The Christian Contradiction, An Example

[Prestor John]

Why does your description of Hell sound nothing like these from the LDS site?

Hell

How is what I said any different?

Everyone is free to choose where they want to go.

The only thing that you can consider a "punishment" involved with going to Hell is no longer being in God's kingdom.

If it is your goal to avoid God at all costs, you get exactly what you wanted.

How is that a "punishment"?

 

[Faithofchristian]

How is what I said any different?

Everyone is free to choose where they want to go.

The only thing that you can consider a "punishment" involved with going to Hell is no longer being in God's kingdom.

If it is your goal to avoid God at all costs, you get exactly what you wanted.

How is that a "punishment"?

If I may say, there are those, who haven't a clue or idea what hell is or about.

For one thing hell is not a place of torment, As people like to think or say it is.

If hell is a place of torment as people will say and think it is,
Then Christ Jesus didn't do a very good job of defeating hell and destroying hell.

 

[joe1776]

How is what I said any different?

Everyone is free to choose where they want to go.

The only thing that you can consider a "punishment" involved with going to Hell is no longer being in God's kingdom.

If it is your goal to avoid God at all costs, you get exactly what you wanted.

How is that a "punishment"?

Let's look at the opening paragraph for example:

Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory.

A thousand years of torment is punishment. Isn't it?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Reward alone is a good motivator. Punishment is equally good. But the two together are the most powerful motivators in our nature. The invention of Heaven (reward) and Hell (punishment) was sheer genius if recruitment is the first priority.

Reward and punishment could be a motivator, but in Scripture it is ' love ' that motivated Jesus.
The ' reward ' is resurrection as mentioned at 1 Corinthians 15:12-18

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Let's look at the opening paragraph for example:
A thousand years of torment is punishment. Isn't it?

I find there is No Scripture that speaks of a thousand years of torment or torture.
Could you post where such verses are found ______

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If all the world truly followed the teachings of the prophets then all humanity would be living in comfort and peace.
To love one another is from Jesus so applied internationally it could not but produce wonderful results.

What Jesus taught even surpasses the Golden Rule, as found at John 13:34-35.
We are to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
In other words, we are Now to love others even more than self.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Although you seem reluctant to admit it, if his acceptance of Jesus was sincere, and he regretted his sins, Ted Bundy, notorious serial killer ,would qualify as a "perfectly moral person."
We humans only have common sense judgments to work with. You must realize that your position doesn't make sense.

I would Not go as far as to say a perfectly moral person because Acts of the Apostles 24:15 says there will be a resurrection of both the 'righteous and the unrighteous'. The wicked are ' destroyed forever ' - Psalms 92:7
Those counted a righteous one are like those of Matthew 25:37,40.

True, I agree we do have, so at least should have, common-sense judgements to work with.
In addition, we do have God's recorded judgements as found in Scripture.
Even the human judges of Psalms 82 where to use God's recorded judgements as to what was right or wrong.
However, as far a personal judgement is concerned we are Not to impute a bad of a wrong motive to others.

 

[osgart]

Ok, so i fear going to hell and that somehow magically causes me to love God and neighbor.

Or perhaps i am inspired that God loves a wretch like me, and i know i deserve hell just like, everybody else, but God made the way of the Cross which somehow sheds light upon my soul, and establishes victory, the only way for a sinner to repent and enter into Life Everlasting.

So like the Cross is The Way, whereas someone righteous had to make the way possible by being a substitutional sacrifice for a punishment i would otherwise pay for eternally. Instead the punishment is satisfied and the sin debt fully paid, and God's wrath and justice is satisfied by unleashing punishment on God's own Son. Where was Satan?, perhaps the Cross defeated his power too.

So how does one verify this is all accurate and true, by no reasonable means. A book says, and that goes for evidence. As sure as the door in front of me, i am fully responsible by Bible alone to swallow amd believe every story in the Bible is a literal account of history. No outside verification necessary. It says, and it is!

I stand convicted, by the obviousness of the Bible. Ugh! Wheres the reality in that

 

[loverofhumanity]

What Jesus taught even surpasses the Golden Rule, as found at John 13:34-35.
We are to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
In other words, we are Now to love others even more than self.

Beautifully said. You have given me a wonderful insight which I overlooked. On another thread someone posted ‘was Jesus sacrifice a waste’ or something similar but you’re so right that He showed us a perfect example of how to lay down our lives for others. He could very easily have withdrawn His claims to be the Messiah and lived in comfort. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

[Prestor John]

If I may say, there are those, who haven't a clue or idea what hell is or about.

For one thing hell is not a place of torment, As people like to think or say it is.

If hell is a place of torment as people will say and think it is,
Then Christ Jesus didn't do a very good job of defeating hell and destroying hell.

The Lord Jesus Christ overcame Hell by means of the bodily Resurrection.

After He rose from the dead He promised that all people will also one day rise from the dead. This is the "free gift" mentioned in the scriptures.

A prophet by the name of Jacob explained it thusly,

"O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.

And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.

O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit." (2 Nephi 9:8-10)

Hell is not a place, but rather a "state of existence". When the willfully wicked die, their spirits suffer from the memory of their sins.

The prophet Alma told his son about an experience he had as a youth, when he was very rebellious and sought to destroy the church of God. As he had been travelling with some friends, an angel appeared to them and told Alma that unless he sought his own destruction he would no more try to destroy God's church.

With this pronouncement Alma fell down and for three days it appeared as if he were dead. He explained his experience to his son,

"But I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.

Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments.

Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.

Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.

And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul." (Alma 36:12-16)

These wicked souls will suffer in this manner until the time of their Resurrection. Alma, on the other hand, was able to overcome this suffering an receive forgiveness. He devoted the remainder of his life to serving the Lord.

"And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.

Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.

And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!

Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy." (Alma 36:17-21)

Hell is a temporary state of existence for those who willfully rebel against God and His Christ.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The Lord Jesus Christ overcame Hell by means of the bodily Resurrection.

After He rose from the dead He promised that all people will also one day rise from the dead. This is the "free gift" mentioned in the scriptures.

A prophet by the name of Jacob explained it thusly,

"O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.

And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.

O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit." (2 Nephi 9:8-10)

Hell is not a place, but rather a "state of existence". When the willfully wicked die, their spirits suffer from the memory of their sins.

The prophet Alma told his son about an experience he had as a youth, when he was very rebellious and sought to destroy the church of God. As he had been travelling with some friends, an angel appeared to them and told Alma that unless he sought his own destruction he would no more try to destroy God's church.

With this pronouncement Alma fell down and for three days it appeared as if he were dead. He explained his experience to his son,

"But I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.

Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments.

Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.

Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.

And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul." (Alma 36:12-16)

These wicked souls will suffer in this manner until the time of their Resurrection. Alma, on the other hand, was able to overcome this suffering an receive forgiveness. He devoted the remainder of his life to serving the Lord.

"And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.

Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.

And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!

Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy." (Alma 36:17-21)

Hell is a temporary state of existence for those who willfully rebel against God and His Christ.

Ok so let's go with what you said
So here's what you said
( After He rose from the dead He promised that all people will also one day rise from the dead. This is the "free gift" mentioned in the scriptures)

So who do you suppose the dead are, Who's the dead that Christ Jesus is in reference to?
In the bible/scriptures the dead represents two types of people.
Do you know which is which?

 

[joe1776]

I find there is No Scripture that speaks of a thousand years of torment or torture.
Could you post where such verses are found ______

You will find the link in my first response to Prestor John. It's from an LDS website.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Although you seem reluctant to admit it, if his acceptance of Jesus was sincere, and he regretted his sins, Ted Bundy, notorious serial killer ,would qualify as a "perfectly moral person."

We humans only have common sense judgments to work with. You must realize that your position doesn't make sense.

I don't believe "sin regret" equals salvation. My position was implied in my statement--Jesus died for all. Ted Bundy could get saved, I can get saved--you can too IMHO, regardless of how heinous your sin.

 

[Prestor John]

Let's look at the opening paragraph for example:

Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory.

A thousand years of torment is punishment. Isn't it?

No. It is a consequence, not a punishment.

For example, when I was a young boy my mother told me not to ride on skateboards. She thought they were unsafe and did not like them. She said that if she saw me on one that I'd be grounded.

Well, I did get on one and I did fall and hurt myself.

Now, my getting hurt was a consequence of my actions, not a punishment.

However, if my mother decided to ground me as well, I would have suffered both the consequence and the punishment.

In Hell, people are "tormented" by the memory of their many sins. This "torment" (which has been described as being burned with fire) is feeling all of the guilt/shame/remorse/regret of one's sins without forgiveness and comfort.

These feelings are the consequence of their actions, not a punishment, because there is no outside force compelling anyone to experience this torment. It all comes from within us.

 

[Deeje]

The fact that there are exceptions, does not negate the general rule that most Christian faiths teach that Hell is a place of eternal punishment.

If one practices their worship based on fear, then they cannot love God.

1 John 4:18...
"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts fear out, because fear restrains us. Indeed, the one who is fearful has not been made perfect in love."

Fear of punishment was never the motive for serving God offered by Jesus. If we love God, we have nothing to fear in the first place.There is no such place as "hell" in the Bible. There is only life and death.

Furthermore, while punishment as instruction is compatible with unconditional love, the idea of eternal suffering for picking the wrong religion is not.

That is an interesting statement for a couple of reasons.....

1) Nowhere is it stated that God's love is "unconditional". In the beginning, God's instruction was clear.....'obey my command and live....disobey and die'. It was therefore man's choice to obey or to disobey and the consequences for each were just a matter of fact. Oftentimes the penalty will never sway a person from doing the wrong thing. Its only if they get caught that they regret the punishment. God has always made "life" conditional. His execution of those recorded in the Bible imply that his love has limits that are attached to our behaviors.

If God does not approve of our behavior then he gives us the opportunity to see the error of our ways and separate ourselves from the wrongdoing. When he cleanses the earth of all wickedness, (which he promises to do) then those still clinging to those behaviors will be dispensed along with them. There will be no unrighteousness in "the new earth". (2 Peter 3:13)

2) Why would we "pick the wrong religion" on purpose? Most of us (who are spiritually minded) are looking for a form of worship that suits us...a bit like trying on a garment....if it doesn't fit, we won't feel inclined to wear it. On the other hand, if someone else tells us that it looks good on us, then we can be swayed to think something that is not true, because we really like the look of the garment, but just not on us. So we can sacrifice our own preferences to please others in that case.

So in answer to the OP, I believe that all our choices in this life are designed to reveal who we really are as the person that God sees. Do we really know ourselves? Do we analyse our choices to see what they reveal about us? Our choice of mate? Our choice of lifestyle? Our choice of friends? Our choice of dress? Our choice of worship?

Some are oblivious because they really are only superficial people with very superficial lives....going through the motions, but not contributing to the lives of others in any meaningful way. Their choice of worship involves nothing more than performing some sort of duty. It is basically about being seen to be doing something good but it involves no relationship with God as a real person. They pick their 'Christianity' up at the door and leave it there on their way out.

Our choices tell us a lot about who we are, if we are honest. Do we love people? Are we patient with them when they hold us up? Do we judge them harshly without knowing anything about them? Can we practice the "Golden Rule"?

Do we love creation? Do we respect it enough to thank the Creator for it...as well as the ability to use our senses to appreciate it on all those levels?

Do we hate injustice? Do we see past our nationalism to see the futility of war? Do we see through the lies of politicians or do we support the political systems of our respective countries regardless, because its just the choice of the lesser of two evils?

In our choice of religion, what are we really looking for? A religion that suits us...or one that suits God? Do we love God or do we just fear punishment from him? Only a careful study of the Bible will answer those questions from God's perspective. He tells us how to' draw near to him so he can draw near to us'. (James 4:8) Its a truly wonderful experience. Even our imperfect selves can have a close relationship with the Creator if we are trying our best to obey him.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In Hell, people are "tormented" by the memory of their many sins. This "torment" (which has been described as being burned with fire) is feeling all of the guilt/shame/remorse/regret of one's sins without forgiveness and comfort

I think what is described ^ above ^ sounds more like ' torture ' than ' torment '.
To me it is clear at Romans 6:23,7 that DEATH is the price tag that sin pays as stamped as 'Paid In Full'.
There was No biblical post-mortem penalty for Adam and No double jeopardy.
Since one pays for their sins by their 'death', then one is with forgiveness.
Since the dead have No memory, then their dead memories can't torment or torture them.
Both Jesus and the OT teach ' sleep ' in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18.
King Solomon, known for his godly wisdom, wrote the dead know nothing at Ecclesiastes 9:5.
The dead in 'biblical hell' will be ' delivered up ' (meaning resurrected out of hell) as per Revelation 20:13-14.
Who in their right mind would even fire roast a bad dog __________
So, why would a God of Love torment or torture a person with unforgivable guilt/shame/remorse/regret, etc.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ok, so i fear going to hell and that somehow magically causes me to love God and neighbor.
Or perhaps i am inspired that God loves a wretch like me, and i know i deserve hell just like, everybody else, but God made the way of the Cross which somehow sheds light upon my soul, and establishes victory, the only way for a sinner to repent and enter into Life Everlasting.
So like the Cross is The Way, whereas someone righteous had to make the way possible by being a substitutional sacrifice for a punishment i would otherwise pay for eternally. Instead the punishment is satisfied and the sin debt fully paid, and God's wrath and justice is satisfied by unleashing punishment on God's own Son. Where was Satan?, perhaps the Cross defeated his power too.
I stand convicted, by the obviousness of the Bible. Ugh! Wheres the reality in that

The fear of going to hell (fire) was a false scare tactic that false clergy used to try to control the flock of God.
Biblical hell is just the temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as: hell fire.
Gehenna was a garbage pit where things were destroyed forever and Not burning forever.
What the wicked pay for eternally is: death. Psalms 92:7 says the wicked will be ' destroyed forever '.
Where was Satan? If you read chapters one and two of Job you will find some insight.
At Job 2:4-5 Satan challenges all of us. 'Touch our flesh.... '(loose physical health) and we would Not serve God.
So, Satan raised the issue that under adverse conditions we would Not serve God.
Both Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar and so can we.
As far as where is the reality in that, to me is found in what Jesus taught at John 13:34-35 that we are to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has leading to everlasting life in heaven for some, or everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical earth for the majority of people starting with Jesus' coming 1,000-year rule over Earth.

 

[Prestor John]

Ok so let's go with what you said
So here's what you said
( After He rose from the dead He promised that all people will also one day rise from the dead. This is the "free gift" mentioned in the scriptures)

So who do you suppose the dead are, Who's the dead that Christ Jesus is in reference to?
In the bible/scriptures the dead represents two types of people.
Do you know which is which?

The two deaths mentioned in the scriptures are physical death and spiritual death. As mortals we suffer from both.

Spiritual death is separation from God which is brought on by our committing sin.

The Lord Jesus Christ has made it possible for all people to overcome sin through having faith in Him and repentance.

Overcoming sin requires due diligence on our part. We must be actively engaged in resisting temptation and following the Lord's example.

Overcoming physical death through a bodily Resurrection requires no action on our part. It is literally a free gift and it saves everyone from Hell.

 

[Prestor John]

I think what is described ^ above ^ sounds more like ' torture ' than ' torment '.

What you "think" is wrong.

The Lord cannot force anyone to feel these things. If that were true, then no one would commit sin.

To me it is clear at Romans 6:23,7 that DEATH is the price tag that sin pays as stamped as 'Paid In Full'.

Yet, everyone dies physically. Even the Lord Jesus Christ died. Are you claiming that He committed sin?

This verse was in reference to "spiritual death", or separation from God.

Through the Lord Jesus Christ, we can all overcome sin and return to live in God's presence.

There was No biblical post-mortem penalty for Adam and No double jeopardy.

I don't understand this.

Since one pays for their sins by their 'death', then one is with forgiveness.

Nope.

There are those who will not receive forgiveness and will be cast into outer darkness.

Physical death does not absolve our sins.

Since the dead have No memory, then their dead memories can't torment or torture them.

" There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulffixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:19-31)

Sounds like the dead have memories and can receive comfort or torment.

Both Jesus and the OT teach ' sleep ' in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18.

Then, if you want, liken the torment or comfort to a dream.

They still happen. Either way.

King Solomon, known for his godly wisdom, wrote the dead know nothing at Ecclesiastes 9:5.

He also became completely apostate.

The dead in 'biblical hell' will be ' delivered up ' (meaning resurrected out of hell) as per Revelation 20:13-14.

Correct.

The wicked in Hell will be Resurrected before their Final Judgment.

Who in their right mind would even fire roast a bad dog __________

No one.

The wicked suffer in Hell because upon death they receive a complete recollection of their guilt.

So, why would a God of Love torment or torture a person with unforgivable guilt/shame/remorse/regret, etc.

He doesn't.

As long as the wicked in Hell do not commit the unpardonable sin, they will eventually be forgiven and enter into God's Kingdom after the Final Judgment.

You must remember that God allowed His Only Begotten Son in the flesh to suffer for the sins of all.

If God is willing to allow His most Beloved to suffer the penalties of sins that He Himself never committed, then you're dang right He is willing to allow the wicked to dwell in the torment of their guilt for a time.

Am guessing that you are a Jehovah's Witness?

 

[joe1776]

No. It is a consequence, not a punishment.

For example, when I was a young boy my mother told me not to ride on skateboards. She thought they were unsafe and did not like them. She said that if she saw me on one that I'd be grounded.

Well, I did get on one and I did fall and hurt myself.

Now, my getting hurt was a consequence of my actions, not a punishment.

However, if my mother decided to ground me as well, I would have suffered both the consequence and the punishment.

In Hell, people are "tormented" by the memory of their many sins. This "torment" (which has been described as being burned with fire) is feeling all of the guilt/shame/remorse/regret of one's sins without forgiveness and comfort.

These feelings are the consequence of their actions, not a punishment, because there is no outside force compelling anyone to experience this torment. It all comes from within us.

You created a false analogy. Unlike God, your mother didn't create the "consequence" which hurt you. So, your wordplay argument doesn't work.