "no god" half of your dichotomy. To be a bit more correct, your title should have been: "The Folly of Gnostic Atheism"

You don't know what Gnostic means.

A Gnostic Atheist would believe that, for instance, Yahweh is real but he is not the real god and there is no god that actually created the universe.

That would be an example of actual Gnostic Atheism.


You mean to call it "strong-atheism".

 

[shunyadragon]

Thanks! My point exactly. You even added, 'explicitly!' to raise the bar even more.

This is the basic tenet of atheism:

No evidence? No God!

As in your opening post you persist in misrepresenting the reasons atheist believe as they do.

 

[shunyadragon]

You don't know what Gnostic means.

A Gnostic Atheist would believe that, for instance, Yahweh is real but he is not the real god and there is no god that actually created the universe.

That would be an example of actual Gnostic Atheism.


You mean to call it "strong-atheism".

The bold is a bit confusing.

 

[usfan]

Not quite. For something for which demonstrability is foreign to its nature, there can be no evidence.
Ever.
Things that exist are demonstrable.

Well, i think it is a stretch to claim, 'there can be no evidence!' There can, of course, IF.. this is, indeed, a God made universe, and He is merely obscuring Himself.

Like other mysteries in science and the universe, we may just not have enough data to make an informed conclusion.

Except that No Evidence does NOT equal No God. All it means is NO EVIDENCE and it's that lack of evidence which leads to a lack of belief.

Of course. I was not implying that 'no evidence!' compelled a 'no God!' conclusion, just the obvious 'no God' belief.

Why do you have this need to constantly misrepresent what it is that atheists are saying? .

Nevermind. You say and believe whatever you want.. is it ok with you if i do the same? Not too triggered that i perceive the universe differently?

Let me correct that for you...yet AGAIN. NO EVIDENCE? NO LOGICAL REASON TO BELIEVE!

..whatever..

As in your opening post you persist in misrepresenting the reasons atheist believe as they do.

The outrage! Blasphemy!!

 

[Left Coast]

..whatever..

No, not whatever. You're brushing off a critical distinction. There is a difference between saying "there is no evidence for x, therefore x doesn't exist," and saying, "there is no evidence for x, therefore we have no rational reason to believe x exists, even if it turns out it does."

 

[Willamena]

Well, i think it is a stretch to claim, 'there can be no evidence!' There can, of course, IF.. this is, indeed, a God made universe, and He is merely obscuring Himself.

It is my understanding that God isn't just hiding. And, of course, something "beyond existence" isn't just hiding.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I am always intrigued at the attention given to philosophical beliefs, and the dogmatic confidence some have in those beliefs. Many religious beliefs are examined, criticised, ridiculed & psychoanalyzed in this forum, but not much is given to atheism The title may put some off, but since the 'folly of religion' is a constant topic here on the forum, i thought it only fair to consider the folly of atheism.

And, since there is a disproportionately high number of vocal, proactive atheists here, a light hearted look at atheism should be welcome relief from the seriousness and intensity that some display.

A false dilemma
A false dilemma is a type of informal fallacy in which something is falsely claimed to be an "either/or" situation, when in fact there is at least one additional option. (from wiki)

The dilemma presented is usually like this:

'If you cannot prove God's existence, then He does not exist!'.

Straw Man-- which appears to be your main strategy.

But, there are other possibilities, not just the 'either/or' of this dilemma.

1. God may have reasons, unknown to us, for not presenting a conspicuous presence..

Sure! This "god" is simply evil. Or indifferent. Or? Grossly inept.

Or? "God" is still shagged out from fabricating the Universe, and is still taking a Long Nap.

One thing we know for SURE? If god is real? God cannot possibly be GOOD.

2. God may reveal to some, but leave others wondering..

Grossly Unfair. Sure! Back to my earlier point: God is Evil, or Grossly incompetent, or Asleep, or uncaring or dumb, or any number of other FAILS. But not GOOD-- certainly not GOOD. #2 precludes good.

3. The Majesty and holiness of God may be too much for sinful man to observe, so God waits, to give opportunity to be reconciled..

So we are back to Gross Incompetence, or simply powerlessness-- god is so full of itself, it is incapable of Dialing It Back.

And GOOD remains impossible.

4. Something has blinded the awareness of humans, so they are unable to perceive spiritual reality..

Once more: Gross Incompetence. NOT GOOD.

5. God does not reveal Himself, because He does not exist..

The ONLY choice where EVIL is not included in the outcome.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The existence of God is self-evident from the existence of the universe.

Citation needed. Claim made without even one item of fact.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Because the universe is obviously not the work of a committee.

Argument from incredulity logical fallacy.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Number 1-5 are all addressed in the Bible, I love the Bible's reasons and logic!

Which is why the god of the bible? Is pretty much maliciously evil. Good catch!

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You probably don't care, at least not now, but for the sake of others who might read this....

There are no dire consequences.....when the time comes, everyone will know, then make their own decisions based on that knowledge.

For the vast majority, it will be at their resurrection.

Wait... what? So the bible was... **wrong**?

Well.... who knew? (apart from 3/4 of the planet, that is...)

 

[blü 2]

'God or no God,' is the basic question. Perceptions of the Divine may vary, but not the core belief in a Supreme Spiritual Being.

Since I don't know what real being or thing the word 'God' is intended to denote, I have to read your basic question as 'Imaginary God or no imaginary God?' And the answer is, either or neither or both, whatever you prefer to imagine.

 

[usfan]

The ONLY choice where EVIL is not included in the outcome.

How is there 'Evil!', in a godless universe?

Who or what makes that moral judgment? Science?

 

[usfan]

Since I don't know what real being or thing the word 'God' is intended to denote, I have to read your basic question as 'Imaginary God or no imaginary God?' And the answer is, either or neither or both, whatever you prefer to imagine.

No problem. We're dealing with the abstract.. or at least the mystical, so however you want to look at it is fine. I'm not nearly as obsessed with 'proper definitions!', as the progressives..

 

[usfan]

It is my understanding that God isn't just hiding. And, of course, something "beyond existence" isn't just hiding.

How do you have 'understanding' for a hypothetical?

We just lay out the assumptions and follow the implications.

 

[usfan]

As in your opening post you persist in misrepresenting the reasons atheist believe as they do.

You believe whatever you want. Tweak it, redefine it, dress it up with ribbons and bows..

I can only see, 'atheism = no God'. The complex, deeply mystical undertones, and profound psychological implications for this simple concept, i leave to you.

..it is hardly justification for moral outrage, or some projected nefarious agenda.

What? You think I'm leading you to some conclusive, logical 'Proof of God!!'? I'll trick you into seeing God!!? ..that would be a pretty neat trick..

No need for such paranoia.. I'm a simple existentialist philosopher, not a Prophet.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

How is there 'Evil!', in a godless universe?

Who or what makes that moral judgment? Science?

Humans created the word "Evil". Humans therefore? Get to define what it means.

The fact that you have no clue, without the context of a Cosmic North Korean Dictator?

Says much about you-- none of it positive.

 

[Trailblazer]

If the god character exists why does it hide away instead of putting in an appearance?

I do not think you would like it if God put in an appearance.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

 

[Left Coast]

I do not think you would like it if God put in an appearance.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

Gotta love these contrived issues that are completely, 100% the problem of the all-powerful being who allegedly put us in such an absurd situation.