The Book of Revelation.................

[Bennettresearch]

Not only Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1) would act as Messiah for a certain assignment by God so did others. -2 Sam 19:21; 22:51; 23:1; Psalm 18:50.

Daniel 9:25,26 is exclusively about the foretold Messiah Christ Jesus.

Absolutely, as Isaiah 11:4 says about the Messiah that he would be a warrior to slay the wicked at the time of Psalm 92:7. Revelation 19:11 says that Jesus will carry on war. Righteous warfare. Righteous meaning that no one innocent will be destroyed by Jesus. Revelation 19:14 shows Jesus is Commander in Chief- Hail to the chief!- along with his angelic armies in the heavens.
Revelation 19:15 shows how powerful the words from his mouth will be.
Jesus words will be as sharp as a two-edged sword, an executioner's sword, that he will destroy any that want to bring ruin to earth or earthly society. Revelation 11:18 B.

Jesus explanation to his followers at: John 19:11-15 [Matt 25:14] shows that Jesus, as crowned acting king of God kingdom or royal government, would not take immediate military action but would return after traveling to a far away country (heaven).
Psalm 110:1.

None of this really worked out, did it? This is why Revelation is continually projected into the future. 70 CE, Daniel is all done. This final action by the Romans put it to and end. The climate after 70 CE is quite a different affair and while the Romans were still in power, which is why people absess with Daniel so much, these are different times and a new situation as appeared. That would be the dominance of the christian religion by Roman citizens. If this weren't the case Revelation would not have any purpose.
What are the two biggest problems that the Jews and Christians had? This would be Hellenization and Romanization. From the perspective of someone who was actually with Jesus or had real contact from beyond with Him, Roman citizens like Paul and the Gospel writers who dominated christianity and changed it to their own view points would demand that a prophecy be written to warn of the coming christian church and its falseness. Jesus' words are like the two edge sword but people don't like the message.
You have fallen into the trap somewhat of Judaizing here and not realizing the extent of the opposition that Revelation reppresents. You have also quoted a chapter that is not part of the original prophecy but is an addition written by scribes who are of course very well versed in OT prophecy.

“Revelation to John appears to be a collection of separate units composed by unknown authors who lived during the last quarter of the 1st century, though it purports to have been written by John, “the beloved disciple” of Jesus, at Patmos, in the Aegean Sea.”
[Revelation to John; Encyclopedia Britannica 2005 edition.]

Craig

 

[Composer]

I was talking about chapter 13.

Out of interest you may be interested in the following interpretation? -

CHAPTER 13​

THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE PAPACY - ( AN OUTLINE OF THE DESTINY OF THE SYSTEM OF THINGS THAT HAS ON ITS HEAD THE NAME OF BLASPHEMY)

THE DEVOLPMENT OF THE PAPACY

In this chapter, Rome is represented first as the beast of the sea, and then, as the beast of the earth. It symbolises the bitter religious controversy that arose between those who sought to worship God according to their conscience, and the brutal, despotic attitude of Roman Catholicism which endeavoured to enforce its belief by persecution and death.



THE BEAST OF THE SEA
THE BEAST OF THE SEA Vv. 1- 10.
VERSE 1:
"I stood upon the sand of the sea" – That is, at the bound of the sea (Jeremiah 5: 22). Sand is often used as a symbol for people (cp. Hosea 1: 10). Here it represents a people, like John, who existed in the outskirts of the Roman habitable, and who were carefully observing the signs of the times. John, as representative of their class, heard the roaring of the sea (i.e. the nations – Revelation 17: 15) whipped into a storm by tempest-winds that had previously been restrained (see Notes on Revelation 7: 1).
The sounding of the trumpets (Revelation 8) had brought the barbarian nations swarming over the borders of the empire, to establish themselves therein. Their presence was to play a large part in the development now symbolised.
"A beast" – A power. Cp. Proverbs 28: 15; Daniel 7: 17.
"Out of the sea" – The nations, Isaiah 57: 20.

<H2><A name="TEN HORNS">TEN HORNS
"Ten- (10) horns" – Nations. Cp. Revelation 17: 12; Jeremiah 48: 25; Daniel 7: 24. The once united Roman Empire became ultimately divided into ten- (10) parts by the 1. Huns, 2. Vandals, 3. Visigoths, 4. Burgundians, 5. Gepidae, 6. Lombards, 7. Franks, 8. Suevi, 9. Alans, 10. Bavarians, who successively invaded the Empire. They were incorporated into the Empire, adopting its laws and submitting to the overlordship of the Emperor who ruled from Constantinople.
Ultimately they all submitted to the Papal yoke, becoming thus the horns of the beast.
"Upon his horns ten- (10) crowns" – Contrast Chapter 12: 3. There the crowns were on the heads of the Dragon, indicating that the prophecy was fulfilled at the period in history prior to the barbarian invasion.

<H2><A name="CROWNS ON HORNS">CROWNS ON HORNS
Crowns on horns indicate that the Empire was divided into the 10 nations indicated above.
"The name" – To have the name of anything named on one is to be identified with it, and invested with its power (Acts 4: 7, 30; Philippians 2:9- 10), or to revere it (cp. Micah 4: 5).
In this chapter there is shown the bitter conflict between those having invested on them the name of blasphemy, and those having named upon them the name of Yahweh (cp. Vv. 6, 17, Revelation 14: 1).
"Blasphemy" – Blasphemy is claiming to be what one is not (Revelation 2: 9).
This the Pope does (2- Thessalonians 2: 4).
VERSE 2:
"The beast" – This is a composite beast made up of leopard, bear, lion and a fourth- (4th) unnamed beast.
It is thus identified with the beasts of Daniel 7:4- 7. Daniel showed that the lion would be consumed by the bear, the bear (consumed) by the leopard, the leopard (consumed) by the fourth- (4th) beast (identified with Rome).
Rome combined the rapacity and ferocity of all that went before it.
"Mouth of a lion" – The Lion represents Babylon, and Rome spake as Babylon (cp. Daniel 7: 4; Revelation 17: 5).

<H2><A name="THE DRAGON">THE DRAGON
"The Dragon" – The military authority of the Empire, with its headquarters in Constantinople (Revelation 12: 17). By this time (see note – "Upon his horns ten- (10) crowns" v. 1).
Europe had been invaded by the barbarian nations, each of which had set up its power within the borders of the Empire. Thus the western Empire was breaking up, though Rome, itself, still retained independence. It did so by the support of the military authority of Constantinople. Thus Constantinople - (the Dragon) gave Rome its "power" seat -(throne, or form of rule, for an emperor still reigned there who was subject to the main ruler in Constantinople), and its great (ecclisiastical) authority." See note: "wounded unto death" – v.3.

 

[Composer]

I SAW ONE OF HIS HEADS
VERSE 3:
"I saw one- (1) of his heads" – There were seven- (7) heads, and they represented the different form of government under which Rome had been ruled (Revelation 17: 10, 12: 3). The Roman Historians Livy and Tacitus enumerated five- (5) different systems of government from building of the city as follows: - 1. Regal, 2. Consular, 3. Dictatorial, 4. Decemviral and 5. Tribunitial.
Since that time there was set up in B.C. 31, the Imperial system of rule, and from 476A.D. when the Goths invaded Italy and set up their power, there was established the Gothic form of government. John saw one of them "wounded unto death." This was the 6th head or Imperial form of rule.
It was "wounded to death" when the Goths invaded Italy and took over the country.
"As it were" – It had only the appearance of death. The Imperial 6th head of the beast that was "wounded to death" by the Gothic invasion was later resuscitated in a new form represented in this chapter as the "beast of the earth" (v. 11), or in Revelation 17: 11 as the eighth- (8th) head of the beast."
"Wounded to death" – Odoacer, king of the Heruli, brought the Empire of the West to an end by waging war on Italy, overthrowing Romulus Augustus, who ruled in Rome, and setting up his own power therein.
At that time, Rome was divided into two- (2) parts, answering to the two- (2) legs of the image of Daniel 2. Both in Rome and Constantinople there were joint rulers, though the chief power lay with the eastern Emperor.
Odoacer enjoyed his power in Rome for only 14 years, at the end of which time, in 493, he was overthrown by Theodoric, King of the Ostrogoths. Gothic rule became established in Rome and continued for about 60 years. Thus the 6th head was wounded to death and replaced by the 7th head of the beast, or Gothic rule.
"Deadly wound was healed" – The 6th (Imperial) head was revived in a new form, religious in character. When the Goths occupied Rome, they were hostile to the church, and oppressed it. But constant appeals by the bishop of Rome to the military authority of Constantinople ultimately resulted in the invasion of Italy by the eastern Empire, and finally to the ejection of the Goths from power.
The church greatly benefited through this means, and out of this trouble arose the authority which was eventually conferred upon the Papy. Here is a chronology of the main incidents in this struggle for papal recognition and power.
A.D 526 – Athalaric, grandson of Theodoric assumed the civil authority of Rome with the support of his mother, Amalasuntha.
A.D. 534 – Athalaric dies – joint rule established between Amalasuntha and Theodatus, her cousin.
A.D. 535 – The former (Amalasuntha) strangled by the order of the latter (Theodatus). Theodatus in turn was assasinated by Viteges. Viteges in turn was attacked by the military leader of Justinian - Emperor of Constantinople, in an attempt on the part of the eastern Empire, to assert control over Rome and Italy.
A.D. 546 – Insufficient support of Belisarius by Justinian permitted Gothis leader Totila to successfully attack Rome. The walls were broken down, the citizens fled, and for 40 days Rome was like a dead city.
A.D. 552 – Narses, sent from Constantinople, defeats Totila who was killed in battle. Teias succeeds Totila.
A.D. 554 – By decree of Justinian, Rome ruled by Emperor’s lieutenant, who was resident in Ravenna. Rome degraded to a city of the second- (2nd_ rank at the Pope’s request. This delivered the Papal throne from the blighting effect of sovereign temporal power.
Thus the intervention of Constantinople destroyed the 7th Gothic head, and permitted the 6th Imperial head to be healed of its wound and to arise again in a new religious form.

 

[Composer]

THE DRAGON GAVE POWER UNTO THE BEAST
VERSE 4:
"The dragon gave power unto the beast" – See note on v. 2. Justinian of Constantinople supported Catholic pretensions in fulfillment of the prophecy of Daniel 11: 38- 39. Papal prestige rose as men witnessed it surviving the troubles of the times.
VERSE 5:
"There was given unto him" – The limits of Gentile power are Divinely controlled (Romans 13: 1; Acts 17: 26).
"A mouth" – The Papacy became vocal through its decrees which were supported by the military might of Constantinople.
"Forty and two- (42) months" – 1,260 days. The decree of Justinian, supporting the pretensions of the papacy, date from A.D. 529 – 533. 1,260 added to this date brings to 1789- 1793, the period of the French Revolution which greatly reduced Papal power.
The decree of Phocas, which gave added power to the papacy, dates from A.D. 606- 610. 1,260 added to this brings to 1866- 1870 when the temporal power of the papacy was overthrown. Thus, by the decrees of Justinian and Phocas, rulers in the Dragon capital, "great power was given unto him."
VERSE 6:
"Blasphemy" – Rome has been noted for this, particularly in its pretensions.
Here are a couple of samples: 1. The Roman Council of A.D. 877 declared that "Christ himself willed that the Pope be the head of us all in his stead upon earth." 2. The Canon Law of 17th Century stated: "It is certain that the supreme Pontiff was called God by the pious prince Constantine. It is manifest that Deity cannot be judged by men."
"To blaspheme his name" – To speak wrongfully of His purpose (cp. Ezekiel 35: 12).
"His tabernacle" – His dwelling place; the true followers of the Lord – (2- Corinthians 6: 16; Ephesians 2: 20- 22).
"Them that dwell in heaven" – Not only literally but figuratively. There are heavenlies in Christ (Ephesians 1: 3, 2: 6) opposed to the heavenlies of this age (Ephesians 3: 10, 6: 12 - margin). These "heavenlies" it should be noted, are located on earth!
VERSE 7:
"War with the saints" – This was constantly maintained, particularly after the "deadly wound was healed," and Catholicism arose more powerful than ever, as the beast of the earth (v. 11).
"Power" – The Pope ultimately exercised temporary power over many nations of the earth, and even presumed to exercise authority to grant licence to Catholic powers (Spain, Portugal, etc.), to trade in distant parts.

VERSE 8:
"Not" A most important word in this verse. Those deluded by the pretensions of Rome are those found "not written in the book."
"The book of life" – See note Revelation 20: 12.
"From the foundation of the world’ – this book has ever been in existence. See Exodus 32: 32; Revelation 17: 8; Matthew 25: 34.
VERSE 10:
"He shall go into captivity" – Notwithstanding the authority and power of Rome in the past or in the present, her ultimate destiny is sure and certain destruction.
She has led many into captivity; she has killed with the sword, but, in turn, will be destroyed by it. Meanwhile, the saints are called upon to exercise the virtues of faith and patience, for God is true and faithful and they shall be delivered.
When Rome at last is taken captive, and is destroyed, true value of faith and patience will be appreciated (see Revelation 14: 12).
Having considered these notes, now turn to "Eureka," Vol. 3, pp. 151- 290 where the matter is expounded at length. Brother Thomas’ incomparable exposition will provide an invaluable outline of prophecy and history relating to the most important theme of this chapter: the uprise of the Papacy. This portion of the Word is deserving of our attention and study (Revelation 1: 3).

 

[Composer]

THE BEAST OF THE EARTH

THE BEAST OF THE EARTH – Vv. 11- 18.​

John describes another beast that he saw arising out of the earth, in contrast to the previous one that areose out of the sea (cp. Vv. 1, 11). The former is a development of the latter.
The Beast of the Sea related to the time when the (Roman) Empire had been divided into two- (2), with headquarters at both Rome and Constantinople. The strength of the western empire, however, was greatly weakened for the invasion of hordes of barbarians into Europe who laid the foundations of modern nations, and the independence of Rome was only maintained by support of the armies of Constantinople. This two- (2) fold division of the Empire answers to the two- (2) legs of iron, seen in the Vision of Daniel 2.
The early verses of Revelation 13 show how that one- (1) of the heads of this beast was "wounded to death." Our notes on these verses show that this fulfilled when the Goths swept through Italy and occupied Rome.
Rome became subject to the Goths for about 60 years, at the end of which time, Gothic influence was destroyed by the armies of Constantinople.
Thus all were caused to "worship the dragon (Constantinople) which gave power unto the beast" (v. 4), for through this military success, the "deadly wound was healed."
Though Rome was delivered from Gothic control, it was reduced in rank among cities, and deprived of all sovereignty. The Emperors of the eastern Empire in Constantinople, extended their power over Italy through their representative, the Exarch of Ravenna, part of whose duties was to protect the Bishop of Rome.
This state of things had been established by a settlement effected in A.D. 554 through the victorious armies of Justinian, Emperor of Constantinople. But gradually the power of Constantinople waned, and it was obvious that the Bishop must look for help elsewhere if he was to continue his power.
By now ten- (10 different nations (the ten horns of the beast or the ten toes of the image (of Daniel 2) were found on the soil of Europe, and some of these were hostile to the pope. Among them were the Lombards, who swept down into Italy, and expelling the Exarch of Ravenna, destroyed the influence of Constantinople, and had the Bishop of Rome at their mercy.
To whom could the Pope appeal for help? Constantinople no longer had the military power to eject the Lombards, and in any case, would not have come to the aid of the Pope anyway, for the Bishop of Constantinople and the Bishop of Rome were engaged in a bitter and protracted controversy over the use of images.
The Pope was forced to look elsewhere, and found support in Europe itself. The foundation of the Empire of the Franks, which ultimately developed into the Germanic Federation, was in the course of being established by Pepin and his son Charlemagne, and it ultimately grew into a powerful Empire. To it the Pope turned for help, and the appeal was not in vain.
The arms of Charlemagne destroyed the power of the Lombards, and incorporated many of the other nationalities under his influence. In the year A.D. 799 and alliance was established between the Pope and Charlemagne. Certain "states of the church" were given into the authority of the Pope, who was now elevated into a pontifical potentate with certain temporal jurisdiction; Rome itself was raised from her humbled state to one- (1) of imperial sovereignty, and as Gibbon testifies, was afterwards "revered by the Latins as the Metropolis of the world, and the THRONE OF THE POPE AND EMPEROR who from the eternal City derived their title, their honours, and the right or exercise of temporal dominion."
Charlemagne and his successors now provided the military power instead of the Emperor of Constantinople, whilst the Pope continued to provide the spiritual authority. This new European Empire, known as the Holy Roman Empire, comprised the Beast of the earth, and the two- (2) horned beast. For centuries its main core of military power was the Germanic Federation.
The uprise of this two- (2) horned beast of the earth, the Holy Roman Empire is the subject of this section of the Apocalypse.

 

[Composer]

VERSE 11:
"Another beast coming out of the earth" – This new power was not limited to territory around the Mediterranean as was the Beast of the Sea (v. 1), but included Central Europe. It was brought into being by the Pope having to seek new allies. A rift had developed between Rome and Constantinople brought about by the "Great Controversy" over the use of images. The church in Constantinople opposed them; that of Rome supported them.
The contoversy led to division, and the Greek Ortodox Church came into existence independent of the Roman Catholic Church. Meanwhile, the Lombards had invaded Italy, had expelled the Exarch of Ravenna, and brought Rome and the Pope subject to their power. Rome found itself deserted of its eastern ally.
The "dragon" of v. 4, and turned to the rising power of Pepin in Europe, seeking his support, Pepin Emperor of the Franks, marched against the Lombards and defeated them. The Lombards again attacked Rome, but were again overthrown, this time by Charlemagne, son of Pepin.
This was in the year A.D. 774. It illustrated to the Pope that he could obtain in Charlemagne a more effective support than from the Emperor of Constantinople.
In A.D. 787 Rome separated from Constantinople, and became allied to the growing power of Charlemagne. On Christmas Day A.D. 799, Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne as Augustus and Emperor, and the union of church and state was made absolute.
The Holy Roman Empire had come into existence. Meanwhile, the controversy with the church in Constantinople over images continued, and was finally decided by Theodora in A.D 842 when he threatened to put out the eyes of all those who opposed their use in the churches.
"Horns like a lamb" – The Holy Roman Empire claimed to be Christian.
"Spake as a dragon" – This revealed its true character. The "dragon" is the symbol of paganised Imperialism. The Holy Roman Empire (it was neither "holy", "Roman" or an "Empire" as one critic pointed out) was founded on the Imperialistic ambitions of Charlemagne. It developed into the Germanic Federation of States of Central Europe, the chief of which, by the year A.D. 962, automatically acquired the subject kingdoms of Italy and Rome, but could not legally assume the titles of Emperor or Augustus, until he had received the Crown from the hands of the Pope.
VERSE 12:
"Before him" – Literally "in his presence" (see Diaglott., Dr. T. trans.).
The first- (1st) beast was not destroyed; it was only one of its heads that was affected. The ten- (10) horns, or kingdom remained. Thus, in accordance with the prophecy, the two- (2) horned Beast was established I the presence of the ten- (10) horns of the first- (1st) beast.
"The earth and them that dwell therein" – See note on V. 11.
"First- (1st) beast whose deadly wound was healed" – It was the sixth- (6th) head of the beast that was wounded to death, not the beast itself. The Goths wounded this head when they established their Gothic form of government (the 7th head) in Rome.
The Emperors of Constantinople overthrew the Gothic rule, and by so doing, "healed the wound" (v. 3) and protected Rome by arranging for its defence through the Exarch of Ravenna. The Lombards, however, occupied Italy and forced the Pope to seek aid elsewhere. He found it in the rising power of Charlemagne.
With his support, the beast again rose with greatly enhanced power. This represents the 8th head. Cp. Revelation 17: 11.

 

[Composer]

VERSE 13:
"Maketh fire" – Fire is the symbol of anger, war, destruction, persecution (Isaiah 42: 25, 66, 15; Ezekiel 22: 20- 22; Zechariah 13: 9; 1- Peter 1: 7, 4: 12). All this was manifested by Rome against her opponents.
"Come down from heaven" – From the ruling powers. The fire was both secular and ecclesiastical. The former (secular) was administered by the armies of the Empire, the latter (ecclesiastical) by the thunder of papal interdicts and excommunications.
VERSE 14:
"Miracles" – Greek – "Wonders." Theological deception (2- Thessalonians 2: 9) plus military success, brought the world to the feet of the Papacy.
"In the sight of the beast" – The Holy Roman Empire was established in the sight of the other horns or powers, found on the Beast of the Sea (v. 1). It arose from out of their midst (Daniel 7: 8).
"Saying" – An authoritative mandate.
"An image" – The Papacy. An image is a likeness which pagans worship. The Papacy was an independent sovereign power like the secular authority commanding the worship of its adherents.
VERSE 15:
"Both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed" – To speak is to issue decrees – this the Papacy does. To worship is to command the unquestioning adherence of followers – this the Papacy does. To cause to kill is to enforce decrees by war – this, when the Papacy had temporal power – it did (Daniel 7: 20).
VERSE 16:
"Receive the mark" – It was the custom of slave owners to brand their slaves with a sign on the forehead or hand. The Hindus today mark themselves on the forehead with the emblem of their god. Thus those having the sign of the Papacy are its slaves, worshipping its head.
The sign of the cross which is made on the hands of the priests at their ordination, and which worshippers make on their foreheads and bodies, and which is used to advertise churches, is really the badge of cursing (Galatians 3: 130.
"In right hand or forehead" – Thus indicating themselves to work and think only for Rome. Contrast Revelation 14: 1.
VERSE 17:
"No man might buy or sell" – Trading with heretics was discouraged. But the buying and selling referred to, mainly has relation to practising religion in the sense of Revelation 18: 12. Rome recognises only its priests as being authorised to do this.
"The number of his name" – It was the custom among pagan countries to designate some of the gods by the total number of the name of the god, Greek signs have a numerical value. Ireneas who discoursed with Polycarp the disciple of John, declared the name LATEINOS. The numerical value of Lateinos in Greek is 666, thus: L- (30), A- (1), T- (300), E- (5), I- (10), N- (50), o- (70), S- (2000.
The phrase "The Latin Kingdom" (He Latine Basileia), also has a numerical value of 666, thus – H- (8), L- (30), a- (1), t- (300), I- (10), n- (50), e- (8), B- (2), a- (1), s- (200), I- (10), l- (30), e- (5), I- (10), a- (1).
It is remarkable that about the year 666, Pope Vilation decreed that Latin be the language of religion.

 

[Composer]

THE NUMBER OF MAN
VERSE 18:
"The number of a man" – i.e. the number of flesh, with which is contrasted Divine power (cp. Isaiah 31: 1- 3, 2- Thessalonians 2: 3).
Six is the number of man, because on the sixth- (6th) day man was created. It is one less than seven, the perfect number.
HISTORICAL OUTLINE OF THE FORMATION OF THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST – OR HOW THE PAPACY OBTAINED ITS POWER
People of Rome excluded from ratification of Popes.
At first the Bishop of Rome was elected by the College of Cardinals, and ratified by the people of Rome. But the Pope was not legally consecrated until the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire had signified his approval and approbation. Gibbon declares: - "The Roman Pontiffs of the ninth- (9th) and tenth- (10th) centuries were insulted, imprisoned and murdered by their tyrants; and such was their indigence after the loss and usurpation of the ecclesiastical patrimonies, that they could neither support the state of a prince, nor exercise the charity of a priest."
Meanwhile, the excesses and vices of certain Popes demanded that some reform be instituted. Whilst affecting this, the papacy sought to increase its power.
In A.D. 1059, Pope Nicholas II published a decree restoring to the Cardinals of Rome, the right of nomination and election, and leaving the confirmation to the Emperor, but excluding the ratification by the people of Rome. This was done at the instigation of Hildebrand, a Cardinal, who was the real power behind the Pope.
Dispute Between Gregory and Henry IV.
Hildebrand ascended the Papal throne assuming the title of Pope Gregory VII. He immediately set about gaining further power. He published a new decree against lay investitures, claiming that they reduced the dignity and purity of the Roman Hierarchy.
He sought an occasion against Henry of Navarre who stood in the way of Papal power. Charges being laid against Henry IV by his subjects, he was summoned to Rome to explain his case. Instead of doing so, Henry assembled a gathering of bishops and vassals at Worms, and procured a sentence that Gregory should no longer be obeyed as lawful Pope. Henry was thereupon excommunicated by Gregory.
Gregory supported his case by letters which contained the statement: "Bishops are superior to kings and are made to judge them." He aimed to establish at Rome an annual assembly of bishops to decide contests between nations. A sort of United Nations Organisation presided over by the Papacy!
Many Bishops and nobles of Germany siding with Gregory, Henry was compelled to ignominiously submit. He humbly presented himself before the Pope at Canossa to receive absolution for his sins.
But Gregory incited the Lombards, and they rose against him, Henry rushed to their support. Gregory, on the other hand, supported the claims of Rodolph to the throne of the Holy Roman Empire, in opposition to Henry. Rodolph was no match for Henry’s military skill, however. He was decisively defeated and his fall considerably reduced the influence of Gregory.






Final Result of Conflict between Emperor and Pope.
Disputes between the Emperor and the Pope (secular and ecclesiastical) continued until A.D 122 when a Concordat or Treaty of Agreement was mutually entered into, by which the Emperor resigned for ever the investiture of bishops, whilst the Pope agreed to receive his temporalities from the Emperor.
By a Papal constitution, no bishop was permitted to exercise his functions until he had received the confirmation of the Roman Emperor.
No Pontiff now thought of awaiting confirmation of the Emperor before he was installed in "the throne of St. Peter."
Gregory’s ambition for absolute power was attained by Innocent III (1198 – 1216) who stated that it was the Pope’s authority to accept or reject the Emperor elect. Thus the position between Pope and Emperor was entirely reversed. The "image" of the beast had been established, and all were called upon to worship it.
By the thirteenth- (13th) century the Papacy was recognised as the supreme power in Europe – greater even than the Emperor.


(Source: The Apoocalypse Epitomised - H.P. Mansfield (Christ Adelphian now deceased))

You know how I feel about virtually all religious books, they are NOT to be trusted.

I just gave you that in the hope it may be of benefit in your research?

Cheers!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

None of this really worked out, did it? This is why Revelation is continually projected into the future. 70 CE, Daniel is all done. This final action by the Romans put it to and end. The climate after 70 CE is quite a different affair and while the Romans were still in power, which is why people absess with Daniel so much, these are different times and a new situation as appeared. That would be the dominance of the christian religion by Roman citizens. If this weren't the case Revelation would not have any purpose.
What are the two biggest problems that the Jews and Christians had? This would be Hellenization and Romanization. From the perspective of someone who was actually with Jesus or had real contact from beyond with Him, Roman citizens like Paul and the Gospel writers who dominated christianity and changed it to their own view points would demand that a prophecy be written to warn of the coming christian church and its falseness. Jesus' words are like the two edge sword but people don't like the message.
You have fallen into the trap somewhat of Judaizing here and not realizing the extent of the opposition that Revelation reppresents. You have also quoted a chapter that is not part of the original prophecy but is an addition written by scribes who are of course very well versed in OT prophecy.
“Revelation to John appears to be a collection of separate units composed by unknown authors who lived during the last quarter of the 1st century, though it purports to have been written by John, “the beloved disciple” of Jesus, at Patmos, in the Aegean Sea.”
[Revelation to John; Encyclopedia Britannica 2005 edition.]
Craig

In high school I used the Encyclopedia Britannica and my report was faulty.
I compared my report to the other Encyclopedias in the library and the Britannica was the only one out of harmony with all the rest on that particular topic.

I am not quite sure when you say none of this really worked out.
Isn't Daniel 9:24,25 showing the ancient Jews restored to their homeland, and even greater insight into the appearance of the Messiah within 70 weeks.
Not 70 literal weeks, but weeks of years. Such as in the Tanakh- The Holy Scriptures at Daniel 9:24 footnote. The 70 weeks of years = 490 years with the starting point of the going forth to restore or rebuild Jerusalem. The first would be 537 BC[BCE]. Second with Artaxerxes- Ezra 7:6-27. Third- Nehemiah 1:1-3; 2:1-3; 2:4-8. work completed about 406 BC[BCE] within the 7 weeks or 49 years of Daniel 9:25 brings us to the year 29 AD[CE] with Jesus being baptized as the Messiah and cut off/ died in 33 (Daniel 9:26a, 27 a). By the end of the 70 weeks of years, or by the year 36 the way was open for the gentiles.

So the desolation took place, not before, but after the 70 weeks as a direct result of the Jews rejecting Christ. Don't historical records show in 66 Roman Legions under Syrian Governor Cestius Gallus surrounded Jerusalem
being the 'abomination of desolation' of Matt 24:15,16; Luke 21:21:20;19:43.
which four years later desolated Jerusalem in 70? That left enough time for the Christian followers of Jesus to flee the city to the mountainous area I think was called Pella.

Definitely Daniel 12:2,13 is future. Daniel has not yet awakened from the deep sleep of death that will occur on resurrection morning, so to speak, or during the 1000-year reign of Christ over the earth, or earthly realm of God's kingdom or royal government in the hands of Christ Jesus acting as God's crowned heavenly king. Isn't Daniel 2:44 future?

 

[Bennettresearch]

Out of interest you may be interested in the following interpretation? -

CHAPTER 13​

THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE PAPACY - ( AN OUTLINE OF THE DESTINY OF THE SYSTEM OF THINGS THAT HAS ON ITS HEAD THE NAME OF BLASPHEMY)

THE DEVOLPMENT OF THE PAPACY

In this chapter, Rome is represented first as the beast of the sea, and then, as the beast of the earth. It symbolises the bitter religious controversy that arose between those who sought to worship God according to their conscience, and the brutal, despotic attitude of Roman Catholicism which endeavoured to enforce its belief by persecution and death.



THE BEAST OF THE SEA
THE BEAST OF THE SEA Vv. 1- 10.
VERSE 1:
&quot;I stood upon the sand of the sea&quot; – That is, at the bound of the sea (Jeremiah 5: 22). Sand is often used as a symbol for people (cp. Hosea 1: 10). Here it represents a people, like John, who existed in the outskirts of the Roman habitable, and who were carefully observing the signs of the times. John, as representative of their class, heard the roaring of the sea (i.e. the nations – Revelation 17: 15) whipped into a storm by tempest-winds that had previously been restrained (see Notes on Revelation 7: 1).
The sounding of the trumpets (Revelation 8) had brought the barbarian nations swarming over the borders of the empire, to establish themselves therein. Their presence was to play a large part in the development now symbolised.
&quot;A beast&quot; – A power. Cp. Proverbs 28: 15; Daniel 7: 17.
&quot;Out of the sea&quot; – The nations, Isaiah 57: 20.

<H2><A name=&quot;TEN HORNS&quot;>TEN HORNS
&quot;Ten- (10) horns&quot; – Nations. Cp. Revelation 17: 12; Jeremiah 48: 25; Daniel 7: 24. The once united Roman Empire became ultimately divided into ten- (10) parts by the 1. Huns, 2. Vandals, 3. Visigoths, 4. Burgundians, 5. Gepidae, 6. Lombards, 7. Franks, 8. Suevi, 9. Alans, 10. Bavarians, who successively invaded the Empire. They were incorporated into the Empire, adopting its laws and submitting to the overlordship of the Emperor who ruled from Constantinople.
Ultimately they all submitted to the Papal yoke, becoming thus the horns of the beast.
&quot;Upon his horns ten- (10) crowns&quot; – Contrast Chapter 12: 3. There the crowns were on the heads of the Dragon, indicating that the prophecy was fulfilled at the period in history prior to the barbarian invasion.

<H2><A name=&quot;CROWNS ON HORNS&quot;>CROWNS ON HORNS
Crowns on horns indicate that the Empire was divided into the 10 nations indicated above.
&quot;The name&quot; – To have the name of anything named on one is to be identified with it, and invested with its power (Acts 4: 7, 30; Philippians 2:9- 10), or to revere it (cp. Micah 4: 5).
In this chapter there is shown the bitter conflict between those having invested on them the name of blasphemy, and those having named upon them the name of Yahweh (cp. Vv. 6, 17, Revelation 14: 1).
&quot;Blasphemy&quot; – Blasphemy is claiming to be what one is not (Revelation 2: 9).
This the Pope does (2- Thessalonians 2: 4).
VERSE 2:
&quot;The beast&quot; – This is a composite beast made up of leopard, bear, lion and a fourth- (4th) unnamed beast.
It is thus identified with the beasts of Daniel 7:4- 7. Daniel showed that the lion would be consumed by the bear, the bear (consumed) by the leopard, the leopard (consumed) by the fourth- (4th) beast (identified with Rome).
Rome combined the rapacity and ferocity of all that went before it.
&quot;Mouth of a lion&quot; – The Lion represents Babylon, and Rome spake as Babylon (cp. Daniel 7: 4; Revelation 17: 5).

<H2><A name=&quot;THE DRAGON&quot;>THE DRAGON
&quot;The Dragon&quot; – The military authority of the Empire, with its headquarters in Constantinople (Revelation 12: 17). By this time (see note – &quot;Upon his horns ten- (10) crowns&quot; v. 1).
Europe had been invaded by the barbarian nations, each of which had set up its power within the borders of the Empire. Thus the western Empire was breaking up, though Rome, itself, still retained independence. It did so by the support of the military authority of Constantinople. Thus Constantinople - (the Dragon) gave Rome its &quot;power&quot; seat -(throne, or form of rule, for an emperor still reigned there who was subject to the main ruler in Constantinople), and its great (ecclisiastical) authority.&quot; See note: &quot;wounded unto death&quot; – v.3.

This is typical of a really bad interpretation. There are four distinct beasts in chapter 13, it is not a composite beast. The number ten means nothing, it is a literary device used by prophets and in the scriptures. 40 days and 40 nights, etc. None of this resolves the text in chapter 13. After people figure out that the opening beast, which is different from the others, is Rome, or more correctly, the Roman citizenry, their eyes glaze over and they go into la la land.

You are going to have to do better than this argue with my delineation. I may get bored with you if you become too desperate though. So far you haven't done very well.

Craig

 

[Composer]

I just gave you that so you can compare the opinions of others to your hypothesis.

I am already bored with your empty claims based on your hypothesis but out of courtesy I was prepared to try to assist you see the interpretations of others and I gave you one example. You don't deserve my assistance on this matter any longer so I shall not give it further.

You don't appreciate my initial efforts and want to insult those only trying to assist you in your quest for learning.

Your hypothesis is just one of many, have fun talking to others interested in hearing about it, I'm not prepared to listen any longer nor engage in your insulting posts regarding your story book guesswork on this matter.

 

[Bennettresearch]

I just gave you that so you can compare the opinions of others to your hypothesis.

I am already bored with your empty claims based on your hypothesis but out of courtesy I was prepared to try to assist you see the interpretations of others and I gave you one example. You don't deserve my assistance on this matter any longer so I shall not give it further.

You don't appreciate my initial efforts and want to insult those only trying to assist you in your quest for learning.

Your hypothesis is just one of many, have fun talking to others interested in hearing about it, I'm not prepared to listen any longer nor engage in your insulting posts regarding your story book guesswork on this matter.

What makes you think you have anything to tell me on this subject? You rely on what others say and act like you are so superior. You have yet to refute my interpretation of chapter 13 and that is because you are unable to accomplish something like that.

It's funny how people so arrogant as you supply so little in the way of any proof or pertinent information. I am more tired of your nonsense than you could possibly be of me.

 

[Green Kepi]

[quote=Bennettresearch...

"You are going to have to do better than this argue with my delineation. I may get bored with you if you become too desperate though. So far you haven't done very well."

I haven't been following this forum...but...dang! Aren't you a 'super irritant hyperbolic' self-imposed religionist!

 

[Composer]

What makes you think you have anything to tell me on this subject? You rely on what others say and act like you are so superior. You have yet to refute my interpretation of chapter 13 and that is because you are unable to accomplish something like that.

Your interpretation is one of many as I pointed out.

You have also already pointed out you are dishonest in claiming you are a Scholar in all the languages of the world and accordingly by your alleged standards then no one can really ever understand the correct meaning of the story book especially if they are not scholars in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic.

I don't rely entirely on what others say either. I am not a scholar in biblical languages so I have to believe the translations but upon examination ideological bias often comes in to play even there. I read what others say and compare it to others of different views, but at the end of the day its all quibbling about a story book of fantasy.

It's funny how people so arrogant as you supply so little in the way of any proof or pertinent information. I am more tired of your nonsense than you could possibly be of me.

What ' proofs are you looking for? '

Apart from your ' say so ' why should the story book text be believed as literally the words of a God at all? (Allbeit upon scrutiny, self contradicting words at that.)

I don't tire of people like you, you are just what I need for my tally. I just legitimately expose them for the frauds they are as I have successfully done again with you and you are now added to my 50 year tally so far of pretend believers and pompous pretend linguistic scholars who believe the only way their story book can be understood is if the reader is fluent and a scholar in all story book original texts.

The illiterate haven't a hope of hearing this alleged Gospel message other than by others telling them (apparently?) and just ' hope ' what they are being told is the Truth when in fact the only Truth is that it is just a story book.

You call yourself a Christian. So do many other groups that oppose your ideology and prophetic hypothesis'. Which group do the illiterate believe and why should they believe any, especially one group in particular?

Next!

 

[AK4]

I just gave you that so you can compare the opinions of others to your hypothesis.

I am already bored with your empty claims based on your hypothesis but out of courtesy I was prepared to try to assist you see the interpretations of others and I gave you one example. You don't deserve my assistance on this matter any longer so I shall not give it further.

You don't appreciate my initial efforts and want to insult those only trying to assist you in your quest for learning.


Your hypothesis is just one of many, have fun talking to others interested in hearing about it, I'm not prepared to listen any longer nor engage in your insulting posts regarding your story book guesswork on this matter.

Maybe you need to talk to someone who knows more about this "story book" and what Revelation is all about. Hint: The beast is you.

 

[Composer]

. . . . Hint: The beast is you.

Well that is merely your empty conjecture based upon a story book.

 

[Bennettresearch]

You need to actually research my confrontation here. I am merely reacting to a series of attacks by someone who acts like they have this superior knowledge that they don't seem to be able to deliver. If you want to critique what I have supplied, check out the thread Debunking the Antichrist Myth.

I am waiting for someone, who dismisses it out of hand, to supply any better interpretation. Maybe you can take a crack at it.

Craig

 

[Bennettresearch]

Your interpretation is one of many as I pointed out.
!

</p>
So what? You have been attempting to dismiss it without supplying anything in the way of a valid interpretation that may disprove it. This is typical of your arrogance.

You have also already pointed out you are dishonest in claiming you are a Scholar in all the languages of the world and accordingly by your alleged standards then no one can really ever understand the correct meaning of the story book especially if they are not scholars in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic.
>

This is a blatant lie. I did not claim to be an expert on these languages, I only pointed out that the grammar is different. I trust the scholars who have translated for me, and I don't need to compete with them. This is typical of your exaggerations and false claims that you so arrogantly represent as being some kind of superior intellect. I have yet to see you demonstrate even a modicum of intellect.

I don't rely entirely on what others say either. I am not a scholar in biblical languages so I have to believe the translations but upon examination ideological bias often comes in to play even there. I read what others say and compare it to others of different views, but at the end of the day its all quibbling about a story book of fantasy.

I don't think a true scholar would repeat this storybook thing of yours a hundred times. It sounds self absorbed to me.

What ' proofs are you looking for? '

You can start out by proving the lie you just told about me in this thread.

Apart from your ' say so ' why should the story book text be believed as literally the words of a God at all? <i>(Allbeit upon scrutiny, self contradicting words at that.)

If you were paying attention, you would see that I am defining what chapter 13 is actually saying as opposed to the mythology surrounding other interpretations of this chapter. More exaggeration by yourself. I never said that anyone had to believe it literally as the word of God and you cannot supply any quote of that from me. Well, maybe you can try to twist something I have said and take it out of context, which is your style that you are demonstrating here.

I don't tire of people like you, you are just what I need for my tally. I just legitimately expose them for the frauds they are as I have successfully done again with you and you are now added to my 50 year tally so far of pretend believers and pompous pretend linguistic scholars who believe the only way their story book can be understood is if the reader is fluent and a scholar in all story book original texts.
>

This is a good example of the little fantasy world you live in. A legend in your own mind. This statement by you is full of your twisted version of what has been actually said. You are only exposing yourself as a fraud, not me. I'm still waiting for any valid refutation of my interpretation that you can't seem to deliver. You only seem to parrot this storybook thing which ran out of gas a long time ago. You are only trying to project your own twisted methodology into someone else which I believe is called a strawman.
The rest of your post only reveals your agenda and self absorbed claim to some kind of superiority. You keep trying to point it at me but you have nothing valid to make that claim on. All I'm hearing from you is blah blah blah.

 

[Bennettresearch]

By the way, Composer,Your personal attack is showing everyone that you failed to win our debate. To resort to such nonsense speaks volumes about your inability to win a debate in a valid manner. Your personal attack means nothing to me, I just consider the source.

 

[Bennettresearch]

You need to actually read what has gone on between us, including other threads to appreciate that I have been confronted with the very things that you are claiming about me. This is typical isn't it? Walk in at the end of an argument and pick the wrong one as the perpetrator. I don't appreciate your statement sir as it isn't based upon any knowledge of what has transpired.