Moz
Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
"The enlightened Americans actually adopted the worst model of slavery that ever existed."
Completely irrelevant. We are discussing slavery in the Bible.
Are you going to tell me there is a moral form of slavery? Whether there are varying degrees of immorality between one form of slavery and another is not even an argument. Slavery is either moral or immoral. It is a binary choice.
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Hi
Completely irrelevant. We are discussing slavery in the Bible.
Are you going to tell me there is a moral form of slavery? Whether there are varying degrees of immorality between one form of slavery and another is not even an argument. Slavery is either moral or immoral. It is a binary choice.
I referred to the American model merely to point out that there is a type of hysterical guilt that clouds the American perspective on this.Europeans are much more pragmatic as they know that we were ALL slaves at some time in history......... older cultures recognize this and are not so guilty.
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It is far from clear that slavery was Immoral in the context of the ancient world. This isn't even contentious stuff in the literature. Any scholarly work on the socio/economic make up of the ancient world actually points to its necessity as a way of large social organisation. The Pharoah owned ALL the Egyptians so HE was responsible for feeding the nation and we get CIVILIZATION. Organized mass labour is the foundation of civilization without it you are still in pre historic hunter gather models.
I do not LIKE it but they are the facts. No slavery in the past........ no modern world today.
If you wish to dispute that then read Slavery- A world History or another authoritative work on the subject and at least come at the subject from some from of reality in history.
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"A declaration by the Christians to ban slavery would have had no effect on the Roman system"
So what? the Christians banned murder and adultery with out regard to whether it would affect the Roman empire. Why would god care about the Roman empire? Either slavery is moral or immoral. Whether it affects the Romans or not is of absolutely no consequence.
The consequence would have been Mass Crucifixion of all christian slaves. The example of Sparticus' rebelion was very live in the slave mind. Freeing your slave may have condemned them to starvation there was not much wage labour type of work going around. How can you even get close to No Consequence.
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"You have just defeated an Assyrian force in battle and captured 20 000 hardarse Assyrian footmen....etc. This is a non-sequitur. If this is a valid reason for slavery, then the United States should by now have enslaved England, Germany, Japan, Vietnam, Korea, Cuba, Mexico (yes, we invaded Mexico) and a number of other nations. I will counter with this bible passage instead of making up another hypothetical:
This is NOT hypothetical it was the realpolitic situation of the ancient world. To use a 20th century example to try and discredit a bronze age situation is pretty weak. Railways and international shipping solved many of the logistical problems of mass incarceration. NOT viable before industralisation.
Tell me what YOU would do with them if not enslavement or slaughter..... this is where i never get an answer.
You indicated that you were trained to defend me... then what does your training indicate in this situation taking into account the logistical constraints of the time. It is a REAL issue NOT hypothetical. I can tell you what the Summerian, Babylonian, Elamite, Hurrian, Mittani, Hittite, Egyptian, Pheonicean, Amarite Akkadian and Assyrian cultures decided was the answer. But i think you can guess.
And i KNOW you will not answer the challenge, you'll bluster off on some tangent, because you KNOW the only available answer to most of these situations is slaughter or slavery.
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I will counter with this bible passage instead of making up another hypothetical:
BOTH sides were playing by the same rules. Bronze age warfare was brutal on ALL sides i don't see why you only single out one side.The idea that certain conflicts have a no quarter given aspect is not unreasonable nor is it immoral. Both sides were taking their chances were they not?
Is that not actually the definition of morality a fair fight where both are subject to the same outcomes?
That's how the Greeks organised there domestic warfare a 1000 years later and with much "thinking about the moral issues". They came to the conclusion that if you played that game then you put up with the consequences. Losers are the slaves of the winners. Now play. Entire Legions captured in the wars between Rome and Persia CHOSE enslavement over execution many times, going on to become loyal Mamalluke slave soldiers and were PROUD of there station.
The claim that slavery is IMMORAL regardless of the circumstances INSULTS those who chose slavery as a means of self preservation.... This is NOT easy stuff like you seem to be claiming. To some when confronted with death the 'morality" of personal liberty was trumped by the moral of survival as the guiding motivation.
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This is another hyperbolic statement. The God of the Bible did NOT send his people out to conquer and enslave other peoples....
Other than the initial occupation of the promised land which you quote show me where the Jewish state engaged in wars of expansion or pillaging as the aggressor.
1000 years as a middle eastern Kingdom you should be able to show dozens of times when they tried to expand like ALL there neighbours. Why did they not follow the example of EVERY nation around them and have a go at Empire? Surley if they were hateful raping mauradures pushed by a bloodthirsty God then they would have done what all there neighbours did because of their bloodthirsty gods. There was a difference between Jehovah and Baal, Molech, Ashur and that lot.
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There is NO good slavery. Period.
ABSOLUTELY....... but it may have been a necessary step to where we are. That is what serious scholarship of the ancient world and human societal development has concluded anyway.
Now i am happy to debate the "may have been necessary" aspect but you seem to think that there were NO REASONS other than some brutal psychopathic obsession from the God of the bible to enslave people. Whenever i bring up social, economic or geo-political reasons you REFUSE to address them.
Try and flesh out an economic model without some form of bondage in the ancient world.... IT CAN NOT BE DONE. And if you think it could have then put your words on the page and we will see how far we get.... Now that one is a challenge.
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.Just realized you had mentioned Roman slavery as somehow a nicer form of slavery. Is that the form of slavery god sanctioned? No. It is a rather poor defense of god to point out that the Romans had a more moral system than he did. You might want to rethink that one.
Was the sending of criminals and those who the Romans would consider domestic terrorists to forced labour a moral decision or not? The fact that many various forms of it have been debated and parsed by many cultures, societies and nations shows that it is anything but a black and white issue.
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Is the Sweat Shop system, which is a form of economic slavery an immoral thing or has it allowed an entire generation to begin the climb to modernity.... is that black and white?
I was hoping that we could wade into the Grey on this topic and jot just repeat the mantra slavery is bad as if that is actually saying anything
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it would be unkind not to point out that your arguments do not even begin to hold water in regard to god's stance on slavery. If you continue to use these on other atheists, some will not be so kind in their rebuttals, and I will have played an indirect part in that by not having told you.
What would be kind and what would prove to me that you are correct is a WORKABLE alternative.
It seems your ONLY point is that slavery was/is Bad.... well duh.
If you have an unkind rebuttal that shows an alternative then have at it.
Peace