The Christian Contradiction, An Example

[joe1776]

I'm more interested in the question behind the question...how to get the interest of a younger audience.

My answer, quit pretending Hell is a literal reality. Hell is metaphoric of the reality of accepting something which contradicts your God-given nature. Teach instead this and what Hell looks like when you approach it (peer pressure, addiction, planetary climate change, school shootings, etc).

I doubt that your metaphoric Hell will have the appeal of Hell as eternal punishment. Heaven (reward) and Hell (punishment) combined to make a very powerful appeal to belief. But, today's audience is not as easily persuaded.

I think some progressive Christian groups are doing as you suggest, but I don't know how well they're doing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

IYHO.

His mercy rejoiced over judgement (James). Sounds like He offered a plea deal.

That would only be the Bible contradicting itself again.

 

[Kenny]

That would only be the Bible contradicting itself again.

IYHO.

You have every right to have a wrong opinion

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, well, all countries have some problems. But that does not look at all lime unhappiness, bloodshed, hell on earth, and such. And it is definetely not reducible to us not believing in God.

Maybe you should make a comparison between quality of life and religiosity. And tell me if there is a correlation. I know that Scandinavia, particularly Denmark score the highest in term f happiness while religiosity is very low. The contrary for places like Uganda, etc.

So, do you see this correlation you are claiming?

Please note: you should consider countries that are secular because of their own free choice, since that is the only reliable societal metric, so don’t come with N. Corea or the ex Soviet Union.

Ciao

- viole

It’s my own personal view that it’s much more difficult to measure these things when we live in countries that are well off and have no real materialistic problems. Because we do not live in or experience th suffering of others we feel there is no real suffering in the world yet there are millions deeply suffering.

If all the world truly followed the teachings of the zprophets then all humanity would be living in comfort and peace. To love one another is from Jesus so applied internationally it could not but produce wonderful results.

 

[Subduction Zone]

IYHO.

You have every right to have a wrong opinion

No, no no. I am unlike creationists in this matter. The self contradiction in the Bible are not quite endless, it simply seems that way.

 

[blü 2]

I agree that we humans can be moved to make moral progress simply out of fear for the consequences.

What about just doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do?

Becoming a priest so you won't go to hell doesn't work for me. It's like voting for Trump so they won't chuck you out of the golf club, morality scarcely comes into it.

 

[Faithofchristian]

When the baptism I attended was made part of the regular Protestant service, I was in the audience when the minister and a 20 year-old woman, who wanted to be a minister, performed a question and answer session.

The minister began by admitting that churches faced the problem of dwindling interest by the younger generation and wondered how his young protege might deal with it.

Her answer began with her personal goal: She didn't want to go to Hell. So, she explained that she would follow the teaching of Jesus and learn to love even atheists regardless of their beliefs. Both she and the minister then reinforced their message of unconditional love.

If either of them realized it, neither mentioned the contradiction in their message. They were both imagining that they were capable of a higher grade of love (unconditional) than the God they worshipped who would send those atheists to Hell to suffer eternally for not accepting Jesus as their savior.

Your thoughts?

Well first of all how does these ministers come by Unconditional love?

Let's for say, That you have something to give away absolutely free, But for someone to have it, they must pay you for it.

The question is, Then how is it free, if people have to pay for it.ok

Now as for Unconditional love, for it to be Unconditional love, then why did Christ Jesus pay the price.by his death on the cross.

For God's love to be Unconditional, then there would have been no reason for Christ Jesus to die on the cross.

By Christ Jesus dieing on the cross, shows there is a condition to God's love, The condition to God's love is this

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

The condition to God's love is( whosoever believes in him) there lays the condition
To obtain God's love, first you have to believe in Christ Jesus, That's the condition to obtain God's love.

Thereby those that teach God's love is Unconditional speaks falsehoods of lies.

Otherwise there would have been no reason at all for Christ Jesus to had died on the cross.
If Gods love is Unconditional.

 

[joe1776]

Well first of all how does these ministers come by Unconditional love?

Let's for say, That you have something to give away absolutely free, But for someone to have it, they must pay you for it.

The question is, Then how is it free, if people have to pay for it.ok

Now as for Unconditional love, for it to be Unconditional love, then why did Christ Jesus pay the price.by his death on the cross.

For God's love to be Unconditional, then there would have been no reason for Christ Jesus to die on the cross.

By Christ Jesus dieing on the cross, shows there is a condition to God's love, The condition to God's love is this

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

The condition to God's love is( whosoever believes in him) there lays the condition
To obtain God's love, first you have to believe in Christ Jesus, That's the condition to obtain God's love.

Thereby those that teach God's love is Unconditional speaks falsehoods of lies.

Otherwise there would have been no reason at all for Christ Jesus to had died on the cross.
If Gods love is Unconditional.

We are agreed on that. The traditional Christian position is that God's love is conditioned upon accepting Jesus as one's savior.

However, it's my understanding that many Protestant US churches, such as the one I attended for a baptism are teaching that the faithful can use Jesus as an exemplar to learn unconditional love. In the OP, I pointed out the contradiction: the idea that a parishioner might achieve a higher grade of love (unconditional) than the god they worshipped (conditional).,

 

[joe1776]

It’s my own personal view that it’s much more difficult to measure these things when we live in countries that are well off and have no real materialistic problems. Because we do not live in or experience th suffering of others we feel there is no real suffering in the world yet there are millions deeply suffering.

If all the world truly followed the teachings of the zprophets then all humanity would be living in comfort and peace. To love one another is from Jesus so applied internationally it could not but produce wonderful results.

Would you agree though that there is no historical evidence that religion is effective in teaching global harmony? Talk is cheap.

 

[Faithofchristian]

We are agreed on that. The traditional Christian position is that God's love is conditioned upon accepting Jesus as one's savior.

However, it's my understanding that many Protestant US churches, such as the one I attended for a baptism are teaching that the faithful can use Jesus as an exemplar to learn unconditional love. In the OP, I pointed out the contradiction: the idea that a parishioner might achieve a higher grade of love (unconditional) than the god they worshipped (conditional).,

But as you pointed out, The Protestant churches teaches God's love is Unconditional.
But that is not what God teaches in his word.
For Christ Jesus said himself in John 3:16.
"That God so loved the world, That he gave his only begotten Son, That whosoever believes in him.
There lays the Condition to God's love, that whosoever believes in Christ Jesus.

Therefore for anyone to obtain God's love must believe in God's Son Christ Jesus.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Would you agree though that there is no historical evidence that religion is effective in teaching global harmony? Talk is cheap.

The Baha’i religion has been successful establishing a world community and uniting people from all religions, races, nationalities and cultures that previously had conflict with one another.

Uniting Humanity | What Bahá’ís Believe

 

[joe1776]

But as you pointed out, The Protestant churches teaches God's love is Unconditional.
But that is not what God teaches in his word.
For Christ Jesus said himself in John 3:16.
"That God so loved the world, That he gave his only begotten Son, That whosoever believes in him.
There lays the Condition to God's love, that whosoever believes in Christ Jesus.

Therefore for anyone to obtain God's love must believe in God's Son Christ Jesus.

Please understand. I'm not interested in debating scripture. I'm not qualified, nor do I care.

I'm willing to assume you're right. If you are, and all Christian churches were to agree, Christianity will die because, with your interpretation of scripture, it worships an unjust god.

But as you pointed out, The Protestant churches teaches God's love is Unconditional.
But that is not what God teaches in his word.
For Christ Jesus said himself in John 3:16.
"That God so loved the world, That he gave his only begotten Son, That whosoever believes in him.
There lays the Condition to God's love, that whosoever believes in Christ Jesus.

Therefore for anyone to obtain God's love must believe in God's Son Christ Jesus.

if your interpretation is correct, and if all Christians were to agree, Christianity would continue to wither and die because you are worshipping an unjust god incapable of genuine love.

Conditional love (I'll love you if you please me) is not genuine love. It is a device that uses one's need for love to coerce compliance. It's manipulative.It's the reward in a reward and punishment manipulation.

Christianity can't survive by offering children and naive adults the choice between reward (Heaven) and punishment (Hell). We humans are losing our naivete with each succeeding generation. The younger generation won't be made to worship a god that would allow them to be punished eternally for picking the wrong religion.

 

[joe1776]

The Baha’i religion has been successful establishing a world community and uniting people from all religions, races, nationalities and cultures that previously had conflict with one another.

Uniting Humanity | What Bahá’ís Believe

I wish you well, but in human history, religion's only undeniable achievement has been its ability to divide humanity into thousands of quarrelling sects. So, for the task of uniting humanity, I think it's obviously the wrong tool for the job.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I wish you well, but in human history, religion's only undeniable achievement has been its ability to divide humanity into thousands of quarrelling sects. So, for the task of uniting humanity, I think it's obviously the wrong tool for the job.

I understand where you’re coming from. Time will tell in this case.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Please understand. I'm not interested in debating scripture. I'm not qualified, nor do I care.
I'm willing to assume you're right. If you are, and all Christian churches were to agree, Christianity will die because, with your interpretation of scripture, it worships an unjust god.

if your interpretation is correct, and if all Christians were to agree, Christianity would continue to wither and die because you are worshipping an unjust god incapable of genuine love.

Conditional love (I'll love you if you please me) is not genuine love. It is a device that uses one's need for love to coerce compliance. It's manipulative.It's the reward in a reward and punishment manipulation.

Christianity can't survive by offering children and naive adults the choice between reward (Heaven) and punishment (Hell). We humans are losing our naivete with each succeeding generation. The younger generation won't be made to worship a god that would allow them to be punished eternally for picking the wrong religion.

Let's see if I'm getting this right,
You said above ( Please understand. I'm not interested in debating scripture. I'm not qualified, nor do I care)

Then how is it that you know whether or not if someone is worshipping a unjust good.

How is that to work ?
Are you in the habit of contradicting yourself or what.
It seems that your saying one things and then saying another thing.

My question again, Are you in the habit of contradicting yourself

 

[BilliardsBall]

Your reply is off-topic since it doesn't represent the traditional Christian position that presented a contradiction with the idea that Jesus taught unconditional love.

Just curious, though. It was reported that, not long before his execution, Ted Bundy accepted Jesus as his savior. If we assume that his act was sincere, do you believe that his sins of brutally murdering as many as 30 young women were then forgiven and he might then enter Heaven as a "perfectly moral person?"

It would depend on whether Jesus died for all people but not Ted Bundy, for all sin but not murder.

 

[joe1776]

Let's see if I'm getting this right,
You said above ( Please understand. I'm not interested in debating scripture. I'm not qualified, nor do I care)

Then how is it that you know whether or not if someone is worshipping a unjust good.

How is that to work ?
Are you in the habit of contradicting yourself or what.
It seems that your saying one things and then saying another thing.

My question again, Are you in the habit of contradicting yourself

When I wrote "Please understand. I'm not interested in debating scripture. I'm not qualified, nor do I care." I had no idea that you would jump to the conclusion that I was denying interest in, or knowledge of, traditional Christian beliefs which are common knowledge among Christians and non-Christians alike. I can't understand how you would reach such an absurd conclusion.

 

[joe1776]

It would depend on whether Jesus died for all people but not Ted Bundy, for all sin but not murder.

Although you seem reluctant to admit it, if his acceptance of Jesus was sincere, and he regretted his sins, Ted Bundy, notorious serial killer ,would qualify as a "perfectly moral person."

We humans only have common sense judgments to work with. You must realize that your position doesn't make sense.

 

[sealchan]

I doubt that your metaphoric Hell will have the appeal of Hell as eternal punishment. Heaven (reward) and Hell (punishment) combined to make a very powerful appeal to belief. But, today's audience is not as easily persuaded.

I think some progressive Christian groups are doing as you suggest, but I don't know how well they're doing.

A metaphorical Hell is a Hell you can literally experience and it comes as soon as you get pregnant, contract an STD, become addicted, etc... That sort of Hell should be a much more "interesting" one as it actually exists.

 

[Faithofchristian]

When I wrote "Please understand. I'm not interested in debating scripture. I'm not qualified, nor do I care." I had no idea that you would jump to the conclusion that I was denying interest in
, or knowledge of, traditional Christian beliefs which are common knowledge among Christians and non-Christians alike. I can't understand how you would reach such an absurd conclusion.

What was quite obvious how I came to that conclusion seeing that you said,
( "Please understand. I'm not interested in debating scripture. I'm not qualified, nor do I care)
So how is anyone to take it, seeing that you did say, that your not interested in debating scripture, I'm not qualified, nor do I care.

So it seems that your contradicting even what you said.