The Folly of Atheism

[Trailblazer]

If God cannot be explicitly demonstrated, then he doesn't exist.

That is completely illogical.
If God exists, God would be out of human reach so humans could never demonstrate that God exists.
Humans do not have the ability to reach God, so only if God chose to demonstrate Himself could we ever see such a demonstration.

Also, if God is "beyond existence" then he doesn't exist.

Well obviously, but God is not beyond existence, God is just beyond human reach.

 

[Trailblazer]

Gotta love these contrived issues that are completely, 100% the problem of the all-powerful being who allegedly put us in such an absurd situation.

I have no idea what you mean by that.
How did God put us in an absurd situation?

 

[Left Coast]

I have no idea what you mean by that.
How did God put us in an absurd situation?

He created us, didnt he? He created a creation that can't perceive him without being destroyed. Yet he expects that creation to believe in him. That is textbook absurdity. It's almost comical.

 

[usfan]

The fact that you have no clue, without the context of a Cosmic North Korean Dictator?
Says much about you-- none of it positive.

I'm happy to be the scapegoat for your hostility toward God.. i do hope you work that out, though.. good luck..

 

[siti]

5

 

[Trailblazer]

He created us, didnt he? He created a creation that can't perceive him without being destroyed. Yet he expects that creation to believe in him. That is textbook absurdity. It's almost comical.

I guess you did not understand what that passage meant. It meant that if the entire Essence of God showed up on Earth the Light of God would be so bright as to reduce us to utter nothingness.

That is what God does not reveal His Essence, but rather only reveals His Attributes which are perfectly reflected in His Messengers.

We can perceive God without seeing Him.

 

[Trailblazer]

5

That's gotta be the shortest post I have ever seen.

 

[Deeje]

You are describing gnostic atheism i.e the belief that one can know with certainty that God/gods don't exist. I agree that this is folly. However, agnosticism is the most intellectually honest position to take. No one has proven the existence or non-existence of God. Therefore agnosticism is the only rational position.

There is only one problem with agnosticism.....its a fence-sitting position when there is no fence.....sorry. It requires a decision. Jesus said "whoever is not for me, is against me"...seems pretty simple...."I dunno" is obviously not a valid position.

 

[Trailblazer]

No one has proven the existence or non-existence of God. Therefore agnosticism is the only rational position.

You don't need to prove God exists to know God exists, since there is so much evidence....

However, agnosticism is a more rational position than atheism, and it is a respectable position since some people just cannot recognize the evidence for God, obvious as it is.

 

[siti]

There is only one problem with agnosticism.....its a fence-sitting position when there is no fence.....sorry. It requires a decision. Jesus said "whoever is not for me, is against me"...seems pretty simple...."I dunno" is obviously not a valid position.

Place your bets ladies and gentlemen please!

I'm sticking with 5

 

[Trailblazer]

Faith is always based on nothing more substantial than the willingness to belief an insufficiently supported idea. If you have evidence, then you aren't believing by faith.

It would be more accurate to say "If you have proof, then you aren't believing by faith."
Evidence is not proof. There can never be any proof that God exists, but there is a boatload of evidence.
But even though we have a lot of evidence, we have to have "some faith" since we do not have proof.

 

[Trailblazer]

Place your bets ladies and gentlemen please!

I'm sticking with 5

I am voting for 6.
6. God has reasons He made known to us for not presenting a conspicuous presence.

 

[siti]

6. God has reasons He made known to us for not presenting a conspicuous presence.

That's just silly - if you're playing hide and seek, the whole point is you don't tell everyone where you're hiding.

 

[Deeje]

1. God may have reasons, unknown to us, for not presenting a conspicuous presence.

John 1:18....
"No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."
It requires listening to Jesus. His activities and words are recorded in the NT.
On two occasions God's voice was heard approving of the mission he sent his son to carry out. The first time he said "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” But the second time time God added: “Listen to him.”

2. God may reveal to some, but leave others wondering.

John 6:44; 65....
"No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him".
"This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
God only reveals himself to those in whom he sees the kind of qualities that he requires of the citizens of his incoming Kingdom.

3. The Majesty and holiness of God may be too much for sinful man to observe, so God waits, to give opportunity to be reconciled.

2 Corinthians 5:18-20....
"But all things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of the reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was by means of Christ reconciling a world to himself, not counting their offenses against them, and he entrusted to us the message of the reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us. As substitutes for Christ, we beg: “Become reconciled to God.”"
A reconciliation with God was planned all along.....but only with those who sought one.

4. Something has blinded the awareness of humans, so they are unable to perceive spiritual reality.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4...
"If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through."
A blinded mind is robbed of all valid perception because all the senses are processed in the mind.

5. God does not reveal Himself, because He does not exist.

Psalm 14:1-3....
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
2 The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one."
Is this what God sees?

 

[Deeje]

Place your bets ladies and gentlemen please!

I'm sticking with 5

Are you staking your life on that?

 

[Skreeper]

There is only one problem with agnosticism.....its a fence-sitting position when there is no fence.....sorry. It requires a decision. Jesus said "whoever is not for me, is against me"...seems pretty simple...."I dunno" is obviously not a valid position.

"I dunno" is the only valid position when you actually do not know. You can't just make stuff up to fill holes in your knowledge if you don't have evidence.

And Jesus needs to dial down his massive ego if he thinks that people that don't believe he exists are automatically "against" him.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It's pretty simple to me..

Atheism = no God

It can be blinged up with qualifiers, Intellectual sounding terms, or dazzling deflections, but it is still a 'no God' premise.

If that's how you choose to define it, fill your boots. But a lot of atheists don't define it that way, so if you wish to talk to them about their atheism you'll end up talking at cross purposes.

Surely you understand that words can have multiple meanings, and a position is rarely so simple it can be summed up in two words, right?

 

[atanu]

Firstly, most atheists think something along the lines of...
“I can find no evidence for god’s existence therefore I’ll live my life assuming she does not exist”

If it remained that, it would be good. But one can find in this thread that your statement may not apply in general.

 

[Deeje]

"I dunno" is the only valid position when you actually do not know. You can't just make stuff up to fill holes in your knowledge if you don't have evidence.

What evidence do you need that I don't? I didn't have to make anything up. I can see with my own eyes that material creation didn't just pop up out of nowhere and that what exists on earth is too well designed not to have a designer....too well programmed not to have programmer.

You see, the atheists among us just don't get it....and probably never will, because it requires an invitation from the Creator to get to know him in the first place. You guys have already said to God, "we don't need you, and we don't want to have anything to do with you...we'd be happy if you just go away!"......so that's fine, God will never force himself on anyone. He will not invite unbelievers because he doesn't particularly like the company of those who think he's just a figment of a someone's imagination. What would be the point.....? You need evidence? No amount of evidence would convince you anyway. You'd just explain it all away as something "nature" did...all by itself.

What if God is the "natural" explanation for everything....and atheists just don't want to see it?

The undecided are the agnostics.....not convinced one way or another. But so many who identify as agnostics are actually full blown atheists...they don't like to come out and say so, just in case there is a God and he is listening....kind of an each way bet.....except that it doesn't work like that.

God is actually allowing us to choose where we want to spend eternity......with him or not. They are the only two choices. No one is making anything up because its all recorded in a book that has survived for thousands of years despite every attempt to destroy it...the same message for a different audience.

And Jesus needs to dial down his massive ego if he thinks that people that don't believe he exists are automatically "against" him.

Jesus does not have an ego so there is nothing to turn down.
We either qualify for citizenship in the only world there will be in the future....or we forfeit life altogether. Since this is what atheists expect anyway, I do not see God doing them a disservice...do you? He gave us life and allowed us to determine our own future by our own choices. He owes us nothing.....so if you expect nothing then that is what you'll get. How is that not fair?

 

[JJ50]

What evidence do you need that I don't? I didn't have to make anything up. I can see with my own eyes that material creation didn't just pop up out of nowhere and that what exists on earth is too well designed not to have a designer....too well programmed not to have programmer.

You see, the atheists among us just don't get it....and probably never will, because it requires an invitation from the Creator to get to know him in the first place. You guys have already said to God, "we don't need you, and we don't want to have anything to do with you...we'd be happy if you just go away!"......so that's fine, God will never force himself on anyone. He will not invite unbelievers because he doesn't particularly like the company of those who think he's just a figment of a someone's imagination. What would be the point.....? You need evidence? No amount of evidence would convince you anyway. You'd just explain it all away as something "nature" did...all by itself.

What if God is the "natural" explanation for everything....and atheists just don't want to see it?

The undecided are the agnostics.....not convinced one way or another. But so many who identify as agnostics are actually full blown atheists...they don't like to come out and say so, just in case there is a God and he is listening....kind of an each way bet.....except that it doesn't work like that.

God is actually allowing us to choose where we want to spend eternity......with him or not. They are the only two choices. No one is making anything up because its all recorded in a book that has survived for thousands of years despite every attempt to destroy it...the same message for a different audience.



Jesus does not have an ego so there is nothing to turn down.
We either qualify for citizenship in the only world there will be in the future....or we forfeit life altogether. Since this is what atheists expect anyway, I do not see God doing them a disservice...do you? He gave us life and allowed us to determine our own future by our own choices. He owes us nothing.....so if you expect nothing then that is what you'll get. How is that not fair?

More JW cult garbage!