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The Creationistic Method and Why It Is Fraudulent

gnostic

The Lost One
God could have used evolution to change species? Correct but God did not plant life, the angels planted life, God just caused the evolutionary change events (Punctuated Equilibrium) to happen.
Ok...

Your question, is what people would call “theistic evolution”. That god is the driving force to change in species.

...but can you provide any evidence to what you have just claimed above?

This is where creationists repeatedly fail to do - to provide evidences to verify what they claim.

And even if you were to believe in theistic evolution, the “theistic” part to evolution is merely conjecture, not science.

Science is more than just logic. The logic need to be backed by observable and verifiable evidences, either by finding the evidences or by experiments.

It is not science, because you would not only need evidences for evolution, but also show evidences to the existence of god (hence, to theism), and clear verifiable evidences that god actually have a hand to making species evolve.

The thing is that you cannot “test” god.

This is why scientists leave out god, when they formulate any hypothesis or theory: God (or any other deity for that matter) is simply untestable.

You cannot test God any more than you can test unicorn, fairy or demon.

Science rely on being able to test any logical statement, any explanation, any prediction, any mathematical formula or equation. If you cannot test it, then it isn’t science.

What you are claiming are merely belief and faith, no differences from personal opinions.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The Bible does contain a lot of history. The cities destroyed by the Hebrews in the desert during the Exodus have been found right where Moses had written that they were, for example.
So what.

In all sources (Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian, Assyrian) to the story of Gilgamesh, it mentioned the city of Uruk, a city that Gilgamesh ruled.

Yes, the city exist, historically and archaeologically, but does that mean the story of Gilgamesh to be fact?

Does that mean all the Sumerian gods, like Enki, Shamash, Inanna, etc, all exist too? There are archaeological remains of temples to An and Inanna in Uruk, wouldn’t that be evidences to their existence?

Likewise, Homer mentioned many cities that exist in his time, and some that even exist centuries before his time, like the Middle and Late Bronze Age, like Thebes, Argos, Mycenae, Athens, Knossos, and even Troy, but does that mean the Trojan war took place?

Just because the bible include cities that exist, doesn’t mean mean the stories, like any miracle, to be true.

It would be like saying London is a real city, which Rowling described in her Harry Potter series, therefore Harry, Abus Dumbledore, Voldemort, centaurs, dragons are all real too.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The bible is certainly not entirely wrong? So, what parts are correct and what parts are incorrect then? Let me guess, the parts that you don't like have to be incorrect, right?
In 2 Kings 15 & 16, mentioned two kings (Pekah and Rezin) attacking Judah, and laying Jerusalem under siege, and Ahaz’s Kingdom, only through intervention of the Assyrian army of
Tiglath-Pileser III.

That can be historically verified, through Assyrian sources.

That’s independent sources.

Not everything regarding to that war can be verified, like Isaiah’s part in the story, in Isaiah 7 & 8.

Sometimes the bible check out, but sometimes it doesn’t. And sometimes it is wrong.

For instance, gospel of Matthew stated that Jesus was born at the time when Herod the Great was still alive. The gospel of Luke say the thing too, but then contradict by saying it took place when the census in Judaea took place. But historically that’s wrong, because the only census taking place, happened 10 years after Herod’s death (4 BCE), when Augustus banished Archelaus and turn Judaea into a new Roman province (6CE).

There were no two censuses, and Publius Sulpicius Quirinius (6 – 12 CE) was never appointed governor to Syria, twice, as some Christians have claimed.

When Herod was still alive, Gaius Sentius Saturninus (9 – 7/6 BC) and Publius Quinctilius Varus (7/6 – 4 BCE), not Quirinius. Quirinius was governor of Galatia at that time (12 – 1 BCE), and between 5 and 3 BCE, he was putting down the Homonadense insurrections in Galatia and Cilicia.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
In 2 Kings 15 & 16, mentioned two kings (Pekah and Rezin) attacking Judah, and laying Jerusalem under siege, and Ahaz’s Kingdom, only through intervention of the Assyrian army of
Tiglath-Pileser III.

That can be historically verified, through Assyrian sources.

That’s independent sources.

Not everything regarding to that war can be verified, like Isaiah’s part in the story, in Isaiah 7 & 8.

Sometimes the bible check out, but sometimes it doesn’t. And sometimes it is wrong.

For instance, gospel of Matthew stated that Jesus was born at the time when Herod the Great was still alive. The gospel of Luke say the thing too, but then contradict by saying it took place when the census in Judaea took place. But historically that’s wrong, because the only census taking place, happened 10 years after Herod’s death (4 BCE), when Augustus banished Archelaus and turn Judaea into a new Roman province (6CE).

There were no two censuses, and Publius Sulpicius Quirinius (6 – 12 CE) was never appointed governor to Syria, twice, as some Christians have claimed.

When Herod was still alive, Gaius Sentius Saturninus (9 – 7/6 BC) and Publius Quinctilius Varus (7/6 – 4 BCE), not Quirinius. Quirinius was governor of Galatia at that time (12 – 1 BCE), and between 5 and 3 BCE, he was putting down the Homonadense insurrections in Galatia and Cilicia.

Kings 15 and 16 can be verified by Assyrian sources? So, to you, old books and chiseled stories on walls is verification?

Sometimes the bible checks out, the other times it doesn't, and sometimes it's wrong? Correct.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Ok...

Your question, is what people would call “theistic evolution”. That god is the driving force to change in species.

...but can you provide any evidence to what you have just claimed above?

This is where creationists repeatedly fail to do - to provide evidences to verify what they claim.

And even if you were to believe in theistic evolution, the “theistic” part to evolution is merely conjecture, not science.

Science is more than just logic. The logic need to be backed by observable and verifiable evidences, either by finding the evidences or by experiments.

It is not science, because you would not only need evidences for evolution, but also show evidences to the existence of god (hence, to theism), and clear verifiable evidences that god actually have a hand to making species evolve.

The thing is that you cannot “test” god.

This is why scientists leave out god, when they formulate any hypothesis or theory: God (or any other deity for that matter) is simply untestable.

You cannot test God any more than you can test unicorn, fairy or demon.

Science rely on being able to test any logical statement, any explanation, any prediction, any mathematical formula or equation. If you cannot test it, then it isn’t science.

What you are claiming are merely belief and faith, no differences from personal opinions.

Can I provide any evidence that God causes change in species? Absolutely, the museum's are full of it. But, of course, you won't accept that or any other evidence, so, go on with your life.

The failue to prove God to someone who will never accept God is where creationists fail? It's not us who is failing, you just don't know it and when you do realize it, it's too late.

Science is more than just logic? It's not logic at all. Logic does not mean truth. You atheists throw that word around as if it's some ultimate and pure truth. It's not.

Logic needs to be backed by observable and verifiable evidence? String theory has nothing to verify it. Nothing at all. It's just a bunch of math, some of which might be correct and some of it predicts things we don't see. So, is it logical or not?

Experiments prove that chemicals and minerals do not come to life in test tubes, so, where did life come from then?

I have to show that God existed and had a hand in making species evolve? I really don't. You think you're way, way, way more important to the universe than you really are.

The thing is that you cannot test God? I know that. The atheists know that as well, that's why they keep asking for evidence or proof because they know there is nothing, well, except the universe and life, but they discount all that because it's not enough, they require "outside" evidence.

Scientists leave out God when they formulate any hypothesis? Maybe that's why they're having so much trouble figuring out this String Theory stuff? When doing their math and they hit an infinity they don't know that the infinity is God.

Science relies on being able to test any logical statement? Oh really? Okay, tell me what is logical about the dual slit experiment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment

I can't wait to hear it.

What I am claiming is merely belief and faith? Do you inspect a bridge before you drive over it? If not, then you are using faith. Do you perform tests on your food for poisons before eating it? No? That's called faith. Do you go to public places? That's faith that others won't kill you. Do you verify every science experiment in all of history? No? Faith. The only real difference is that you put your faith into people.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Can I provide any evidence that God causes change in species? Absolutely, the museum's are full of it. But, of course, you won't accept that or any other evidence, so, go on with your life.

Unless you can put God in the museum, anything in the museum is pure speculation and faith.
 
Calculate with weapons.

1000 Ebola viruses + 1500 Ebola viruses = a
1500 Smallpox viruses + 2000 Smallpox viruses = b
2300 Quassams + 1900 Quassams = c
500 Termonuclear bombs + 300 Termonuclear bombs = d
5000 Destroyers + 2050 Destroyers = e
400 Battletanks + 6000 Battletanks = f
580 V2's + 590 V2's = g
3000 Crusaders + 7000 Crusaders = h
10000 tomahawks + 1900 tomahawks = i
490 WMD's +580 WMD's = j

Can someone find a, b, c, d, f, g, h, i, and j for me

I cant find them anywere...


similar.

1. "Let there be light."

Lets do another way. "Let there be a mag light."

Can someone find that mag light for me?

2. Let there be day and night

3. Let there be a roof and a floor.

4. Divide the waters

5. Create fish.



so we need a crack dog finding all these things for me.

Creation is proven.
 
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If you read my posts you will see I have solved the Creationism versus Evolution problem.

"The bible describes creation as a 'story' and stories are summaries where time has been compressed. God can do time travel as clearly seen in the numerous prophesies in the bible and where John the apostle was taken to the future to see the end times. God made the earth in 6 days of HIS world. Each day HE travels through time to different stages of the earth's progress to complete HIS creation."

Genesis 2:4 Such was the story of heaven and earth as they were created. At the time when Yahweh God made earth and heaven

Note the word story and time in the above verse to highlight this. Creationism is a story (time compressed)
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Can I provide any evidence that God causes change in species? Absolutely, the museum's are full of it. But, of course, you won't accept that or any other evidence, so, go on with your life.

It is fallacious to say that anything around us is evidence for a god. That's one possibility, but not the only one. Evidence is that which makes one or more competing hypotheses more or less likely. Hubble's red shift data couldn't distinguish between the steady state hypothesis and the Big Bang theory, so it was evidence for neither. The discovery of the cosmic microwave background did, however, distinguish between the two and so served as evidence that one was correct and the other not.

The failue to prove God to someone who will never accept God is where creationists fail? It's not us who is failing, you just don't know it and when you do realize it, it's too late.

There is no reason to believe that.

I have to show that God existed and had a hand in making species evolve? I really don't.

Then you've offered nothing but an opinion and no reason to share it with you.

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens

The thing is that you cannot test God? I know that. The atheists know that as well, that's why they keep asking for evidence or proof because they know there is nothing, well, except the universe and life, but they discount all that because it's not enough, they require "outside" evidence.

No, we're atheists because we are rational skeptics first: We need a reason to believe, and there is no reason to believe that gods exist.

The likeliest reason why no theist can provide support for his beliefs is because they are wrong. If one holds an incorrect idea, he can never demonstrate it. If a child believes that Santa will be coming down his chimney Christmas eve, as hard as he may try to prove it, he cannot.

Presents under the tree will convince him that he was right just as the universe and life convince you that there must be a god, and for the same reason: Faith based confirmation bias. It shows what you already believe. They say that seeing is believing, but only for the person who goes from evidence to conclusion. But for the person who believes by faith, believing becomes seeing. He will see what he believed without evidence.

Scientists leave out God when they formulate any hypothesis?

They leave out everything that has no explanatory value. Gods simply aren't needed in science, so why include them? No scientific theory mentions a god or the supernatural, and they work well without such an idea.

What I am claiming is merely belief and faith? Do you inspect a bridge before you drive over it? If not, then you are using faith. Do you perform tests on your food for poisons before eating it? No? That's called faith. Do you go to public places? That's faith that others won't kill you. Do you verify every science experiment in all of history? No? Faith. The only real difference is that you put your faith into people.

This is an equivocation fallacy. You are conflating justified belief and unjustified belief by calling them both faith. It's about like calling two different people named Faith one person.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If you read my posts you will see I have solved the Creationism versus Evolution problem.

"The bible describes creation as a 'story' and stories are summaries where time has been compressed. God can do time travel as clearly seen in the numerous prophesies in the bible and where John the apostle was taken to the future to see the end times. God made the earth in 6 days of HIS world. Each day HE travels through time to different stages of the earth's progress to complete HIS creation."

Genesis 2:4 Such was the story of heaven and earth as they were created. At the time when Yahweh God made earth and heaven

Note the word story and time in the above verse to highlight this. Creationism is a story (time compressed)
Does he have a TARDIS that looks like a blue box?
The-TARDIS-Weeping-Angel-11th-Silhouette-doctor-who-35538118-500-500.jpg
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
It is fallacious to say that anything around us is evidence for a god. That's one possibility, but not the only one. Evidence is that which makes one or more competing hypotheses more or less likely. Hubble's red shift data couldn't distinguish between the steady state hypothesis and the Big Bang theory, so it was evidence for neither. The discovery of the cosmic microwave background did, however, distinguish between the two and so served as evidence that one was correct and the other not.



There is no reason to believe that.



Then you've offered nothing but an opinion and no reason to share it with you.

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens



No, we're atheists because we are rational skeptics first: We need a reason to believe, and there is no reason to believe that gods exist.

The likeliest reason why no theist can provide support for his beliefs is because they are wrong. If one holds an incorrect idea, he can never demonstrate it. If a child believes that Santa will be coming down his chimney Christmas eve, as hard as he may try to prove it, he cannot.

Presents under the tree will convince him that he was right just as the universe and life convince you that there must be a god, and for the same reason: Faith based confirmation bias. It shows what you already believe. They say that seeing is believing, but only for the person who goes from evidence to conclusion. But for the person who believes by faith, believing becomes seeing. He will see what he believed without evidence.



They leave out everything that has no explanatory value. Gods simply aren't needed in science, so why include them? No scientific theory mentions a god or the supernatural, and they work well without such an idea.



This is an equivocation fallacy. You are conflating justified belief and unjustified belief by calling them both faith. It's about like calling two different people named Faith one person.

It is fallacious to say that anything around us is evidence of God? You have made a claim. I will look at your evidence for this. Can you provide it?

God is not the only possibility? He is, you just can't see it because you're not supposed to see it. There is a large tribe in Africa. The chief's son was sent to Canada to go to college. The chief died and the son went back to Africa to be chief. The son told the men that he had seen great things, buildings so high that an arrow could not reach the top and bridges so long that it takes half an hour to walk across. The men said "It is impossible, man cannot build such things".

The discovery of cosmic microwave background radiation served as evidence of the big bang? Don't stars emit radiation though? And aren't stars in every direction that we look? Yep. So, it seems there's a problem with your theory. You're too trusting. You have too much faith in humans who call themselves scientists.

There is no reason to believe that God exists? Keep telling yourself that and the universe will go on without you.

I haven't offered any evidence? Prove anything to me. You pick. Try your best. I bet you can't do it.

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens. What would be evidence? If not the universe then is there anything at all? The Jews chose the golden calf over God then when God sent His Son they slammed the door on Him as well. It seems that humans have to get things a certain way, their way, before they will accept some things.

Atheists need a reason to believe? Lies. You have faith in human strangers every day that they will do things to provide for you. You just didn't get the life you wanted so it's all God's fault.

If one holds an incorrect idea, he can never demonstrate it? Who told you that? You are way too accepting of incorrect atheist arguments. If I say that a box is full of candy but it's really empty, all we have to do is open the box and see.

If a child believes that Santa will be coming down his chimney Christmas eve he cannot prove it? The parents are Santa. Just because some parts of the story are not true does not mean that the whole story is untrue.

If you have no faith then I assume you grow all of your own food and live in a home that you built yourself and you avoid others and you make your own clothes and never drive across a bridge or go into buildings?

Scientists leave out everything that has no explanatory value? Who told you that? They can't figure out gravity or dark energy or dark matter or string theory. Have they left them out?

Gods simply aren't needed in science? Einstein is your god, and Plank, and Newton.

No scientific theory mentions a god and they work well without such ideas? They don't work well. There's a huge gap between quantum physics and relative physics, the math for one does not work for the other. The String Theory math keeps proving an infinity and the scientists keep dismissing it as impossible.

I am conflating a justified belief and an unjustified belief? Prove it.

Faith: complete trust in someone or something.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
It is fallacious to say that anything around us is evidence of God? You have made a claim. I will look at your evidence for this. Can you provide it?
No more and no less than it is fallacious to say that anything around us is evidence of a Pink Unicorn, Leprechauns, Garden Fairies, or similar mythical/extra dimensional beings.
God is not the only possibility?
As I noted.
He is, you just can't see it because you're not supposed to see it.
Ah, the last refuge of the believing rascal: the trickster god ... Hi Loki!
There is a large tribe in Africa. The chief's son was sent to Canada to go to college. The chief died and the son went back to Africa to be chief. The son told the men that he had seen great things, buildings so high that an arrow could not reach the top and bridges so long that it takes half an hour to walk across. The men said "It is impossible, man cannot build such things".
Good example of the fallacy of an argument from incredulity. What you missed was what the men actually said: "it is impossible, man cannot build such things, you must have traveled to the land of the gods.
The discovery of cosmic microwave background radiation served as evidence of the big bang? Don't stars emit radiation though? And aren't stars in every direction that we look? Yep. So, it seems there's a problem with your theory. You're too trusting. You have too much faith in humans who call themselves scientists.
When you are in the midst of a swarm of bees you hear buzzing in every direction, what's the big deal?
There is no reason to believe that God exists? Keep telling yourself that and the universe will go on without you.
The only reason there is for a god to exist is to satisfy your arguments from incredulity and ignorance, issues that are entirely yours and not mine in the least.
I haven't offered any evidence? Prove anything to me. You pick. Try your best. I bet you can't do it.
Science does not prove, it disproves and/or indicates the likely and unlikely.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens. What would be evidence? If not the universe then is there anything at all? The Jews chose the golden calf over God then when God sent His Son they slammed the door on Him as well. It seems that humans have to get things a certain way, their way, before they will accept some things.
You must start at the begining ... there was no Moses since there was no Exodus and makes your golden calf damned unlikely too.
Atheists need a reason to believe? Lies. You have faith in human strangers every day that they will do things to provide for you. You just didn't get the life you wanted so it's all God's fault.
I have no belief, but that does not mean that I don't understand probabilities. I got all I wanted out of life and more ... no god involved.
If one holds an incorrect idea, he can never demonstrate it? Who told you that? You are way too accepting of incorrect atheist arguments. If I say that a box is full of candy but it's really empty, all we have to do is open the box and see.
Yep ... not god there, unless it is the trickster.
If a child believes that Santa will be coming down his chimney Christmas eve he cannot prove it? The parents are Santa. Just because some parts of the story are not true does not mean that the whole story is untrue.
No part of the story is true though, that's what you're missing.
If you have no faith then I assume you grow all of your own food and live in a home that you built yourself and you avoid others and you make your own clothes and never drive across a bridge or go into buildings?
Again you are demanding faith when all that's required is a grasp of probability. I live on an island. It is an hour and a half to COSTCO. I have no faith that a given food item will be in the store ... it often is not and so I have a Plan B. I always have a Plan B for things that I know have a low probability of being in stock. I have a religious friend that often rides with me, he actually prays for items to be available, I have noticed no correlation between his prayers and their intensity and the inventory ... my system is far superior.
[/quote]
Scientists leave out everything that has no explanatory value? Who told you that? They can't figure out gravity or dark energy or dark matter or string theory. Have they left them out?

Gods simply aren't needed in science? Einstein is your god, and Plank, and Newton.
That is too foolish to warrant comment.
No scientific theory mentions a god and they work well without such ideas? They don't work well. There's a huge gap between quantum physics and relative physics, the math for one does not work for the other. The String Theory math keeps proving an infinity and the scientists keep dismissing it as impossible.
Here we go again, incredulity and ignorance.
I am conflating a justified belief and an unjustified belief? Prove it.
It is generally accepted that the obvious (e.g., clearly it follows that ...) need not be proven.
Faith: complete trust in someone or something.
Faith, belief in what you know ain't so. - Mark Twain.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
No more and no less than it is fallacious to say that anything around us is evidence of a Pink Unicorn, Leprechauns, Garden Fairies, or similar mythical/extra dimensional beings.

As I noted.

Ah, the last refuge of the believing rascal: the trickster god ... Hi Loki!

Good example of the fallacy of an argument from incredulity. What you missed was what the men actually said: "it is impossible, man cannot build such things, you must have traveled to the land of the gods.

When you are in the midst of a swarm of bees you hear buzzing in every direction, what's the big deal?
The only reason there is for a god to exist is to satisfy your arguments from incredulity and ignorance, issues that are entirely yours and not mine in the least.
Science does not prove, it disproves and/or indicates the likely and unlikely.
You must start at the begining ... there was no Moses since there was no Exodus and makes your golden calf damned unlikely too.
I have no belief, but that does not mean that I don't understand probabilities. I got all I wanted out of life and more ... no god involved.
Yep ... not god there, unless it is the trickster.
No part of the story is true though, that's what you're missing.

Again you are demanding faith when all that's required is a grasp of probability. I live on an island. It is an hour and a half to COSTCO. I have no faith that a given food item will be in the store ... it often is not and so I have a Plan B. I always have a Plan B for things that I know have a low probability of being in stock. I have a religious friend that often rides with me, he actually prays for items to be available, I have noticed no correlation between his prayers and their intensity and the inventory ... my system is far superior.
That is too foolish to warrant comment.
Here we go again, incredulity and ignorance.
It is generally accepted that the obvious (e.g., clearly it follows that ...) need not be proven.
Faith, belief in what you know ain't so. - Mark Twain.

Evidence of God is fallacious? And the atheists determine what's fallacious and what isn't?

So, Loki is your god. Your decision is noted. You'd better hope you're right.

The men actually said "It is impossible, man cannot build such things, you must have travelled to the land of the gods"? No, they ended it with "Only God can do such things".

What is the big deal if there is radiation coming from every direction? The big deal is that you can't say it's evidence of a big bang if it's produced by stars, that would be one of your fallacious arguments.

The only reason there is a God to exist is to satisfy my arguments from incredulity and ignorance? Once again you have made a claim, I will look at your evidence. Do you have some this time?

Science does not disprove? Right, to you gravity is still a theory, and the earth being round and all that is just likely.

There was no Moses? There's more evidence that Moses existed than you exist now.

You have no belief? I couldn't have said it better myself.

You got all you wanted out of life and more, no God involved? Then there is nothing else for you to do and no reason for you to see anymore of the universe. You can be deleted.

No part of the Santa story is true? For many kids their parents were Santa but, I guess not for you. Now things are making sense.

I am demanding faith instead of probability? Probability has it's place, when your child gets sick and you hope they get better it's not a math equation.

Your religious friend actually prays for items to be in stock in the store? The prayer's make him feel that someone is listening.

"What if God was one of us." - Joan Osborne

Are all of you mathematician's so dry, without any color whatsoever, you think in only black and white. No wonder you don't get it. No traditionalist scientist will ever figure out String Theory. You're going to have to go way outside the box to get it. There really is no spoon.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Evidence of God is fallacious? And the atheists determine what's fallacious and what isn't?
What better proof for a god do you have than is possessed by those who assign that status to constructs that you consider to be fables. Do not forget that you too are an atheist, when it comes to all those thousands of constructs. The only difference twixt you and I is that I am an atheist concerning one more construct than you are, that's about a 0.01% difference, two orders of magnitude less the genetic difference between you and a chimpanzee.
So, Loki is your god. Your decision is noted. You'd better hope you're right.
I have no god, but people like you with an affection for the Loki construct have long been considered heretical by most Christian scholars.
The men actually said "It is impossible, man cannot build such things, you must have travelled to the land of the gods"? No, they ended it with "Only God can do such things".
Either way, it no matter ... same/same.
What is the big deal if there is radiation coming from every direction? The big deal is that you can't say it's evidence of a big bang if it's produced by stars, that would be one of your fallacious arguments.

The only reason there is a God to exist is to satisfy my arguments from incredulity and ignorance? Once again you have made a claim, I will look at your evidence. Do you have some this time?
The evidence is rather clear, the only arguments that you make are logical fallacies of the incredulity and ignorance flavors.
Science does not disprove? Right, to you gravity is still a theory, and the earth being round and all that is just likely.
From the American Association for the Advancement of Science:
A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory". It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.

Note that the term theory would not be appropriate for describing untested but intricate hypotheses or even scientific models.

Not also that Evolution has reached the rank of a theory, but gravity .... in point of fact, has not.
There was no Moses? There's more evidence that Moses existed than you exist now.
Please, enlighten us.
You have no belief? I couldn't have said it better myself.

You got all you wanted out of life and more, no God involved? Then there is nothing else for you to do and no reason for you to see anymore of the universe. You can be deleted.
Is that a threat?
No part of the Santa story is true? For many kids their parents were Santa but, I guess not for you. Now things are making sense.
I suppose your folks slid down the chimney? Now I see why you favor the trickster god.
I am demanding faith instead of probability? Probability has it's place, when your child gets sick and you hope they get better it's not a math equation.
Actually if your child gets sick you best hope for a cure is a physician who has a superb grasp of the probabilities, without that your consulting a quack
.
Your religious friend actually prays for items to be in stock in the store? The prayer's make him feel that someone is listening.
That's exactly the point ... no one is (except me).
"What if God was one of us." - Joan Osborne
Interesting since she's fallen RC turned Buddhist. BTW: song is by Eric Bazilian who describes himself as, "Not at all religious."
Are all of you mathematician's so dry, without any color whatsoever, you think in only black and white. No wonder you don't get it. No traditionalist scientist will ever figure out String Theory. You're going to have to go way outside the box to get it. There really is no spoon.
Mathematics is only dry to those who fail to understand it. BTW: It is the String Model or String Hypothesis ... not been promoted to theory except in things like Time Magazine.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
If you read my posts you will see I have solved the Creationism versus Evolution problem.

"The bible describes creation as a 'story' and stories are summaries where time has been compressed. God can do time travel as clearly seen in the numerous prophesies in the bible and where John the apostle was taken to the future to see the end times. God made the earth in 6 days of HIS world. Each day HE travels through time to different stages of the earth's progress to complete HIS creation."

Genesis 2:4 Such was the story of heaven and earth as they were created. At the time when Yahweh God made earth and heaven

Note the word story and time in the above verse to highlight this. Creationism is a story (time compressed)
* scratches temple *

I don’t know if you are being serious or you are joking. :shrug:
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
What better proof for a god do you have than is possessed by those who assign that status to constructs that you consider to be fables. Do not forget that you too are an atheist, when it comes to all those thousands of constructs. The only difference twixt you and I is that I am an atheist concerning one more construct than you are, that's about a 0.01% difference, two orders of magnitude less the genetic difference between you and a chimpanzee.
I have no god, but people like you with an affection for the Loki construct have long been considered heretical by most Christian scholars.
Either way, it no matter ... same/same.
The evidence is rather clear, the only arguments that you make are logical fallacies of the incredulity and ignorance flavors.

From the American Association for the Advancement of Science:
A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory". It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.

Note that the term theory would not be appropriate for describing untested but intricate hypotheses or even scientific models.

Not also that Evolution has reached the rank of a theory, but gravity .... in point of fact, has not.
Please, enlighten us.
Is that a threat?

I suppose your folks slid down the chimney? Now I see why you favor the trickster god.
Actually if your child gets sick you best hope for a cure is a physician who has a superb grasp of the probabilities, without that your consulting a quack
That's exactly the point ... no one is (except me).
Interesting since she's fallen RC turned Buddhist. BTW: song is by Eric Bazilian who describes himself as, "Not at all religious."
Mathematics is only dry to those who fail to understand it. BTW: It is the String Model or String Hypothesis ... not been promoted to theory except in things like Time Magazine.

We are both the same except for the belief in God? We are not the same. We are about as different as two beings can be. I dance in the rain. You don't want to get your clothes wet. And I don't just believe in God. I know there are many angels, each with differing extraordinary abilities. I know the universe is full of intelligent life. You think it's almost empty other than some microbes that you're superior to when the truth is you're near the bottom of a very long list.

You have no god? You said it.

The evidence is clear that there is no God? You've allowed your mind to over inflate your ego and fool you into believing that you are smarter and more important than you really are. Your only comparison is humans and animals.

The theory of biological evolution is more than just a theory? It's not accepted in the scientific community that life evolved on it's own from chemicals and minerals.

A Google search for Moses has 43 million results. Whatever your name is I doubt you can compete with that.

Is is a threat that there is no reason for you to see anymore of the universe? You could call it a "theory", hehe...

You suppose that parents who give their children presents for Christmas slid down the chimney? Probably not. You're very black and white, very bland, I bet you don't even sing in the car.

If my child gets sick the best hope is a physician who has a superb grasp of the probabilities? And what if my child is the 1 in a 1,000 who survived?

No one is listening when your friend prays? You have made a claim. I will look at your evidence for this claim. Do you have any? How many areas of the universe have you been to so that you would know the answer?

Joan Osborne is a Roman Catholic turned Buddhist? Good for her. Almost anything is better than being an RC.

Mathematics is dry only to people who don't understand it? I suppose that's true. I would be bored at your parties with everyone trying to recite Pi farther than others.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is fallacious to say that anything around us is evidence of God? You have made a claim. I will look at your evidence for this. Can you provide it?

I already provided the argument in the words that followed that comment.

God is not the only possibility? He is, you just can't see it because you're not supposed to see it.

A godless universe and reality are logically possible and may in fact be the case.

The discovery of cosmic microwave background radiation served as evidence of the big bang? Don't stars emit radiation though? And aren't stars in every direction that we look? Yep. So, it seems there's a problem with your theory.

The theory is correct. The discovery of the CMB was not its only confirmation.

Prove anything to me. You pick. Try your best. I bet you can't do it.

Common ground at last. I am sure that you are correct. Proving is a form of teaching, and having something proven to you is a form of learning. The activity requires the cooperation of the student. One cannot prove anything to a person with a faith based stake in not believing.

You just didn't get the life you wanted so it's all God's fault.

Actually, I've enjoyed an excellent life, and it's never been better than now. This was in large part due to leaving Christianity and faith based thinking, and returning to the values of secular humanism. The worst decision I ever made was during my Christian years, and was based purely in faith in God.

I am conflating a justified belief and an unjustified belief? Prove it.

You already did.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
We are both the same except for the belief in God? We are not the same. We are about as different as two beings can be. I dance in the rain. You don't want to get your clothes wet. And I don't just believe in God. I know there are many angels, each with differing extraordinary abilities. I know the universe is full of intelligent life. You think it's almost empty other than some microbes that you're superior to when the truth is you're near the bottom of a very long list.
We are the same with respect to belief in all but one of the many "gods" that have been worshiped, not the same in all ways. Clearly there are major differences in other areas, for example, I live by reasoned thought and you jump to non-evidence based conclusions about everything from the important stuff to others' dancing habits.
You have no god? You said it.

The evidence is clear that there is no God? You've allowed your mind to over inflate your ego and fool you into believing that you are smarter and more important than you really are. Your only comparison is humans and animals.
You are the one with the over inflated view of your place in the universe, I recognize that humans are just one more type of animal while you are insisting that you are something more grandiose.
The theory of biological evolution is more than just a theory? It's not accepted in the scientific community that life evolved on it's own from chemicals and minerals.
There are enough fibs and slips in your claims to not be making more stuff up. Abiogenesis, while not completely understood, is universally accepted within the scientific community.
A Google search for Moses has 43 million results. Whatever your name is I doubt you can compete with that.
And that proves what, beyond your love of logical fallacies? That is an argument from authority and proves nothing. All it proves is your lack of research acumen since a google search for "Moses" would hit on anyone with that name regardless of surname (e.g., Moses Malone) and a search for the fable's given name, "Móshe" yields less than 3,000 hits.

In any case:

There is a common misconception that the Israelites were in Egypt for over four hundred years, that Moses led them out of Egypt and that there was an epic Exodus that ended with the conquest of Canaan.

We have extensive records from Egypt throughout the Late Bronze Age, both in the form of official and commercial documents and records, so we ought to be able to find evidence that the Israelite people were held captive or evidence of the plagues, theft of large quantities of jewellery and other valuables, escape of over two million slaves (or even a smaller and more plausible but still substantial number) and the destruction of an entire army in pursuit. There is no such evidence. Some say that is probably because the Egyptians would not have recorded a humiliating loss, but archaeologists have scoured the social and commercial records of the Late Bronze Age, and found nothing.

Indirect evidence for Moses would be archaeological evidence of a conquest of the Canaanite cities towards the end of the Late Bronze Age, but there is none. Several cities mentioned in the Book of Joshua, such as Jericho and Ai, had already been abandoned long before the Israelite conquest purportedly occurred. With no conquest, there could not have been a biblical Exodus, and with no Exodus there could not have been a biblical Moses.

The only evidence we have of Moses is in the Bible, where it has all the hallmarks of myth. Perhaps to improve the credibility of the story of the Exodus from Egypt, the Pentateuch books were eventually attributed to Moses, although they were clearly written by multiple authors living at much later times than Moses would have done.

Some historians accept that the legend of Moses and the Exodus could have a core of truth if that is based on just a small band of escaping slaves, because the ancient Egyptian writings say that the Midianites worshipped a storm God they called YHW — a name very similar to the Hebrew God YHWH. They suggest that the escapees could have been saved from death in the Sinai desert by the Midianites, who introduced them to the Midianite god YHW. When the escaping slaves had recovered, they could have taken news of YHW with them as they made their way north, to return to their compatriots in Judah. Was one of these slaves called Moses? We will probably never know. (thanks Dick Harfield).

Is is a threat that there is no reason for you to see anymore of the universe? You could call it a "theory", hehe...
I see all there is to see, I don't need to make stuff up just to feel important, as you seem to do.
You suppose that parents who give their children presents for Christmas slid down the chimney? Probably not.
So you admit that your argument was balderdash.
You're very black and white, very bland, I bet you don't even sing in the car.
There you go again, assuming facts that are not in evidence.
If my child gets sick the best hope is a physician who has a superb grasp of the probabilities? And what if my child is the 1 in a 1,000 who survived?
That is not a logical construct, that is a non sequitur.
No one is listening when your friend prays? You have made a claim.
No, I have provided data. You may question my conclusions, that is your right, but you may not question my data.
I will look at your evidence for this claim. Do you have any? How many areas of the universe have you been to so that you would know the answer?
More irrelevance that serves only to distract from your failures.
Joan Osborne is a Roman Catholic turned Buddhist? Good for her. Almost anything is better than being an RC.
A bit prejudiced aren't you?
Mathematics is dry only to people who don't understand it? I suppose that's true. I would be bored at your parties with everyone trying to recite Pi farther than others.
I guess you don't know what real mathematics is, you're stuck at the simple question of how many times does the diameter of a circle fit into its circumference. Most folks that I party with are well beyond simple division.
 
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