The Christian Contradiction, An Example

[joe1776]

I find we are to love our enemies ( Agape' love which is love based on principle )
One way that love is shown is by proclaiming God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 impartially to everyone we can,
just as Jesus instructed at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 to take the good news or gospel message to all nations.
So, in all nations live people of all beliefs and non-beliefs. God is Not partial so in that sense love without condition.
On the other hand, we are all free, if we wish, to act responsibly toward God. God's love has conditions.
For example: those who follow Jesus would obey his New commandment of John 13:34-35
We are to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
Since biblical hell comes to a final end as per Revelation 20:13-14, then there could be No eternal suffering.
Everyone in the Bible's hell is ' delivered up ' (meaning resurrected out of hell, the Bible's temporary grave)
Then, emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell.

Your position that Hell isn't eternal suffering is not the traditional, mainstream Christian position. So, the contradiction I point out in the OP doesn't apply.

 

[joe1776]

I wonder what the actual Christian traditional view is as there are over 40,000 sects each claiming to be the right one. I always refer to Jesus Himself not the clergy or individuals interpretations.

I'm an old American with Catholic relatives on my side and Protestant relatives on my wife's. I have no doubt that the traditional view in my experience is as I stated it in the OP.

Within the huge Catholic Church, the liberals, like Pope Francis, now have the upper hand, but the traditional Church position was as I've stated it. And the American Protestant churches mostly remain traditional.

Reward alone is a good motivator. Punishment is equally good. But the two together are the most powerful motivators in our nature. The invention of Heaven (reward) and Hell (punishment) was sheer genius if recruitment is the first priority.

 

[joe1776]

You make a good point. But conscience can be wrong and unreliable too I think.

I think you're wrong. I don't think conscience makes mistakes but there are many biases involved with moral judgments that complicate the issue. If we were to discuss it, we'd be at it for a couple of days.

 

[BilliardsBall]

When the baptism I attended was made part of the regular Protestant service, I was in the audience when the minister and a 20 year-old woman, who wanted to be a minister, performed a question and answer session.

The minister began by admitting that churches faced the problem of dwindling interest by the younger generation and wondered how his young protege might deal with it.

Her answer began with her personal goal: She didn't want to go to Hell. So, she explained that she would follow the teaching of Jesus and learn to love even atheists regardless of their beliefs. Both she and the minister then reinforced their message of unconditional love.

If either of them realized it, neither mentioned the contradiction in their message. They were both imagining that they were capable of a higher grade of love (unconditional) than the God they worshipped who would send those atheists to Hell to suffer eternally for not accepting Jesus as their savior.

Your thoughts?

Huh? What? People don't go to Hell for "not accepting Jesus", they go to Hell because only perfectly moral people can live in a utopia. People go to Hell over their free will choice IMHO, to trust themselves, not Jesus Christ, for perfection.

However, unlike your OP, it is absolutely correct, appropriate and moral to only let perfect moral people into a paradise. People unwilling to be transformed cannot enter, or they will bring down the utopia.

 

[joe1776]

Huh? What? People don't go to Hell for "not accepting Jesus", they go to Hell because only perfectly moral people can live in a utopia. People go to Hell over their free will choice IMHO, to trust themselves, not Jesus Christ, for perfection.

However, unlike your OP, it is absolutely correct, appropriate and moral to only let perfect moral people into a paradise. People unwilling to be transformed cannot enter, or they will bring down the utopia.

Your reply is off-topic since it doesn't represent the traditional Christian position that presented a contradiction with the idea that Jesus taught unconditional love.

Just curious, though. It was reported that, not long before his execution, Ted Bundy accepted Jesus as his savior. If we assume that his act was sincere, do you believe that his sins of brutally murdering as many as 30 young women were then forgiven and he might then enter Heaven as a "perfectly moral person?"

 

[viole]

Although Sweden is a wonderful nation I don’t think it’s realistic to say that you don’t have your fair share of problems such as violence and integration.

https://www.politico.eu/article/swe...ty-undoing-peaceful-self-image-law-and-order/

Yes, well, all countries have some problems. But that does not look at all lime unhappiness, bloodshed, hell on earth, and such. And it is definetely not reducible to us not believing in God.

Maybe you should make a comparison between quality of life and religiosity. And tell me if there is a correlation. I know that Scandinavia, particularly Denmark score the highest in term f happiness while religiosity is very low. The contrary for places like Uganda, etc.

So, do you see this correlation you are claiming?

Please note: you should consider countries that are secular because of their own free choice, since that is the only reliable societal metric, so don’t come with N. Corea or the ex Soviet Union.

Ciao

- viole

 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

"Her answer began with her personal goal: She didn't want to go to Hell."
So her over riding motivation is not to be punished if I am reading that right?
If you were to remove that threat (hell), would she still be so forgiving and full of 'unconditional love'? If not, is she REALLY a good person?

 

[joe1776]

"Her answer began with her personal goal: She didn't want to go to Hell."
So her over riding motivation is not to be punished if I am reading that right?
If you were to remove that threat (hell), would she still be so forgiving and full of 'unconditional love'? If not, is she REALLY a good person?

That's a good question. I didn't know the young woman well-enough to even speculate on an answer. However, despite the contradiction I pointed out, I think she was on a path leading to moral growth. Using Christ as an exemplar of unconditional love should help her.find her way.

 

[shmogie]

I think you've used a false analogy when you compare someone's rejection of Christianity to a sick, rabid dog.

Moreover, when you kill a rabid dog, you do it mercifully. You don't subject it to eternal suffering (the traditional Christian belief).

I do not believe in, nor does the Bible support an eternal torment in hell.

To God, an unrepentant sinner is like a dog with rabies, yet unlike the dog he can choose otherwise. If he does not, he will be ¨put to sleep¨ forever.

 

[joe1776]

I do not believe in, nor does the Bible support an eternal torment in hell.

To God, an unrepentant sinner is like a dog with rabies, yet unlike the dog he can choose otherwise. If he does not, he will be ¨put to sleep¨ forever.

My OP referred to the traditional, mainstream Christian belief about Hell.

Ten Foundational Verses for Eternal Punishment in Hell

 

[Prestor John]

When the baptism I attended was made part of the regular Protestant service, I was in the audience when the minister and a 20 year-old woman, who wanted to be a minister, performed a question and answer session.

The minister began by admitting that churches faced the problem of dwindling interest by the younger generation and wondered how his young protege might deal with it.

Her answer began with her personal goal: She didn't want to go to Hell. So, she explained that she would follow the teaching of Jesus and learn to love even atheists regardless of their beliefs. Both she and the minister then reinforced their message of unconditional love.

If either of them realized it, neither mentioned the contradiction in their message. They were both imagining that they were capable of a higher grade of love (unconditional) than the God they worshipped who would send those atheists to Hell to suffer eternally for not accepting Jesus as their savior.

Your thoughts?

God's love is unconditional.

He simply allows His children to choose what they want to do and where they want to go.

If you want nothing to do with God and His Christ, then He has prepared a place for you where neither He nor His Son will venture and bother you.

Going to Hell is as much a "punishment" as a person choosing which college to go to.

 

[joe1776]

God's love is unconditional.

He simply allows His children to choose what they want to do and where they want to go.

If you want nothing to do with God and His Christ, then He has prepared a place for you where neither He nor His Son will venture and bother you.

Going to Hell is as much a "punishment" as a person choosing which college to go to.

Why does your description of Hell sound nothing like these from the LDS site?

Hell

 

[1213]

... God they worshipped who would send those atheists to Hell to suffer eternally for not accepting Jesus as their savior.

Your thoughts?

Biblical reason why people go to hell is unrighteousness. If person doesn’t accept Jesus as savior means person remains unrighteous. But not accepting Jesus is not really the reason for going to hell, unrighteousness is.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Genuine questions:
Is someone only classed as unrepentant if they stood in front of God and thus faced with cold hard facts, but still refused to believe in him/ heaven etc? But if they repent and acknowledge at that stage, then all is forgiven? If not, why not (presuming they have lived a good life etc to the same level as a religious person would have)?
What about people that have lived their life as they *think they should to satisfy God* and fulfilled the minimum requirements as it were, and not because they are pure of heart and actually *want* to do/ be good?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think it is a matter of perspective or how one delivers the message.

For an example:

Dad says "Don't rob a bank because you will go to jail". The child robs a bank and then the judge sent him to jail"..

Question:

Who sent him to jail? The Dad? The judge? Or the person who robbed the bank?

Did the judge not love him? Did the dad not love him? Or is there a possibility that both loved him?

Yet a judge cannot hand out the death penalty or even life imprisonment for a bank robbery only. Punishment must match the crime. That is a problem with the Bible.

 

[blü 2]

Her answer began with her personal goal: She didn't want to go to Hell. So, she explained that she would follow the teaching of Jesus and learn to love even atheists regardless of their beliefs. Both she and the minister then reinforced their message of unconditional love.

To love people because you don't want to go to hell?

To love people because you're at gunpoint, as it were?

That's not love, that's terror.

That's not morality, that's 'whatever it takes'.

 

[sealchan]

When the baptism I attended was made part of the regular Protestant service, I was in the audience when the minister and a 20 year-old woman, who wanted to be a minister, performed a question and answer session.

The minister began by admitting that churches faced the problem of dwindling interest by the younger generation and wondered how his young protege might deal with it.

Her answer began with her personal goal: She didn't want to go to Hell. So, she explained that she would follow the teaching of Jesus and learn to love even atheists regardless of their beliefs. Both she and the minister then reinforced their message of unconditional love.

If either of them realized it, neither mentioned the contradiction in their message. They were both imagining that they were capable of a higher grade of love (unconditional) than the God they worshipped who would send those atheists to Hell to suffer eternally for not accepting Jesus as their savior.

Your thoughts?

I'm more interested in the question behind the question...how to get the interest of a younger audience.

My answer, quit pretending Hell is a literal reality. Hell is metaphoric of the reality of accepting something which contradicts your God-given nature. Teach instead this and what Hell looks like when you approach it (peer pressure, addiction, planetary climate change, school shootings, etc).

 

[Kenny]

If we make the analogy completely in line with Christian theology, then:

- the Dad designed and made the drugs. He chose their properties, including their addictive nature and the suffering they cause.
- he could have stopped his child's dealer, but didn't (and some say that he arranged with the dealer to try to sell drugs to his child as a way to test his child).
- the "life of hell" isn't from the effects of the drug; it's from Dad continually beating his child for being an addict.

Hmmm... nope.

Sin changed everything. It was Adam and Eve's free will decision. Remember the sin cause the ground to be cursed.

For that matter, case in point, let's take love. Love can be godly and God made it but man can make it evil.

Dad let the continual beating to be on Jesus so that we didn't have to be an addict to sin. No greater love....

 

[joe1776]

To love people because you don't want to go to hell?

To love people because you're at gunpoint, as it were?

That's not love, that's terror.

That's not morality, that's 'whatever it takes'.

As I said earlier, I didn't know the young woman well, so it would be unfair to judge her motivation only by the way I reported her comments. Nevertheless, I agree that we humans can be moved to make moral progress simply out of fear for the consequences.

 

[Kenny]

Yet a judge cannot hand out the death penalty or even life imprisonment for a bank robbery only. Punishment must match the crime. That is a problem with the Bible.

IYHO.

His mercy rejoiced over judgement (James). Sounds like He offered a plea deal.