The Eminence Islam Attaches To Women

[linwood]

We did answer your question you refused to accept it.

No you didn`t.
You did what every theist does when confronted with direct scripture from his/her holy book that doesn`t conform to their own moral values.

You BS`d.

You claim that the term "Beat her" means to lightly tap when you have no reason whatsoever to believe this other than the personal commentary of a third person.

If it says "beat her" it means "beat her" unless you can find some direct support in the context to change that translation.
I asked for this support and none was forthcoming so I can assume there is none.

Could it be perhaps in a million years that you are the one who is misinterpreting these verses?

Certainly it`s more than possible, it`s highly probable but you have yet to show me within the content of the scripture how I am doing so.
You put forth an opinion of a third person who has no greater insight into the meaning of language in context than I do.
This person also has reason to transliterate to fit his agenda.
Hardly compelling evidence.

And as far as the Quran, as u know the translation is provided in many languages, however in terms of debating text, to know the original language of the book is vital, as with any religious text.

Again with the Muslim disclaimer, and you`ve failed to answer my question as to why the God of all men would wish only one small society to have and hold his word.
If only someone who can read Arabic can truly understand Islam then the religion is worthless to the vast majority of the world.

I have already commented on the verse and your eagerness not to accept the explanation says that you are not willing to learn because you think you know it already.

I hunger for knowledge, I have never been unwilling to learn anything in my entire life.
What I am unwilling to do is to believe unfounded fairy tales from biased agenda based sources.
You claim the verse is different in Arabic but won`t say how.
Does it say "to beat her" or does it not say "to beat her"
What context in the surrounding language would change its meaning?

You`ve also not answered my questions about the status of women in Islam.
Can a woman do anything a man is allowed?
can a woman hold any position a man can?
Are a womans wishes/desires subserviant to any mans?

Teach me.

...Salam you are right, most converts I know have been women.
This is not new, out of the reports I have read it seems to be the same nationwide.

Could you cite some of these reports so I may better learn?

 

[Peace]

Some Ahadiths (Traditional sayings of Prophet Mohammed pbuh) showing the status of women in Islam.

When a man asked the Prophet (pbuh) "Who is most entitled to be treated with the best companionship by me?" the Prophet (pbuh) told him "Your mother." The man asked, "Who is next?" The Prophet (pbuh) said, "Your mother." Again the man asked, "Who is next?" The Prophet (pbuh) said, "Your mother." The man asked for a fourth time, "Who is next?" The Prophet (pbuh) said "Your father." (Bukhari).

On another occasion when a man came to the Prophet (pbuh) and expressed the desire to join a military expedition, the Prophet (pbuh) asked him if he had a mother. When he replied that he had, the Prophet (pbuh) told him, "Stay with her, for Paradise is at her feet." (Ahmad, Basa'i and Al-Baihaqi).

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "If anyone cares for three daughters, disciplines them, marries them and is kind to them, he will go to Paradise." (Abu Dawud).

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Everyone of you is a guardian and responsible for what is in his or her custody. The ruler is a guardian of his subjects and responsible for them; a husband is a guardian of his family and is responsible for it; a wife is a guardian of her husband's household and is responsible for it." (Bukhari).
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Women and Mariage:
Imam Malik has recorded in Al-Muwatta that a certain widow named Khansa was given by her father in marriage. She disapproved of that and went to the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) and he revoked the marriage.
On another occasion a virgin came to the Prophet (pbuh) and mentioned that her father had married her against her will, so the Prophet (pbuh) allowed her to exercise her choice. (Abu Dawud).
The wife of Thabit bin Qais came to Allah's Messenger (pbuh) and said, "O Allah's Messenger! I do not blame Thabit for any defects in his character or his religion, but I cannot endure to live with him." On that Allah's Messenger (pbuh) asked her, "Will you return his garden (he had given to her as a marriage gift) to him?" She said, "Yes." And he separated them. (Bukhari).
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A Muslim woman, Umm Hani, gave protection to one of the idolaters. The Prophet (pbuh) approved of it and said, "We give protection to whom you (Umm Hani) have given protection."
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Women and learning:
When a lady asked the Prophet (pbuh), "Messenger of Allah, men have monopoly of all of what you say. Appoint for us a day on which you may teach us of what Allah has taught you," he appointed a time and place for them separately and he would go and teach them.
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In the new Islamic community women were so active and well informed that an old woman corrected Caliph Umar when he wanted to limit the amount of dowry. Umar was pleased and said, "The lady is right and Umar is wrong."

 

[_salam_]

I found this article and thought it was interesting. Enjoy. http://http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=ST0412-2539

 

[Valjean]

The more evidence you give of the fundamental fairness and equality mandated by the Quran, the more you highlight the hypocracy and unrighteousness of muslim societies. The actual workings of Muslim culture are clearly at odds with your description of Islamic law. Your exegesis condemns Islamic society as criminal, evil and heretical.

 

[_salam_]

The more evidence you give of the fundamental fairness and equality mandated by the Quran, the more you highlight the hypocracy and unrighteousness of muslim societies. The actual workings of Muslim culture are clearly at odds with your description of Islamic law. Your exegesis condemns Islamic society as criminal, evil and heretical.

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with what you said. But lets remember not to judge Islam (meaning the religion and what it teaches) according to what some Muslims do or what certain "Muslim" societies do.

 

[Valjean]

That is my point exactly, Salam! You claim Islam is good, but that the actual application of it is in error. Ergo, you condemn contemporary muslim society as heretical and criminal.

QED!

 

[_salam_]

Ok, I thought that was what you were getting at but I wasn't sure. First I would just like to point out that the "Muslim society" that most people think of, and which I assume you are refering to, the Middle East, is in fact only about 18 or 20% of all Muslims. Second I would like to say that the actions of some societies and Muslims are not the only ones I condemn, in fact there are a ton of things I don't agree with in my own society. Third, it seemed to me that these issues you are bringing up are in response to the article I posted. I don't mind discussing these topics, however, I'm confused about how they relate to the article.

 

[chuck010342]

No this is not what this means. When it says take what your right hand possess it is talking about a servant or a girl that is your slave. The verse is saying that you should marry women, up to four, but if you can't handle four then you should just marry one or one of your servants or slave girls. This doesn't say to rape the servant girls but to marry them, and if you were to marry them they would recieve the rights of being your wife which would make them a free person, so infact this would be a good deed. I'm not sure what you think is bad about this verse.
You also claim that there are many contradictions in the Qur'an, well I would have to disagree with you there. Yes some verses might appear to be contradictory when taken out of context but when we actually investigate them there is no such contradiction.

You know your the first muslim that actual has said that the countradictions in the quran are taken out of context. In another thread I'm going to deal with this issue. "

To take a slave girl by force to marry her. Isn't that the same thing as rape?

 

[_salam_]

You know your the first muslim that actual has said that the countradictions in the quran are taken out of context. In another thread I'm going to deal with this issue. "

To take a slave girl by force to marry her. Isn't that the same thing as rape?

You are 100% wrong. I do not beleive there to be contradictions in the Qur'an, I suggest you go back and read what I actually said. What I said was that when people start to take verses in the Qur'an out of context they might think they are contradictory, however, when we look at what these verses really mean there is NO contradiction between them.

Now as for your comment about a slave girl being forced to marry, I'm assuming your taking this from 4:3 of the Qur'an which says:

"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."

Please show me where in this verse that it says to force any women into marraige. It's not there. So I don't know where your getting this idea from. In fact if we look deeper we find that Islam holds the exact opposite view, which would be that both people, the man and the woman, have the choice of who they wish to marry and CAN NOT be forced into it.
Actually I have a great example for you from the Prophet (pbuh) himself, this is in regards to a girl that was brought before him to be married and she did not wish to marry him.

When the Prophet entered upon her, he said to her, "Give me yourself (in marriage) as a gift." She said, "I seek refuge with Allah from you." He said, "You have sought refuge with One Who gives refuge. Then the Prophet came out to us and said, "O Abu Usaid! Give her two white linen dresses to wear and let her go back to her family." This is from the Hadith of Sahih Bukhari volume 7, book 63, number 182.

Another example, The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." Bukhari volume7, book 62, number 67.

Oh and again, "that her father gave her in marriage when she was a matron and she disliked that marriage. So she went to Allah's Apostle and he declared that marriage invalid." Bukhari volume7, book 62, number 69. I don't think I can make this anymore clear.

 

[chuck010342]

You are 100% wrong. I do not beleive there to be contradictions in the Qur'an, I suggest you go back and read what I actually said.[/quote}

This is a bit confusing but I must try and clairify something. The countradictions in the Quran do not exsist because they are taken out of context. This is the same level of thinking that I use when dealing with countradictions in the Bible.

What I said was that when people start to take verses in the Qur'an out of context they might think they are contradictory, however, when we look at what these verses really mean there is NO contradiction between them.

there is still a countradiction but the countradiction isn't really a countradiction because of the context of the verse in question.

Now as for your comment about a slave girl being forced to marry, I'm assuming your taking this from 4:3 of the Qur'an which says:

"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."

Please show me where in this verse that it says to force any women into marraige. It's not there. So I don't know where your getting this idea from. In fact if we look deeper we find that Islam holds the exact opposite view, which would be that both people, the man and the woman, have the choice of who they wish to marry and CAN NOT be forced into it.
Actually I have a great example for you from the Prophet (pbuh) himself, this is in regards to a girl that was brought before him to be married and she did not wish to marry him.

When the Prophet entered upon her, he said to her, "Give me yourself (in marriage) as a gift." She said, "I seek refuge with Allah from you." He said, "You have sought refuge with One Who gives refuge. Then the Prophet came out to us and said, "O Abu Usaid! Give her two white linen dresses to wear and let her go back to her family." This is from the Hadith of Sahih Bukhari volume 7, book 63, number 182.

Another example, The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." Bukhari volume7, book 62, number 67.

Oh and again, "that her father gave her in marriage when she was a matron and she disliked that marriage. So she went to Allah's Apostle and he declared that marriage invalid." Bukhari volume7, book 62, number 69. I don't think I can make this anymore clear.

Those other sources are not the quran now are they?

 

[desi]

What is a clitorectomy and why is it common in Muslim countries?

 

[Yerda]

Pondering the word 'clitorectomy' may reveal something about its nature, Desi.

 

[_salam_]

Those other sources are not the quran now are they?

You just don't get it do you? As I stated earlier in Islam we follow the Qur'an and the sayings/examples of the Prophet (pbuh). But this is besides the point because you never showed me as to where in this verse it says to force women to marry you. All it says is that you if you can't deal justly with the orphans then you should marry women, up to four if you are able to be just with four, if not then only one, OR one that your right hand possess. I can't find any where in this verse where it says to force anybody into a marriage.

 

[Valjean]

Clitoridectomy is a cultural practise of certain, mostly African cultures. Their attempt to link it to Islam is a stretch.

 

[_salam_]

Clitoridectomy is a cultural practise of certain, mostly African cultures. Their attempt to link it to Islam is a stretch.

What is it, I don't think I have heard of this before.

 

[Yerda]

Clitoridectomy is a cultural practise of certain, mostly African cultures. Their attempt to link it to Islam is a stretch.

While I doubt it is an Islamic practice, handing the credit to Africans?

 

[painted wolf]

according to amnesty international:
[font=Arial, helvetica][size=-1]"An estimated 135 million of the world's girls and women have undergone genital mutilation, and two million girls a year are at risk of mutilation - approximately 6,000 per day. It is practised extensively in Africa and is common in some countries in the Middle East. It also occurs, mainly among immigrant communities, in parts of Asia and the Pacific, North and Latin America and Europe."
taken from: http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm1.htm#a3

I agree that it is a cultural thing, rather than an Islamic thing. It has most likely existed long before Islam came to many of the areas, just as male Circumcision has.

wa:do
[/size][/font]

 

[_salam_]

Ok. Yeah I have heard of this, and let me assure everybody it has nothing to do with Islam.

 

[Yerda]

Thanks for digging up that info painted wolf.

 

[_salam_]

Those other sources are not the quran now are they?

I know I have already responded to this comment and showed how it is irrelevant, however, I was just listening to a lecture today and heard a verse from the Qur'an that specifically states that you can't force women into marriage.

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good." 4. 19

Case closed.:woohoo: