The despised Cross of Christ

[wizanda]

First of all, that's quite an assumption that you have jumped to that the oral tradition was "made up". How could you possibly know that? Evidence please?

Just posted Mark 7, maybe you missed it says oral tradition is made up by men.

Didn't deny Yeshua was understanding Pharisee concepts, and was even allowed to teach in the synagogue; just open to the possibility as a Jew, he was outside of the sects.

In no way was Jesus an Essene, so that's simply a non-starter.

Could say the same sweeping statements, that we know hardly anything of the Essenes...

Yeshua like the Essenes believed in the impending destruction of Israel, and fulfillment of prophecy in that time.

Anyways if we must have this debate, it needs its own thread.

 

[metis]

Just posted Mark 7, maybe you missed it says oral tradition is made up by men.

Which is what I posted in regards to some of the more liberal Pharisees, but apparently you missed it.

Didn't deny Yeshua was understanding Pharisee concepts, and was even allowed to teach in the synagogue; just open to the possibility as a Jew, he was outside of the sects.

But what is that assumption based on? How could you possibly know this? Again, assumptions, assumptions, based on more assumptions.

Could say the same sweeping statements, that we know hardly anything of the Essenes...

But we know enough about them whereas we can pretty much surmise that Jesus wasn't one of them. Maybe take some time and go through some of the facts about the Essenes, and even the Wiki article on them is a good place to start.

BTW, there is not one quote of Jesus' or the author's of the epistles that can be traced back to any of the Essene writings that are not found in the Tanakh, and the Essenes had a large body of non-Tanakh writings.

Anyhow, moving on...

 

[wizanda]

Which is what I posted in regards to some of the more liberal Pharisees, but apparently you missed it.

Pharisees, accepted oral tradition, Yeshua said they're made up.... I don't understand your point, even liberal Pharisees meant they accepted oral traditions.

But what is that assumption based on?

Some of Yeshua statements, giving up wealth, flowers dressed better than Solomon, ravens having all food provided, that God would provide everything, these were Essene concepts...

Like with Essene bread, which used no leaven; so when he said about Pharisee leaven, this was also being referenced.

Heard it said how the Pharisees also had sayings like it; yet they weren't living by them as the Essenes were, and as Yeshua stated.

Again, assumptions, assumptions, based on more assumptions.

It is an assumption to base Yeshua purely in the Pharisees camp, when he clearly has aspects that are outside of it, and categorically denied Pharisees from entering Heaven.

As for reading the Wikipedia page about Essenes, and the Jewish website, etc; we don't know enough about them, which is amazing for a large body of Judaism, that has more or less vanished, like the Ebionites as well....

Yet not surprising they've vanished from history, when the Jewish site, says the Essenes were a sect of the Pharisees.

 

[Yoshua]

Sorry when you've removed Paul, John and Simon the stone (petros); Yeshua was the one teaching it is by our works we will be judged.

Hi Wizanda,

Of course, no doubt about that. he works that will be judged for believers are the works that they have done for God. Let us be clear about this.

You don't need to be a believer in Yeshua; yet you do need to follow what he was teaching to get into Heaven, which is why his name means Salvation, as by his teachings, he shows what is required.

Being a Christian shows people to either not be following Yeshua or to be a blatant hypocrite.

So, you mean that we we should not follow Christ and not believe? May I know your belief or give me some background of yours? Are you a Christian?

See this is how i know you don't follow Yeshua, as you're asking such silly questions.... Works glorify God, works help do the work of God, works start to make here on earth, as it is Heaven, works show you to be worthy of being in the Messianic age.

Seriously what did you think all Yeshua's parables were about, when he was talking about servants working?

Physically, we work out our faith in Christ Jesus. We are human, people look at our works rather than our faith. Actions are visible rather than faith but faith empowers a person to do good works.
What makes a Christian do good works? It is by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, our faith in God and primarily it is because of Jesus Christ.

Yeshua didn't speak to Paul, he made it up.

If Paul didn't make it up, then his words should match the teachings of Yeshua, as this list shows, yet they don't and contradict on most points.

Therefore Paul is just a pharisee infiltrator, and the deception Yeshua prophesied would happen soon after.

Kindly check this out, they are consistent with the teachings of Jesus.

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes," (John 5:21) - Jesus
"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive," (1 Cor. 15:22) - Paul

"For this reason I say to you, do not be anxious for your life, as to what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, as to what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body than clothing?" (Matt. 6:25) - Jesus
"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God," (Phil. 4:6) - Paul

"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep," (John 10:11) - Jesus
"and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma," (Eph. 5:2) - Paul

"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am," (John 8:58). Compare with Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you." - Jesus
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," (Col. 2:9). See also, Phil. 2:5-8 - Paul

"For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you," (Matt. 6:14) - Jesus
"And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you," (Eph. 4:32) - Paul

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24). See also John 3:16-18; Luke 18:9-13 - Jesus
"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1) - Paul

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17) - Jesus
"Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law," (Rom. 3:31) - Paul

"What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise," (Gal. 3:17) - Paul
"You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself," (Matt. 19:18-19) - Jesus

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds," (Matt. 16:27).- Jesus
" 5. But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to every man according to his deeds," (Rom. 2:6).- Paul

 

[Yoshua]

Yes Yeshua was a light unto the Gentiles; yet the disciples were going to do that, and by following Yeshua's teachings.

Instead what we see is Christianity is a replica of Pharisaic Judaism, corrupt from the very beginning.

The Ebionites were more inline with Yeshua's teachings, and were possibly the early church giving up wealth, that Paul wiped out, and then created his own religion (Christianity) on top of it.

Christianity is not Judaism. But there are some who is a Jewish Christian. Paul is an example of a changed life person in Christianity. He surrendered his life to Christ and followed it (as showed my above post).

Thanks

 

[wizanda]

Christianity is not Judaism.

Christianity is very much based on Pharisaic Judaism; Paul, John, and partially Simon have all based their teachings on Pharisaic oral traditions, and not on Yeshua's teachings.

Are you a Christian?

So no I'm not a Christian, as that is a follower of Simon the stone (petros) and Paul's ministry.

Since they contradict Yeshua, you can't be a Christian, and follow Christ at the same time.

So, you mean that we we should not follow Christ and not believe?

No, meaning to follow Christ, you're to follow his words to the letter, he said believe, and have faith in God....It is only found in John, Paul and Simon to believe in him.

So someone on the far side of the moon, who has never heard the gospels, yet is doing the teachings of Yeshua, will be saved; whereas someone who has heard his words, yet has been misguided by the Pharisees (John, Paul and Simon) will not.

Kindly check this out, they are consistent with the teachings of Jesus.

John is made up by the Pharisees, and in some of them you're comparing Paul's Pharisaic writing with it.

(Matt. 6:25) - Jesus Vs (Phil. 4:6) - Paul

Yeshua is saying here to give up everything, as God will provide, which is an Essene concept. Paul on the other hand is saying ask God for everything.

(Matt. 6:14) - Jesus Vs (Eph. 4:32) - Paul

Yeshua is saying if you forgive others, God shall forgive you, putting the ownership on to you to be a righteous person. Paul on the other hand is saying, Christ was righteous therefore you're forgiven because of him.

(Matt. 5:17) - Jesus Vs (Rom. 3:31) - Paul

Good point, Paul in that one statement does look like he saying the Law still stands; yet in other points Paul is saying the Law has ended, and goes into long discourses of how it has to be that way, otherwise jesus' death means nothing.

(Matt. 16:27).- Jesus & (Rom. 2:6).- Paul

Now you've got one point they agree on in this verse, mainly because it is written throughout the Tanakh, and thus Paul's quoting it; yet in other places Paul states, 'that it isn't by works, yet by faith and grace alone', so he just contradicts himself all over the place.

Trying to find places they fit together is more confusing, than understanding where you've got 3 different theologies in the new testament, told as one thing by Christianity, when they're clearly divided.

 

[metis]

Pharisees, accepted oral tradition, Yeshua said they're made up.... I don't understand your point, even liberal Pharisees meant they accepted oral traditions.

No, not all Pharisee groups accepted the oral law, so let me recommend you check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees

Yet not surprising they've vanished from history, when the Jewish site, says the Essenes were a sect of the Pharisees.

No, they were not, so you might want to check this out: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/sadducees_pharisees_essenes.html

Because of the fact that you feel so free to use the face-palm when it is you who has not done the research, this will be my last response to you on this thread. Maybe it's actually best to do your homework before posting.

Besides the above links, let me recommend the book "The Jews In the Time of Jesus" by Stephen Wylen, who goes through what the archaeologists and researchers have found. It's an excellent book, plus there's always BAR.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I believe the gospel is the "good news" of the historical event of Christ's death on the cross, burial, and resurrection to save and redeem human beings for eternity.

I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you -- unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day... 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

In the world where humanist mindset prevails that all are inherently good the cross is despised because it is contrary to such thinking and confronts human pride and the sinfulness of human nature...

Point A: What history do you base Christ's alleged death, burial, and resurrection on, that you call it a historical event?

Point B: 'Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures...'< according to which Jewish scriptures did Christ die for sins?

Point C: Humanism is the opposite of prideful in any negative sense. Humanism is a life of humility and service for the good of all.

I think these starting points will do...

 

[wizanda]

Because of the fact that you feel so free to use the face-palm when it is you who has not done the research

There is a Jewish website someone gave me before, where it said that the Essenes were a sect of the Pharisees....So the face palm was based on having read such rubbish.

Really not bothered if you reply, as you're just being patronizing.

Peace

 

[metis]

There is a Jewish website someone gave me before, where it said that the Essenes were a sect of the Pharisees....So the face palm was based on having read such rubbish.

Really not bothered if you reply, as you're just being patronizing.

Peace

Sorry that I missed whom the face-palm was aimed at.

I can't quite figure out how I'm being "patronizing", but whatever. Seems to me I've tried to help you out with the links I provided, and if that's being "patronizing", well I guess that's just your perception. I taught theology for many years and still do (I have another presentation to make next Tuesday, for example), so I guess it's just too easy for me to slip into "teacher mode".

 

[wizanda]

"teacher mode".

Teacher mode is fine, and I'm willing to question and learn.... It was the closing statements, that this conversation isn't worth bothering with.

Thought the whole premise of the Pharisees compared to other sects, was they had oral tradition where other sects of Judaism didn't accept it?

 

[metis]

Teacher mode is fine, and I'm willing to question and learn.... It was the closing statements, that this conversation isn't worth bothering with.

Thought the whole premise of the Pharisees compared to other sects, was they had oral tradition where other sects of Judaism didn't accept it?

Other sects had their own "oral traditions", generally preferring to not use the "oral law" terminology as used by the mainline Pharisees.

After the Way gradually split from the other branches of Judaism, they developed their own "oral tradition", and much of that was obviously used to write the gospels and epistles. There was much more found in that tradition that never made it into the canon, which caused much controversy both in establishing the canon centuries later and also with interpretations of some "sticky" parts. Papias, for example, was highly critical of Mark's gospel because he felt too much of it was incomplete and misleading, as he had tapped into a source written by one who claimed to have known Jesus. I don't recall if Papias ever stated whom his source was.

 

[Ingledsva]

...

"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am," (John 8:58). Compare with Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you." - Jesus
...

I just have to say - this is mistranslated –

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

It should read something like –

John 8:56 Abraham, your father, was passionate/zealous to behold the age/era of Me, and experience and hail/rejoice.

John 8:57 Said accordingly the Jews to him, fifty years dead, and did not yet even Abraham behold.

John 8:58 Said he Jesus, verily, verily, I say to you, ere (so that/for) Abraham be fulfilled, I am (I exist.)

Note that this “I am – I exist” is NOT a name. It does not relate to Exodus 3:14.

*

"I am" isn't a name in Exodus 3:14 either.

It tells us YHVH is the name.

Exo 3:4 And YHVH saw that he turned aside to see, and The Elohiym called to him from the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, I am here.

Exo 3:6 And He said, I am the Elohiym of your fathers, the Elohiym of Abraham, the Elohiym of Isaac, and the Elohiym of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he feared to look upon The Elohiym.

Exo 3:9 And YHVH said to Moses, I have surely seen the affliction of my people that is in Egypt, and I have heard their cry caused by their task-masters; for I know their affliction.

Exo 3:10 And now, come, and I will send you to Pharaoh, and you bring My people out, the sons of Israel out of Egypt.

Exo 3:13 Moses said to Elohiym: Lo, I shall go to the children of Israel, and say to them: The Elohiym of your fathers hath sent me to you. If they shall say to me: What is his name? What shall I say to them?

Gen 3:14 --

(DRB) God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.

(ME 14) And said THE Elohiym to Moses: I am Who Is (Exists.) and He said thus shall you say to the Sons of Israel: (He) who Exists, has sent me to you


(Me 15) and Elohiym continued, saying to Moses: You shall say this to the sons of Israel, YHVH, the Elohiym of your fathers, the Elohiym of Abraham, the Elohiym of Isaac, and the Elohiym of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is how I should be remembered from generation to generation.


Gen 3:15 And Elohiym said to Moses again, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, YHVH, the Elohiym of your fathers, the Elohiym of Abraham, the Elohiym of Isaac, and the Elohiym of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is how I should be remembered from generation to generation.

Gen 3:16 Go and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, YHVH the Elohiym of your fathers, the Elohiym of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, hath appeared to me, saying, I have indeed visited you, and seen that which is done unto you in Egypt;

As you can see - YHVH is saying he is the God that actually exists, the God of their forefathers, and his name is YHVH - forever.

*

 

[Yoshua]

Christianity is very much based on Pharisaic Judaism; Paul, John, and partially Simon have all based their teachings on Pharisaic oral traditions, and not on Yeshua's teachings.

Hi Wizanda,

How can you prove it? Do you have to show me scriptures or accounts or what?

So no I'm not a Christian, as that is a follower of Simon the stone (petros) and Paul's ministry.

Since they contradict Yeshua, you can't be a Christian, and follow Christ at the same time.

Therefore, how will you know what is to follow Christ if you are not a Christian? It seems this is just your comment but with no strong basis.

No, meaning to follow Christ, you're to follow his words to the letter, he said believe, and have faith in God....It is only found in John, Paul and Simon to believe in him.

So someone on the far side of the moon, who has never heard the gospels, yet is doing the teachings of Yeshua, will be saved; whereas someone who has heard his words, yet has been misguided by the Pharisees (John, Paul and Simon) will not.

First, you said that you are not a Christian. Then now, you claimed that those unheard of the gospel yet doing the teachings of Yeshua will be saved. Then, how those unheard of the gospel will know the teachings of Yeshua, and according to you will be saved?

John is made up by the Pharisees, and in some of them you're comparing Paul's Pharisaic writing with it.

Why don't you analyze and study what I've posted here about the statements of Yeshua and statements of Paul rather than judging it as pharisaic.

Yeshua is saying here to give up everything, as God will provide, which is an Essene concept. Paul on the other hand is saying ask God for everything.

"For this reason I say to you, do not be anxious for your life, as to what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, as to what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body than clothing?" (Matt. 6:25) - Jesus
"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God," (Phil. 4:6) - Paul

Let us continue the statements of Christ Jesus.
26. "Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?
27. "And which of you by being anxious can add a single cubit to his life's span?
28. "And why are you anxious about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin,
29. yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory did not clothe himself like one of these.
30. "But if God so arrays the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more do so for you, O men of little faith?
31. "Do not be anxious then, saying, `What shall we eat?' or `What shall we drink?' or `With what shall we clothe ourselves?'
32. "For all these things the Gentiles eagerly seek; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.

When Paul say that our requests be made known to God, that's clearly expressed and emphasized the same application as not to be anxious. Jesus is clearly saying do not be anxious for our lives, for Paul--do not be anxious, pray to God and give our request to God. I don't see any contradiction.

Questions:
1.) Did Jesus say "do not be anxious"?
2.) Did Paul say "do not be anxious"?
3.) What makes the difference between "do not be anxious in life" and "do not be anxious for nothing, and do it in prayer"?
4.) Did Yeshua did not told us to pray to God with thanksgiving?

Why twist the meaning if their statements obviously consistent from each other?

Yeshua is saying if you forgive others, God shall forgive you, putting the ownership on to you to be a righteous person. Paul on the other hand is saying, Christ was righteous therefore you're forgiven because of him.

"For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you," (Matt. 6:14) - Jesus
"And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you," (Eph. 4:32) - Paul

Jesus is saying if we forgive others (men), our God will also forgive you. If we don't learn how to forgive others, we don't truly experienced and received God's forgiveness. This is about forgiving others. Paul also says forgiving each other because God also forgives, as Christ also showed forgiveness. Your interpretation is too far from the real context.

 

[Yoshua]

Good point, Paul in that one statement does look like he saying the Law still stands; yet in other points Paul is saying the Law has ended, and goes into long discourses of how it has to be that way, otherwise jesus' death means nothing.

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17) - Jesus
"Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law," (Rom. 3:31) - Paul

Rom. 3:21-24
21. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22. even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24. being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
The goal of the Law has been met, not by human performance, but by the free gift of the grace of God in Christ!

Where did Paul say that the law has ended? where? The word "nullify" means render powerless and make no effect. It is not ended. If the law was totally ended, why Jesus said "to fulfill"? Jesus even cited the law of commandments given to Moses as loving your neighbor, not killing, honor thy parents etc....The goal of the law has been met not by man's action or performance, instead by the grace of God in Christ Jesus.

Now you've got one point they agree on in this verse, mainly because it is written throughout the Tanakh, and thus Paul's quoting it; yet in other places Paul states, 'that it isn't by works, yet by faith and grace alone', so he just contradicts himself all over the place.

Trying to find places they fit together is more confusing, than understanding where you've got 3 different theologies in the new testament, told as one thing by Christianity, when they're clearly divided.

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds," (Matt. 16:27).- Jesus
" 5. But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to every man according to his deeds," (Rom. 2:6).- Paul

Why would Paul contradicts about faith and grace? Is Jesus coming here as the atonement for man's sin not by grace. Did the salvation that was offered not by grace? Then what do you think is it?

Paul and Jesus' statements agreed that there will be a judgment according to our deeds.

Thanks

 

[wizanda]

How can you prove it?

'The death of the righteous can atone for the sins of that generation' is the oral tradition, which is why Yeshua was accusing the Pharisees in Matthew 23, of having murdered the prophets.

In the parable of the wicked husbandmen, it states that the Pharisees will kill him and tell people you get inheritance from his death.

Both are a Pharisaic concept, that Christianity is based on.

Therefore, how will you know what is to follow Christ if you are not a Christian?

Christianity is based on the teachings of Paul, John and Simon the stone (petros); it isn't based on Yeshua's teachings in the synoptic gospels....

Therefore Christianity doesn't follow Christ; it follows the Pharisees.

First, you said that you are not a Christian.

Never said i was Christian, i accept Yeshua tho.

Then, how those unheard of the gospel will know the teachings of Yeshua, and according to you will be saved?

Because Yeshua was asking people to be righteous; there are righteous people who have never read the Bible.

Why don't you analyze and study what I've posted here about the statements of Yeshua and statements of Paul rather than judging it as pharisaic.

The gospel of John isn't the words or teachings of Yeshua, it is made up by the Pharisees to fit what they thought he said....

Thus why would i spend time going over made up points of John, with made up points of Paul.

Why twist the meaning if their statements obviously consistent from each other?

They're not consistent with each other, Paul is saying ask God for everything; Yeshua is saying God will provide everything, as God already knows what we need.

just as God in Christ also has forgiven you,

Paul is saying because jesus counts as a sin sacrifice, your sins are forgiven; Yeshua says if you forgive, then you have your sins forgiven.

Now if Paul is wrong, about jesus being an atoning sacrifice, then you don't get your sins forgiven, and therefore do you not forgive also?

 

[wizanda]

Is Jesus coming here as the atonement for man's sin not by grace. Did the salvation that was offered not by grace? Then what do you think is it?

Yeshua didn't come as an atoning sacrifice, you've been set up; that is the great deception to catch out those who would've murdered the saints to get closer to God....

Yeshua came teaching the knowledge of God, and they murdered him, and made it sound like that was what was meant to happen.

Study the parable of the wicked husbandmen.... It says those who think they get free inheritance from the death of Yeshua shall be condemned on judgement day.