THE Federal Government's human rights arm plans to invent a new official status called "intersex"

[emiliano]

emiliano, methinks you need to educate yourself more about this topic.

I dislike one liner, but I will respond to this one, the topic is clearly set out in the article “A response to the report by Sex and Gender Education Australia says there needs to be a fourth legal gender for people who are not even "intersex".
And this is the problem, the fact that all sorts of other groups are jumping on the wagon, “And transgender lobby groups say that even this does not go far enough and are demanding a fourth legal gender called "other" for people who feel like their gender is indefinable or changes from day to day” Children born with birth defects are separate issues to that of people that choose a bizarre sexual behaviour, yet they are used to inflate the number and dramatise the issue and you get the claim that this affects millions of people and the push continues, the other problem is that and history shows it is that the HR and EOC successes are quickly turned into the creation of disadvantages for other people. Why would people that did not need surgery need this to be published in legal documents? If they are happy with their appearance or simply do not want to have surgery, what’s the need? As far as I know in our country you don’t need to show your privates to confirm that you are male or female when obtaining any legal document, my point is that this commission has more human right and equal opportunities to worry about than this, for starter they have those disadvantages the they created in the social security system, employment opportunities, and education.

 

[Smoke]

And this is the problem, the fact that all sorts of other groups are jumping on the wagon

You must push them off, then. The wagon is only for you and people like you. Jesus hates all sorts of others, and so should Australia.

 

[emiliano]

Who's talking about religion?

The links Inky and I referenced are about intersex individuals. They contain a wealth information regarding the medical and social issues regarding intersex. The videos include interviews with those individuals who are intersex and obtain their opinion regarding genital modification.

How much more on topic could I get by posting information directly related to intersex individuals.

You already admitted that you do not need to consider understanding exactly what is meant by intersex and the legal/social issues involved.

Just count yourself fortunate that you belong to a majority.

I don’t know why is it that you insist in your intellectual dishonesty, you wrote this “For now, I'll wait for someone who actually has an informed opinion on the subject. Till then, you may want to remove the word Christian from your religion for the disservice you do them” that was yesterday when you threat me with withdrawing your wise contributions and you gave me a link to result of prop.8, I am still trying to work out what was the purpose of this. the very next day you come up with this: Who's talking about religion? Are you pretending to be that dull? The truth is that this white paper does not contain a solution to the plight of these people. And as the article clearly shows various other groups want to use them to bring their on agendas back on the public debate, I have asked this, How having this deformities publicly published help them in any way? They can obtain driving licences, they are not discriminate when joining the work force, they are not require to show their privates when stating male or female, Mister or Miss in their applications, so what does having the title of intersex, other, transsexual, gender bender, cross-dresser etc, help them in any way?
What I don't know is how many of the surgical/hormonal therapies result in a mistake, that they were made what it shouldn't be I read that there are some that result in an irreversal mistake, what percentage of them goes wrong? And who is to blame?

 

[emiliano]

You must push them off, then. The wagon is only for you and people like you. Jesus hates all sorts of others, and so should Australia.

Oh God, another one, the thing here is that this is not a solution at all, and the fat cats have to consider the right to privacy of these individuals. This got nothing to do with religion, this got to do with politics and what the government is doing with our taxes, we are already paying for the work of these genius, there are people in Australia that receive bigger social assistance and in fact they managed to create a privileged class, that must get more assistance and a percentage of places in higher education must be guaranteed for them, promotions and employment opportunity are assured to some, they have a weird definition of equality. So we must be careful because these issues can be twisted, perhaps you can tell me, how this help those that are born with these deformities?

 

[gnomon]

I don’t know why is it that you insist in your intellectual dishonesty, you wrote this “For now, I'll wait for someone who actually has an informed opinion on the subject. Till then, you may want to remove the word Christian from your religion for the disservice you do them” that was yesterday when you threat me with withdrawing your wise contributions and you gave me a link to result of prop.8, I am still trying to work out what was the purpose of this. the very next day you come up with this: Who's talking about religion? Are you pretending to be that dull? The truth is that this white paper does not contain a solution to the plight of these people. And as the article clearly shows various other groups want to use them to bring their on agendas back on the public debate, I have asked this, How having this deformities publicly published help them in any way? They can obtain driving licences, they are not discriminate when joining the work force, they are not require to show their privates when stating male or female, Mister or Miss in their applications, so what does having the title of intersex, other, transsexual, gender bender, cross-dresser etc, help them in any way?
What I don't know is how many of the surgical/hormonal therapies result in a mistake, that they were made what it shouldn't be I read that there are some that result in an irreversal mistake, what percentage of them goes wrong? And who is to blame?

While ignoring the posts regarding links to information that would serve of use in this debate that make no mention of either religion or homosexuality. Bravo.

Just read the links that actually address intersex rather than whining about some politicians.

 

[Watchmen]

people that choose a bizarre sexual behaviour.

As I said, methinks you need to educate yourself.

 

[emiliano]

As I said, methinks you need to educate yourself.

One of the many problems that this white paper has is that it has already been seen as inclusive of behavioural choice, intersex are severe genetic defects, homosexuality, lesbianism are not, add to that that what it proposes is not a solution, surgical/hormonal gender normalisation is, not a perfect solution, but the best that medical science can offer at present and as advances in diagnosis and prognosis are been achieved it will reduce the failures even further, parents of children affected by this will be able to give informed consent to such corrections, and that’s where the resources should be directed to, research and treatment, those affected by behavioural choices are in another category, and were abandoned long time ago by the science that could help them.

 

[Watchmen]

One of the many problems that this white paper has is that it has already been seen as inclusive of behavioural choice, intersex are severe genetic defects, homosexuality, lesbianism are not, add to that that what it proposes is not a solution, surgical/hormonal gender normalisation is, not a perfect solution, but the best that medical science can offer at present and as advances in diagnosis and prognosis are been achieved it will reduce the failures even further, parents of children affected by this will be able to give informed consent to such corrections, and that’s where the resources should be directed to, research and treatment, those affected by behavioural choices are in another category, and were abandoned long time ago by the science that could help them.

Like shock-therapy, no doubt.

 

[emiliano]

While ignoring the posts regarding links to information that would serve of use in this debate that make no mention of either religion or homosexuality. Bravo.

Just read the links that actually address intersex rather than whining about some politicians.

What link are you talking about? The result of prop.8? I saw the placards, what can I say? One thing that I noticed is that they are directed to the Mormons as if they were the only ones that are interested in maintaining the sanctity of marriage, should I take it that the majority of Californian are Mormons? Could these protests be bigotry? In Australia the situation is completely different, parents have a right to make decisions for the treatment of their children and as society they seek solutions to the problems even of tiny minorities and as I said the unfortunate treatment failures are not discriminated or persecuted in any way, the aim is to help them, the resources are limited so they must be used wisely and it comes from us all, so we have the right to demand that they are direct to research and treatment, these people must have a fair go, the vast majority of normalisation are successful so all that is needed is more research on the failures.

 

[emiliano]

Like shock-therapy, no doubt.

No psycho-behavioural therapies, ECT is used for chronic depression. Homosexuality is a behaviour and there are treatments for it.
behavioural psychology
n
psychology based on behaviour: a branch of psychology based on the observation and modification of the way that people behave
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

 

[gnomon]

What link are you talking about? The result of prop.8? I saw the placards, what can I say? One thing that I noticed is that they are directed to the Mormons as if they were the only ones that are interested in maintaining the sanctity of marriage, should I take it that the majority of Californian are Mormons? Could these protests be bigotry? In Australia the situation is completely different, parents have a right to make decisions for the treatment of their children and as society they seek solutions to the problems even of tiny minorities and as I said the unfortunate treatment failures are not discriminated or persecuted in any way, the aim is to help them, the resources are limited so they must be used wisely and it comes from us all, so we have the right to demand that they are direct to research and treatment, these people must have a fair go, the vast majority of normalisation are successful so all that is needed is more research on the failures.

Gee, the links from the first page of this thread regarding intersex individuals.

the vast majority of normalisation are successful so all that is needed is more research on the failures.

Who says? You. From your own admission you know nothing about the issue.

 

[Watchmen]

emiliano - you keep referring to the "fat cats," but what exactly is the human rights division of government supposed to do?

 

[Watchmen]

No psycho-behavioural therapies, ECT is used for chronic depression. Homosexuality is a behaviour and there are treatments for it.
behavioural psychology
n
psychology based on behaviour: a branch of psychology based on the observation and modification of the way that people behave
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Further evidence of your need to educate yourself.

Good day.

 

[emiliano]

Gee, the links from the first page of this thread regarding intersex individuals.
Who says? You. From your own admission you know nothing about the issue.

I finally had time to watch two videos, I watched and downloaded the one with the doctor’s spokesman it was instructive and I agree with it, the vast majority of this early intervention are successful. He also point out that what is been used to criticise this procedure is based on old stories, I also watch another video that was from the fifties and sixties, now relating the videos to the to pic “the white paper presented to the Australian government”, tell me how having the title intersex, transsexual or other in legal documents help these people? For example the guy that said the he learnt that in his boyhood, teenage and adulthood to be last in the showers at sport days because the male genitalia that his parent chose and the doctor created. What would his life belike with the genitalia that he was born with?

 

[gnomon]

I finally had time to watch two videos, I watched and downloaded the one with the doctor’s spokesman it was instructive and I agree with it, the vast majority of this early intervention are successful. He also point out that what is been used to criticise this procedure is based on old stories, I also watch another video that was from the fifties and sixties, now relating the videos to the to pic “the white paper presented to the Australian government”, tell me how having the title intersex, transsexual or other in legal documents help these people? For example the guy that said the he learnt that in his boyhood, teenage and adulthood to be last in the showers at sport days because the male genitalia that his parent chose and the doctor created. What would his life belike with the genitalia that he was born with?

Now we are getting somewhere.

The doctor did state that he believed in genital construction at an early age. However, all the individuals in the video stated that their surgeries, some of whom received them at a later stage, would rather have not had the surgeries.

Now some surgeries are required due to certain defects to ensure proper functioning for say, the urinary tract. I don't think these surgeries are being disputed by anyone. It's the cosmetic surgeries to signify male or female that are under debate.

Certain intersex individuals, such as those with androgen insensitivity syndrome, may appear and grow up as clearly female but find on later through some method, such as a DNA test, that they are XY female. This has ramifications in America based on the legal language surrounding marriage and can effect the outcome of inheritance claims among other things.

For example the guy that said the he learnt that in his boyhood, teenage and adulthood to be last in the showers at sport days because the male genitalia that his parent chose and the doctor created. What would his life belike with the genitalia that he was born with?

I think you are referring to the counselor. He also mentioned that he has had a lifetime of surgeries and, as seen in a case of hindsight, claims that he would probably of been better off without any of the surgeries. Who knows? I don't.

Intersex refers to a broad spectrum of human beings. Many of whom feel neither male nor female. Would it be that harmful, if it all, to society to recognize that the so called dichotomous concept of sexual identity does not match reality? We already know that sex and gender are distinctly different.

Another important note. Intersex is not homosexuality, transgenderism or transexualism.

 

[emiliano]

Now we are getting somewhere.

The doctor did state that he believed in genital construction at an early age. However, all the individuals in the video stated that their surgeries, some of whom received them at a later stage, would rather have not had the surgeries.

Now some surgeries are required due to certain defects to ensure proper functioning for say, the urinary tract. I don't think these surgeries are being disputed by anyone. It's the cosmetic surgeries to signify male or female that are under debate.

Certain intersex individuals, such as those with androgen insensitivity syndrome, may appear and grow up as clearly female but find on later through some method, such as a DNA test, that they are XY female. This has ramifications in America based on the legal language surrounding marriage and can effect the outcome of inheritance claims among other things.
I think you are referring to the counselor. He also mentioned that he has had a lifetime of surgeries and, as seen in a case of hindsight, claims that he would probably of been better off without any of the surgeries. Who knows? I don't.

Intersex refers to a broad spectrum of human beings. Many of whom feel neither male nor female. Would it be that harmful, if it all, to society to recognize that the so called dichotomous concept of sexual identity does not match reality? We already know that sex and gender are distinctly different.
Another important note. Intersex is not homosexuality, transgenderism or transexualism.

Yes we are, now isn’t this what I have been telling you, I don’t know the percentage of failures, a ratio of success to failures in these procedures, he also states that the criticisms to it are old stories, you have said that you would rather have a look at experts on these fields opinions rather than to individual’s opinions, now this man (the one with the painful surgeries) resents the fact that his parent decided to make him a man, and the pain that he went trough, nothing is said about how the decision was arrived to, I told you earlier that there are a whole range of considerations that come into play before the consent for surgeries is given, urologist consultation in one of them, in those cases where the deformities are such that impair normal waste elimination, the way to go is clear, now let say that the child grows to loath the sex that was chosen by his/her parents, this is a mental disorder called GID, the spokesman said that these surgeries must be carry out within three month from birth to be successful. So although you say that these particular essential surgeries are not disputed by ano one. How do you know that the guy in the video is not one of the cases?
The feel like neither male or female cases are a mental disorders (GID), and the preferred solution is transsexual, that is another thing altogether. I have pointed out to you more than once what the problem is for our society, “transgender lobby groups say that even this does not go far enough and are demanding a fourth legal gender called "other" these are people that have no birth defects, just bizarre sexual behaviour. Even Homosexual are getting into the wagon, the spokesman also point out that the vast majority of these surgery are a success, so we are not talking about millions and the way to go is to direct more resources in research and more therapies, the proposal for the creation of a third or forth gender tittle is not a solution. You have not answer the question “how are this tittles going to help?”
I must tell you again tha Australia does not have the problem that the US has.

 

[gnomon]

Yes we are, now isn’t this what I have been telling you, I don’t know the percentage of failures, a ratio of success to failures in these procedures, he also states that the criticisms to it are old stories, you have said that you would rather have a look at experts on these fields opinions rather than to individual’s opinions, now this man (the one with the painful surgeries) resents the fact that his parent decided to make him a man, and the pain that he went trough, nothing is said about how the decision was arrived to, I told you earlier that there are a whole range of considerations that come into play before the consent for surgeries is given, urologist consultation in one of them, in those cases where the deformities are such that impair normal waste elimination, the way to go is clear, now let say that the child grows to loath the sex that was chosen by his/her parents, this is a mental disorder called GID, the spokesman said that these surgeries must be carry out within three month from birth to be successful. So although you say that these particular essential surgeries are not disputed by ano one. How do you know that the guy in the video is not one of the cases?
The feel like neither male or female cases are a mental disorders (GID), and the preferred solution is transsexual, that is another thing altogether. I have pointed out to you more than once what the problem is for our society, “transgender lobby groups say that even this does not go far enough and are demanding a fourth legal gender called "other" these are people that have no birth defects, just bizarre sexual behaviour. Even Homosexual are getting into the wagon, the spokesman also point out that the vast majority of these surgery are a success, so we are not talking about millions and the way to go is to direct more resources in research and more therapies, the proposal for the creation of a third or forth gender tittle is not a solution. You have not answer the question “how are this tittles going to help?”
I must tell you again tha Australia does not have the problem that the US has.

Gender Identity Disorder is not an issue here. Nor have I stated one way or the other what I think about the adding of a third sexual identity. Transgender is another thing entirely.

GID is not even mentioned by the doctors nor the patients. It's not even part of the issue. People with GID are not intersex. Intersex issues are not grounded in the same phenomenon as GID.

The primary issue involved is the loss of choice in sexual assignment for the individual for the sake of cosmetic surgery. As I said, the issue is not even about corrective surgery to ensure proper functioning of the urinary tract.

Intersex cannot always be recognized at birth. It is not always due to a genetic disorder. As often it is due to hormonal influence.

In the past gender was assigned immediately based on external genitalia thus ignoring the actual biological development the child would undertake. External factors would be introduced such as taking hormone supplements to make the child fit with the assignment. This went along with prompt surgery. That is no longer the case.

Internal factors are now considered as or more important than external genitalia in determining sexual assignment.

Can you possibly imagine what it must be like to be raised as one sex, one gender throughout your developing life and then be reclassed as the other based on ignorance. For many, its suicide.

The issue runs far deeper than the OP allowed and is emphatically not about a bunch of fat cat politicians.

 

[emiliano]

What do you make of this man’s statements? I saw it as dissatisfaction with the sex that his parents gave him, he also expresses his desire to have been left with the gender that God gave (intersex), as I said the video does not say how his parents arrived to their decision, it could be that it was necessary for medical reasons, what becomes clear is that he resents his parents for their decision, he think that he should have been asked, he seems to loath his present appearance, and that could be a symptom of GID that would qualify him for surgery to give him a gender that he could be happy with, I told you that I was not very interested in this source of information, this is but one example of the sort of thing that are there in cyber space, yet you thought that I need to see it to educate myself. How long ago do you thing that his surgery was performed? Has it been any improvement in the diagnostic tools available to doctor since those days? This are our fat cats, the one that our taxes feeds and the issue here is that this white paper does not offer a solution and what should be pursued is the dedications of more resources to research and treatment, the possible reasons for these deformities, the source of the problem, where it is? is it environmental? is it cause by the introductions of chemical in the food chain? substances of abused that by the way are been made legal by these do good bodies. Every thing becomes a right, eg steroids, tobacco, HTC, alcohol, opium derivates, LSD and the list goes on and on. Could this be what gave this man this deformities and not God?
You wrote: Can you possibly imagine what it must be like to be raised as one sex, one gender throughout your developing life and then be reclassed as the other based on ignorance. For many, its suicide.

I thought that you learnt from the videos that these interventions are done in the first months of life and that what it been used to criticise them are the mistakes of the earlier therapies of decades back, science has made huge advances in the diagnostic and prognosis of these cases and are not done for cosmetic reasons. What do you think that will happen to those that will have their condition made public?

 

[darkendless]

For this issue, Emiliano lets blame your God for deforming the poor people, and praise the Government (for once) for trying to do something about it. That way customs won't think she is carrying a pistol in her pants.

 

[gnomon]

I thought that you learnt from the videos that these interventions are done in the first months of life and that what it been used to criticise them are the mistakes of the earlier therapies of decades back, science has made huge advances in the diagnostic and prognosis of these cases and are not done for cosmetic reasons. What do you think that will happen to those that will have their condition made public?

One of the individuals in the video remarked how they lost their ability to be sexually stimulated.

You don't pay attention at all, do you?