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The Church of Atheism is not a religion

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
They are not using the word "church" in the dictionary meaning of the word unless they are asserting they do have a belief system and are engaged in worship based on that belief system. Now maybe this group of atheists do have a belief system and worship according to that belief system.

I quite agree. And that may easily be the point, which I applaud with enthusiasm.

The government decides what is a religion and has for a long long time. The IRS for example has criteria for a church Churches Defined | Internal Revenue Service
Nope. The government decides what to acknowledge as a religion for the purposes of law.

That is an entirely different beast from the real thing, which is fluid to the point that describing it as entirely arbitrary is not really wrong.

Some claim that "religion" as a concept did not even exist until recent centuries, and was defined by social scientists such as anthropologists... in different ways, no less.

If I had to hazard a guess it would be that a group formed around the ironic and arbitrary notions that most religions build themselves upon in order to shed light upon such arbitrariness...

That would be my bet as well.

Yet within the process, formed actual communal bonds with like-minded people... as most human beings seek such a connection.

That is possible, but it is my understanding that there are indeed deliberately atheistic (or at least agnostic) churches out there.

What happens at an atheist church?
You don't have to believe in a god to be a faithful Unitarian Universalist.
Atheist 'mega-churches' look for nonbelievers
Sunday Assembly - Wikipedia
Godless Church Services for Atheists Go Global

And one would expect no less. The idea that churches are a result of belief in God is, at best, overly simplistic.

Tribal instincts take hold and BOOM! Nothing new under the sun.[/QUOTE]
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Why call it Church?
To get the tax benefits that churches enjoy.

The etymology is related to the Greek word Kyriakos, which means "of the Lord".
And the etymology of "chapel" is related to the Latin word "capella," meaning "little cape" (since the first 'chapel' was meant to hold a particular relic).

None of this etymology dictates how we use either word now, though.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
To get the tax benefits that churches enjoy.


And the etymology of "chapel" is related to the Latin word "capella," meaning "little cape" (since the first 'chapel' was meant to hold a particular relic).

None of this etymology dictates how we use either word now, though.

For example here the UAAR enjoys those tax benefits too but it is not called Church

UAAR
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
They are not using the word "church" in the dictionary meaning of the word unless they are asserting they do have a belief system and are engaged in worship based on that belief system. Now maybe this group of atheists do have a belief system and worship according to that belief system.

The government decides what is a religion and has for a long long time. The IRS for example has criteria for a church Churches Defined | Internal Revenue Service
Worship might be a criterion of "Churches," but it is not a criterion of "religious organizations," such as Buddhist temples.

From the last part of the article posted in the OP:


“I find in this case that the minister’s refusal to register the appellant as a charitable organization does not interfere in a manner that is more than trivial or insubstantial with the appellant’s members’ ability to practise their atheistic beliefs,” the decision reads. “The appellant can continue to carry out its purpose and its activities without charitable registration.”

However, she specified that the issue was not the group’s lack of belief in God.

“I agree with the appellant that the requirement that the belief system have faith in a higher Supreme Being or entity and reverence of said Supreme Being is not always required when considering the meaning of ‘religion,’” Rivoalen wrote.

“The appellant rightfully pointed to Buddhism as being a recognized religion that does not believe in a Supreme Being or any entity at all.”​
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
There's something shall I say a bit odd about a group of atheists calling themselves a "church". But it seems that the government in Canada agrees with many people here that atheism is not a belief system.

Church of Atheism denied charitable status as court finds it isn’t a religion


The Federal Court of Appeal has upheld the minister of national revenue’s refusal to register the Church of Atheism of Central Canada as a charity, saying the not-for-profit corporation fails to meet a set of common-law guidelines for what constitutes a religion.

“It did not demonstrate that its belief system is based on a particular and comprehensive system of doctrine and observances,” Justice Marianne Rivoalen said in the decision.
...
The group, she said, had pointed to a document called the “Ten Commandments of Energy” as a sacred text. The revenue minister had not found that convincing, Rivoalen noted, saying the group’s description of the document “provides no detailed information as to the particular and comprehensive system of faith and worship.”

“Given the scope and vagueness of what was asserted here, it was reasonable for the minister to deny the appellant under the heading of ‘advancement of religion.’” Rivoalen said.

I wouldn't have expected the tax exempt status to be narrow enough to exclude such a group (unless they lobby the legislature). Here in the U.S., it's pretty broad, unless you just avoid one of the many categories I guess.

For instance, 501c3:

To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.

It still seems you could make up a huge range of exempt organizations, for instance:

Organizations that may be exempt under Internal Revenue Code section 501(c)(7), if they meet the requirements for exemption, include--
  • College social/academic fraternities and sororities
  • Country clubs
  • Amateur hunting, fishing, tennis, swimming and other sport clubs
  • Dinner clubs that provide a meeting place library, and dining room for members
  • Variety clubs
  • Hobby clubs
  • Homeowners or community associations whose primary function is to own and maintain recreational areas and facilities
Examples of Tax Exempt Social and Recreational Clubs | Internal Revenue Service

So, like if you just want a club, and you aren't for profit and are not going to lobby the legislature, it seems like you could probably get exempt pretty easily here in the U.S.

Not saying national organizations should be given just unlimited presumption of being not-for-profit. I think they ought to be audited routinely. To me, it was surprising the level of accumulated funds the O'Hairs had easy access to for the group American Atheists,, prominently led by the famous Madeline Murray O'Hair of many public lawsuits getting national attention -- that had an incident in which O'Hair and a relative were apparently kidnapped and extorted for a large amount of money, which apparently had been accumulated by the atheist organization, before being murdered. Madalyn Murray O'Hair - Wikipedia I mention the accumulation of funds, because of how it suggests a national level group perhaps should at least be audited, to find out what they are doing, and whether they really are non profit, really aren't lobbying, and such.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I quite agree. And that may easily be the point, which I applaud with enthusiasm.


Nope. The government decides what to acknowledge as a religion for the purposes of law.

That is an entirely different beast from the real thing, which is fluid to the point that describing it as entirely arbitrary is not really wrong.

Some claim that "religion" as a concept did not even exist until recent centuries, and was defined by social scientists such as anthropologists... in different ways, no less.



That would be my bet as well.



That is possible, but it is my understanding that there are indeed deliberately atheistic (or at least agnostic) churches out there.

What happens at an atheist church?
You don't have to believe in a god to be a faithful Unitarian Universalist.
Atheist 'mega-churches' look for nonbelievers
Sunday Assembly - Wikipedia
Godless Church Services for Atheists Go Global

And one would expect no less. The idea that churches are a result of belief in God is, at best, overly simplistic.

Tribal instincts take hold and BOOM! Nothing new under the sun.
Atheist mega-churches? I don't believe it. I'd have to see it for myself.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It can be practiced very much like a religion. And for very much the same reasons.
By some rather unadvisable, dysfunctional defintion of religion, that may probably be said.

Otherwise? Not at all.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
By some rather unadvisable, dysfunctional defintion of religion, that may probably be said.

Otherwise? Not at all.
Religions are collections of dogma, rituals, rules, and habitual practices that are intended to help the participant live their lives according to their chosen conception of "God". If that concept is that "God" does not exist, it is still possible that one might employ any number of similar tools to help them live their lives according to that chosen belief. And there are some atheists that do employ some of these same tools, to do that. Not many, but some. And so by definition, and by logical reasoning, it can be said that atheism can be practiced "religiously". It's not practiced that way in most cases, but it CAN BE, and in some cases, it IT IS.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Religions are collections of dogma, rituals, rules, and habitual practices that are intended to help the participant live their lives according to their chosen conception of "God".

A popular enough definition. Not the best (by a long shot), nor the most defensible, and definitely not the easiest to try to graft atheism into.

But sure, a popular enough definition.

All the same, it destroys your own claim something fierce. I stand impressed.

If that concept is that God does not exist, it is still possible that one might employ any number of similar tools to help them live their lives according to that belief. And there are some atheists that do employ some of these same tools to do that. Not many, but some. And so bu definition, and by logical reasoning, it can be said that atheism can be practiced "religiously". It's not in most cases, but it CAN BE, and in some cases, it IT IS.

Nonsense, and it flies on the face of your own premise.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
A popular enough definition. Not the best (by a long shot), nor the most defensible, and definitely not the easiest to try to graft atheism into.
Actually, it is the better definition, because it clarifies the difference between religion and theology, which a lot of people fail to do both in their minds and in their communication with others. "Religion" refers to an actual practice (action) whereas theology refers to belief (ideology).
But sure, a popular enough definition.

All the same, it destroys your own claim something fierce. I stand impressed.
What claim was that? That religion is about acting on behalf of a theological ideal?
Nonsense, and it flies on the face of your own premise.
I can't help but notice that these bold and insulting proclamations are being left completely unexplained and unsubstantiated. Would you care to clarify them?
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
There's something shall I say a bit odd about a group of atheists calling themselves a "church". But it seems that the government in Canada agrees with many people here that atheism is not a belief system.

Church of Atheism denied charitable status as court finds it isn’t a religion


The Federal Court of Appeal has upheld the minister of national revenue’s refusal to register the Church of Atheism of Central Canada as a charity, saying the not-for-profit corporation fails to meet a set of common-law guidelines for what constitutes a religion.

“It did not demonstrate that its belief system is based on a particular and comprehensive system of doctrine and observances,” Justice Marianne Rivoalen said in the decision.
...
The group, she said, had pointed to a document called the “Ten Commandments of Energy” as a sacred text. The revenue minister had not found that convincing, Rivoalen noted, saying the group’s description of the document “provides no detailed information as to the particular and comprehensive system of faith and worship.”

“Given the scope and vagueness of what was asserted here, it was reasonable for the minister to deny the appellant under the heading of ‘advancement of religion.’” Rivoalen said.

The problem is - no-one can define what a religion is.
In a sense everyone has a form of religion:
1 - we all consider where we came from
2 - we all seek meaning in life
3 - we all consider what happens after we die
4 - we all want some form of moral code.
5 - we all would like to appeal to something higher than ourselves
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
There's something shall I say a bit odd about a group of atheists calling themselves a "church". But it seems that the government in Canada agrees with many people here that atheism is not a belief system.

Church of Atheism denied charitable status as court finds it isn’t a religion


The Federal Court of Appeal has upheld the minister of national revenue’s refusal to register the Church of Atheism of Central Canada as a charity, saying the not-for-profit corporation fails to meet a set of common-law guidelines for what constitutes a religion.

“It did not demonstrate that its belief system is based on a particular and comprehensive system of doctrine and observances,” Justice Marianne Rivoalen said in the decision.
...
The group, she said, had pointed to a document called the “Ten Commandments of Energy” as a sacred text. The revenue minister had not found that convincing, Rivoalen noted, saying the group’s description of the document “provides no detailed information as to the particular and comprehensive system of faith and worship.”

“Given the scope and vagueness of what was asserted here, it was reasonable for the minister to deny the appellant under the heading of ‘advancement of religion.’” Rivoalen said.

I think its not fair to consider them separately and deny equal stance with religion if the entity wishes to.

And they have all the right to call it a church. I believe that an Ecclesiastes is a place of congregation. So they have all the right.

I dont see a valid cause in their agenda of forming a particular entity of this nature, but then the same standard should be set with anyone and everyone.
 
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