The evolution of the brain and nervous system, and the mind and consciousness

[shunyadragon]

Your statement would be contradicting sir, something natural cannot be created or that would make it unatural. Is'nt the actual absolute Godly truth, the universe is all a natural occurence of itself and in the beginning there was no thing but nothingness itself ?

God can't reside beyond infinity so where does God reside within infinity ?

First, the scientific concept of "nothing" in Quantum Mechanics is not the philosophical nothing in Creation ex nilio.

Second, no contradictions. Science uses objective verifiable evidence for the falsification of hypothesis and theories concerning the nature of our physical existence. I do not believe Creation by God would be contradictory to the objective verifiable evidence, We have a problem here if these contradictions exist,

If this is not an adequate answer for you we may debate that in another thread.

 

[shunyadragon]

Not quite, you have volumes of opinion , opinions that are short of observational facts.

This a problem, because the observations and fact of science are based 'objective verifiable evidence, and this research is repeatable over and over again by different scientists all over the world in different universities, and they are not opinions.

From: https://www.google.com/search?q=opi....69i57j0l5.11170j1j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Opinion - a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge..

 

[james blunt]

You are so incredibly wrong on this I'm just speechless.

Every single piece of information in your mind was handed down to you from generation after generation, can you answer what year evolution theory came out ?

I am quite confident it was not at the beginning of humanity, so quite obviously it is a later edition with no actual merit other than a ''because I say so''. This obviously being a product from the original theorist of evolution, hardly factual.

 

[james blunt]

This a problem, because the observations and fact of science are based 'objective verifiable evidence, and this research is repeatable over and over again by different science all over the world in different universities, and they are not opinions.

From: https://www.google.com/search?q=opi....69i57j0l5.11170j1j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Opinion - a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge..

I can verify I have a keyboard on my lap , how can anybody verify evolution ?

Please explain !

 

[shunyadragon]

Every single piece of information in your mind was handed down to you from generation after generation, can you answer what year evolution theory came out ?

Every piece of information in your mind is not based on objective verifiable evidence. That which remains of the mind alone whether it is handed down or not is subjective and anecdotal by definition.

I am quite confident it was not at the beginning of humanity, so quite obviously it is a later edition with no actual merit other than a ''because I say so''. This obviously being a product from the original theorist of evolution, hardly factual.

The facts and objective verifiable evidence is outside the hypothesis and theories of science. The facts and objective verifiable evidence remain what they are over the years and do not change. Darwin proposed the hypothesis of evolution on limited facts and evidence. Those facts and evidence were documented by Charles Darwin and remain facts and evidence today as they were at the time of Charles Darwin. Scientists have documented millions of more facts and pieces of evidence over the past 100 plus years, and these facts have not changed and the hypothesis of evolution remains falsified and the predictions have been made and verified concerning the evolution of life remain accurately predictable far beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[shunyadragon]

I can verify I have a keyboard on my lap , how can anybody verify evolution ?

Please explain !

Millions of facts and accumulated verifiable objective evidence, and research that confirm the hypothesis of evolution far beyond any reasonable doubt.

That is how science works in all sciences, and the reason you have a keyboard and computer and the existence of the internet.

 

[james blunt]

Every piece of information in your mind is not based on objective verifiable evidence. That which remains of the mind alone whether it is handed down or not is subjective and anecdotal by definition.



The facts and objective verifiable evidence is outside the hypothesis and theories of science. The facts and objective verifiable evidence remain what they are over the years and do not change. Darwin proposed the hypothesis of evolution on limited facts and evidence. Those facts and evidence were documented by Charles Darwin and remain facts and evidence today as they were at the time of Charles Darwin. Scientists have documented millions of more facts and pieces of evidence over the past 100 plus years, and these facts have not changed and the hypothesis of evolution remains falsified and the predictions have been made and verified concerning the evolution of life remain accurately predictable far beyond a reasonable doubt.

Thank you for your answer in which I will ponder over whilst I sleep, good night my friend.

 

[Valjean]

Second, no contradictions. Science uses objective verifiable evidence for the falsification of hypothesis and theories concerning the nature of our physical existence. I do not believe Creation by God would be contradictory to the objective verifiable evidence,

True, but the hypothesis will have to wait till there actually is some objective, verifiable evidence to work with.

Every single piece of information in your mind was handed down to you from generation after generation, can you answer what year evolution theory came out ?

I am quite confident it was not at the beginning of humanity, so quite obviously it is a later edition with no actual merit other than a ''because I say so''. This obviously being a product from the original theorist of evolution, hardly factual.

No! science doesn't work this way. It isn't handed down like folklore, nor is Darwin's work sacrosanct.
Science believes in change, and understands the mechanisms thereof, because there is abundant, observable, tested, peer reviewed evidence of it. Science ignores tradition, and appeal to authority doesn't carry much weight, as the method demands testing.

I can verify I have a keyboard on my lap , how can anybody verify evolution ?
Please explain !

!!!
Have you never had a biology course? Just asking such a question tells me you don't have a clue. How can you not have learned this?
Just Google. The evidence is everywhere!

 

[Salvador]

After life arose through chemical evolution to self=replicating and self sustaining organisms. Life evolve from single celled organisms, to multi-cellular organisms, to organisms with symmetry and primitive nervous nervous systems to more complex organisms with brains and nervous systems. The objective verifiable evidence provides the foundation for the hypothesis of the 'emergence' pf the mind and consciousness through evolution.

This thread proposal like the previous one on the science of abiogenesis will focus on the science, but like before some posters will avoid the science for more subjective anecdotal arguments.

Here's a really bizarre claim about consciousness: An observer's knowledge of which path a particle has traveled during the double-slit experiment collapses the particle's wave function.

 

[shunyadragon]

Here's a really bizarre claim about consciousness: An observer's knowledge of which path a particle has traveled during the double-slit experiment collapses the particle's wave function.

Quantum Mechanics lies at the foundation of all of our physical existence at the micro world at particle and atomic level. At the macro level of all of our physical existence the every day laws of physics and chemistry are the determining influence. Variation of the outcomes of cause and effect events is understood as fractal described by chaos theory, but the options of the outcomes of cause and effect are constrained by natural law.

Fallible Humans are the worst eye witness to Quantum phenomenon.

The sciences of biochemistry and neurology are how we describe the behavior and nature of the mind and nervous system function.

 

[osgart]

Not only is experience and its contents hard to probe, but the fact that a personal individual being is having experiences must be equally difficult if not impossible to probe for.
There is a unified presence of an individual being of heart, mind, and will.

 

[Valjean]

Not quite, you have volumes of opinion , opinions that are short of observational facts.

No, we have observed facts.

 

[Salvador]

Quantum Mechanics lies at the foundation of all of our physical existence at the micro world at particle and atomic level. At the macro level of all of our physical existence the every day laws of physics and chemistry are the determining influence. Variation of the outcomes of cause and effect events is understood as fractal described by chaos theory, but the options of the outcomes of cause and effect are constrained by natural law.

Fallible Humans are the worst eye witness to Quantum phenomenon.

The sciences of biochemistry and neurology are how we describe the behavior and nature of the mind and nervous system function.

Researchers have sent molecules containing 810 atoms (whose total mass was over 10,000 atomic mass units) through the so-called "double-slit experiment," showing that they cause an interference pattern that can only be explained if the particles act like waves of water, rather than tiny marbles.

Reference: Physicists Smash Record For Wave-Particle Duality – The Physics arXiv Blog – Medium

Eibenberger, Sandra; et al. (2013). "Matter-wave interference with particles selected from a molecular library with masses exceeding 10000 amu". Physical Chemistry Chemical Physics. 15 (35):1469614700. arXiv:1310.8343. Bibcode:2013PCCP...1514696E. doi:10.1039/C3CP51500A. PMID 23900710.

The behavior of a molecule weighing 10,000 atomc mass units is beyond the scope of quantum mechanics, ...right?

 

[shunyadragon]

Not only is experience and its contents hard to probe, but the fact that a personal individual being is having experiences must be equally difficult if not impossible to probe for.
There is a unified presence of an individual being of heart, mind, and will.

The science of biochemistry and neurology are how explore the brain and nervous system and th emind and consciousness. At present there is no effort to understand all of the above, but . . .

There are significant efforts to describe and understand disease, inherited and acquired,diseases, injuries that cause conditions such as PTSD, and the influence of drugs on the mind and consciousness.

 

[shunyadragon]

Researchers have sent molecules containing 810 atoms (whose total mass was over 10,000 atomic mass units) through the so-called "double-slit experiment," showing that they cause an interference pattern that can only be explained if the particles act like waves of water, rather than tiny marbles.

Reference: Physicists Smash Record For Wave-Particle Duality – The Physics arXiv Blog – Medium

Eibenberger, Sandra; et al. (2013). "Matter-wave interference with particles selected from a molecular library with masses exceeding 10000 amu". Physical Chemistry Chemical Physics. 15 (35):1469614700. arXiv:1310.8343. Bibcode:2013PCCP...1514696E. doi:10.1039/C3CP51500A. PMID 23900710.

OK, So What?!?!?! We are still dealing fallible human observations of Quantum behavior which is the subject of another thread. This thread deals with the evolution of the brain, and the mind and consciousness.

Yes as I described Quantum Mechanics deals with the behavior of atoms and particles at the quantum level. Interesting, but still does not address the topic of the thread.

It remains the fact that he sciences of biochemistry and neurology are how we describe the behavior and nature of the mind and nervous system function, not Quantum Mechanics..

 

[Salvador]

OK, So What?!?!?! We are still dealing fallible human observations of Quantum behavior which is the subject of another thread. This thread deals with the evolution of the brain, and the mind and consciousness.

Yes as I described Quantum Mechanics deals with the behavior of atoms and particles at the quantum level. Interesting, but still does not address the topic of the thread.

It remains the fact that he sciences of biochemistry and neurology are how we describe the behavior and nature of the mind and nervous system function, not Quantum Mechanics..

Fine then, I'll start another thread titled "Wave Function Collapse by Consciousness?"!

 

[robocop (actually)]

After life arose through chemical evolution to self=replicating and self sustaining organisms. Life evolve from single celled organisms, to multi-cellular organisms, to organisms with symmetry and primitive nervous nervous systems to more complex organisms with brains and nervous systems. The objective verifiable evidence provides the foundation for the hypothesis of the 'emergence' pf the mind and consciousness through evolution.

This thread proposal like the previous one on the science of abiogenesis will focus on the science, but like before some posters will avoid the science for more subjective anecdotal arguments.

I won't be getting into this because it is unfair to my customers, but here is a sample of what I think about the mind from my website:

In a system with no motion, subsystems may think they are in motion because their solution is that they are in motion. Atoms are the simplest examples. These systems have thoughts that are interacting with each other. For example, if a shape has been peeled off of memory and is heading to the brain, it is the thought of remembering something. Its shape is what it is, both physically and psychologically. I cover this in detail in [my books].

I won't be posting again in this thread.

 

[Salvador]

I can verify I have a keyboard on my lap , how can anybody verify evolution ?

Please explain !

Specific examples from comparative physiology and biochemistry:

Chromosome 2 in humans

Main article: Chromosome 2 (human)

Further information: Chimpanzee Genome Project § Genes of the Chromosome 2 fusion site

Figure 1b: Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere
Evidence for the evolution of Homo sapiens from a common ancestor with chimpanzees is found in the number of chromosomes in humans as compared to all other members of Hominidae. All hominidae have 24 pairs of chromosomes, except humans, who have only 23 pairs. Human chromosome 2 is a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes.

The evidence for this includes:
The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the common chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.
The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere.
The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the middle.

Chromosome 2 thus presents strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes. According to J. W. Ijdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2

Figure 1b: Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_o...on_descent

Endogenous retroviruses (or ERVs) are remnant sequences in the genome left from ancient viral infections in an organism. The retroviruses (or virogenes) are always passed on to the next generation of that organism that received the infection. This leaves the virogene left in the genome. Because this event is rare and random, finding identical chromosomal positions of a virogene in two different species suggests common ancestry. Cats (Felidae) present a notable instance of virogene sequences demonstrating common descent. The standard phylogenetic tree for Felidae have smaller cats (Felis chaus, Felis silvestris, Felis nigripes, and Felis catus) diverging from larger cats such as the subfamily Pantherinae and other carnivores. The fact that small cats have an ERV where the larger cats do not suggests that the gene was inserted into the ancestor of the small cats after the larger cats had diverged. Another example of this is with humans and chimps. Humans contain numerous ERVs that comprise a considerable percentage of the genome. Sources vary, but 1% to 8% has been proposed. Humans and chimps share seven different occurrences of virogenes, while all primates share similar retroviruses congruent with phylogeny.

 

[Nous]

Ultimately, we conclude that the neurobiological structure of the vertebrate central nervous system is evolutionarily ancient and highly conserved across species and that the basic neurophysiologic mechanisms supporting consciousness in humans are found at the earliest points of vertebrate brain evolution. [. . . ] . . . a review of modern scientific data suggests that the differences between species in terms of the ability to experience the world is one of degree and not kind.

How was this hypothesis tested? How was it concluded that snakes experience love or happiness or a performance of King Lear like humans do?

Some vertebrates have the experience of nearby insects detected by echolocation. Humans don't have such experience.

I'm skeptical that frogs have the experience of being able to choose between available alternatives as (at least many) humans do.

 

[1137]

After life arose through chemical evolution to self=replicating and self sustaining organisms. Life evolve from single celled organisms, to multi-cellular organisms, to organisms with symmetry and primitive nervous nervous systems to more complex organisms with brains and nervous systems. The objective verifiable evidence provides the foundation for the hypothesis of the 'emergence' pf the mind and consciousness through evolution.

This thread proposal like the previous one on the science of abiogenesis will focus on the science, but like before some posters will avoid the science for more subjective anecdotal arguments.

You've provided nothing to support your conclusion. Sure our bodies evolved. That doesn't show us that consciosness depeneds on the body. It also doesn't address any of the problems inherent in materialism. Nor does it address the scientific evidence surrounding the rise of consciousness in the Upper Paleolithic Revolution, which was decidedly different from how biological evolution works. It doesn't even attempt to propose a mechanism by which such consciousness could arise from the material world.

In short, as usual, materialism gets nowhere.