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Featured The Evidence for Random Mutations

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Thermos aquaticus, Apr 23, 2018.

  1. Thermos aquaticus

    Thermos aquaticus Well-Known Member

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    Why do scientists conclude that random mutations coupled with natural selection are responsible for the genetic differences between species? The answer is the evidence. One of those pieces of evidence is the bias found in the types of mutations that separate species, and a great rundown of that evidence is found in an article written by Stephen Schaffner over at BioLogos:

    Testing Common Ancestry: It’s All About the Mutations

    First, let's look at the nucleotides themselves:

    [​IMG]

    The four DNA nucleotides (G, C, A, and T) are pictured above, and you will notice that G and A are chemically similar (two rings) while C and T are chemically similar (single ring). Due to these chemical similarities it is easier for a G to be accidently changed out for an A when DNA is being copied, and the same for C and T. Again, this has to do with the basic chemical properties of the nucleotides. A mutation that switches out similar nucleotides is called a transition while a mutation that switches out dissimilar nucleotides is called a transversion.

    Therefore, if random mutations are responsible for the differences between species then we should see this bias when we compare genomes. Let's start with just a comparison between human genomes:

    [​IMG]

    As we can see, the most common types of substitution mutation are transitions which is a mutation that switches out similar nucleotides. This is exactly what we would expect to see of the known and observed mechanisms that produce random mutations were active in the past in the human genome. What gets more interesting is when we compare the human and chimp genomes:

    [​IMG]
    We see the same exact pattern as we see when we compare human genomes. Transitions are the dominant type of mutation as we would expect to see if the known and observed natural mechanisms of random mutagenesis were responsible for the differences between the human and chimp genome. This pattern also extends to even more distantly related species as discussed in Dr. Schaffner's essay.

    There is also another special type of mutation called a CpG. This stands for 5'--cytosine--phosphate--guanine--3'. In other words, this is mutation where a C turns into a T just upstream of a G in a DNA sequence. The C at this position is very susceptible to being methylated which causes it to mutate into a T. These are, by far, the most commonly observed random mutations, and once again this observed pattern matches what we find when we compare genomes:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This type of evidence is why scientists conclude that random mutations are responsible for the differences between genomes. It has nothing to do with faith or worldview. It has everything to do with observed facts.
     
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  2. Jaiket

    Jaiket Well-Known Member
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    Good work.

    What is the protein in your profile pic?
     
  3. Thermos aquaticus

    Thermos aquaticus Well-Known Member

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    It's a polymerase from the thermophilic bacteria Thermos aquaticus. It is the DNA polymerase used in PCR because it keeps its polymerase activity even after being heated to the boiling point of water. This property of the Taq polymerase allows you to separate the strands of DNA molecules and then recopy each strand to double the amount of a specific sequence of DNA in each thermal cycle of the PCR.
     
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  4. Thermos aquaticus

    Thermos aquaticus Well-Known Member

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    One of the other charts from Dr. Shaffner's essay that details the comparison between humans and other primates. Again, the same pattern is observed:

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Woberts

    Woberts The Perfumed Seneschal

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    I thought this thread was going to be about how "evolution is impossible, atheists are immoral, hail lord Jesus Christ!" I was pleasantly surprised to find out that it isn't.
     
    #5 Woberts, Apr 23, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
  6. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Random has zero meaning. I hike in nature too much, might wanna try it sometime. I have never seen random.in nature. Unpredictable by any math model absolutely unpredictable.by science absolutely everything in nature is that way, but random never seen it. But if I see a yodeling whale walking up the trail then you are correct random is real. Till then forget it its a meaningless philosophical term.
     
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  7. Thermos aquaticus

    Thermos aquaticus Well-Known Member

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    Then let me help you. Random, with respect to mutations, means random with respect to fitness. It is similar to how the lottery is random with respect to the ticket you are holding. There is no meaningful connection between the processes that produce mutations and what the organism needs in a given environment.

    When you see diffuse light during a cloudy day that is the result of random dispersal of photons. When you see smoke move up from your campfire and disperse into the air, that is due to the random movement of smoke particles in the air.
     
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  8. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Let me help you completely unpredictable. Is that too complex? Wow deep insight nature is unpredictable. Deep.
     
  9. Thermos aquaticus

    Thermos aquaticus Well-Known Member

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    That's not the definition I am using.
     
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  10. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    All very impressive. However, for the evolution model to work, these same random mutations at the species level must exist equally above the species level, correct ? Are the same random mutations seen that would bridge the gap between famililieś ?
     
  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    This is not about the number of mutations, but the pattern. It was observed that the number of mutations "worked" a long time ago. But it is nice to see you acknowledge that chimps are in the same family as man.
     
  12. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Yes. The reason for the over 96% similarity between chimp and human genome is that the same random mutations at the same places occur most of the time.
     
  13. Guy Threepwood

    Guy Threepwood Mighty Pirate

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    Just as two different versions of a software package would utilize the same randomized variables within the same routines.. if they were reasonably intelligently designed that is!

    This arguably is also 'what you would expect to see' IF these randomization processes also authored larger differences in the software architecture itself. But that IF ain't just a tad large, it's an insurmountable paradox inherent in hierarchical information systems.
     
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  14. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Veteran Member

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    Please demonstrate that all randomized variables require intelligent design.
     
  15. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Random is only psychologically related to the observer not to the observed..it has no place in science, it's not scientific, when applied to nature, It's a psychological projection identical to religions, God caused it. God caused it or random is the same.thing.
     
  16. Thermos aquaticus

    Thermos aquaticus Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Here is another chart from Dr. Schaffner's essay:

    [​IMG]Not
    We see the same pattern even when we compare species as distantly related as cow and dolphin. In a post above there are comparisons between different primates and the same pattern is seen.
     
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  17. Thermos aquaticus

    Thermos aquaticus Well-Known Member

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    The reason for the 96% similarity is inheritance of shared DNA from a common ancestor. The reason for the 4% difference is mutations that occur at different places in each species.
     
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  18. Thermos aquaticus

    Thermos aquaticus Well-Known Member

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    Just to be clear, you are agreeing that the differences between species is due to the observed and natural processes of mutagenesis?
     
  19. Thermos aquaticus

    Thermos aquaticus Well-Known Member

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    Scientists will gladly ignore this nonsense and continue to use stochastic processes in the science they are doing.
     
  20. Guy Threepwood

    Guy Threepwood Mighty Pirate

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    no, I'm saying the observation is not specific to natural/spontaneous processes, far less proving significant design improvements originating in random mutations.

    To take a wider view for a moment. 'what we should see' can be a bit of a red flag when presenting evidence for things.

    The sun rising in the east and setting in the west is exactly 'what we should see' in a Geocentric solar system, right?

    i.e. The term in practice concedes the observation is not particularly specific.
     
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