The Book of Revelation.................

[Composer]

Was the king of Tyre was in Eden? No Was the king of Tyre a covering cherub (angel) in Eden. No. So those references are toward Satan.

WRONG!

The alleged Garden of Eden was a Location. That Location came under and within the realm and Kingdom of Tyre hence the King of Tyre had been literally in the location of Eden but didn't have to have been there ' contemporary ' with Adam & Eve.

Was the King of Tyre the ' anointed cherub? '

Symbolically YES!

1. "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth." (vs. 14). The cherubim were figures of beaten gold at either end of the mercy seat. (Exod. 37:7-9). Their wings overshadowed the mercy seat with which they were of one piece. (Exod. 25:19, 20). Although the translation of the Hebrew is uncertain, (accepting the A.V.), the suggestion may be that Tyre as a great mercantile power was privileged to cast its "wings" over Israel.8 It was the abuse of this exalted position that was a factor in the ruin of Tyre. (vs. 4, 5).

(wrestedscriptures.com)


You obviously haven't read the wrestedscriptures.com, nor attempted to answer the questions they point out that also refute you?

You have heard right about so-called Christianity decline.

It is out of date to call Christendom as meaning 1st Century Christianity.
The realm of Christendom has watered down Scriptures and the people are drying up. 2nd Tim 3:5,13 just a form or facade of godliness.

People of the earth are likened to many waters at Rev 17:2,15
[like the restless sea of mankind- Isaiah 57:20]
and just as the water of the river Euphrates was dried up before the fall of ancient Babylon, so too the waters or religious people will dry up, decline.
- Rev 16:12; Jeremiah 50:38; 51:36,37

Right too about Biblical corruption.
Jesus said it first at Matthew 7:15 to watch out for religious wolves in sheep's clothing.
Luke also warned -Acts 20:29,30- about false wolf-like clergy starting back at the end of the first century.
This ties in with Jesus illustration of the Wheat and the Weeds [tares] how they would grow together until the harvest time of separation. False weed-like Christians would be among the genuine wheat-like Christians throughout the centuries until the time of Matthew 25:31,32 when Jesus separates the sheep [wheat] to his right hand of favor.

So we are agreed, chrisianity today is a false doctrine from the story book earliest believers.

Trouble is, all the testimony is based on the same story book?

So it is great to discuss what the story book really says but at the end of the day it's all just story book based ideologies.

Cheers!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

WRONG!
The alleged Garden of Eden was a Location. That Location came under and within the realm and Kingdom of Tyre hence the King of Tyre had been literally in the location of Eden but didn't have to have been there ' contemporary ' with Adam & Eve.
Was the King of Tyre the ' anointed cherub? '
Symbolically YES!"Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth." (vs. 14). The cherubim were figures of beaten gold at either end of the mercy seat. (Exod. 37:7-9). Their wings overshadowed the mercy seat with which they were of one piece. (Exod. 25:19, 20). Although the translation of the Hebrew is uncertain, (accepting the A.V.), the suggestion may be that Tyre as a great mercantile power was privileged to cast its "wings" over Israel.8 It was the abuse of this exalted position that was a factor in the ruin of Tyre. (vs. 4, 5). (wrestedscriptures.com)
You obviously haven't read the wrestedscriptures.com, nor attempted to answer the questions they point out that also refute you?
So we are agreed, chrisianity today is a false doctrine from the story book earliest believers.
Trouble is, all the testimony is based on the same story book?
So it is great to discuss what the story book really says but at the end of the day it's all just story book based ideologies.
Cheers!

Yes, the Garden of Eden was a literal location at the Tigress and Euphrates rivers.- Gen 2:14.
Yes, Adam and Eve did Not live at the same time as the king of Tyre.
The king of Tyre was Not perfect (Eze 28:15). Satan was created as a perfect spirit creature until the day he decided to do wrong. That is why John 8:44 calls him the father of the lie because in a sense Satan being the first liar gave birth to the lie.
Adam was a human created with a perfect mind and body.
All born after Adam were born with human imperfection including the King of Tyre.

 

[Composer]

Yes, the Garden of Eden was a literal location at the Tigress and Euphrates rivers.- Gen 2:14.
Yes, Adam and Eve did Not live at the same time as the king of Tyre.
The king of Tyre was Not perfect (Eze 28:15).

Satan was created as a perfect spirit creature until the day he decided to do wrong.

Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, . . . . (Ezek. 28:12) KJV story book

Your misapplication to a naughty fallen heavenly angel spirit being is inferred and spurious.

That is why John 8:44 calls him the father of the lie because in a sense Satan being the first liar gave birth to the lie.

My hypothesis of the story book tale (Based upon a Letter I wrote some time ago) -

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: {thou...: Heb. eating thou shalt eat} 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it : . . . (Gen. 2:16 - 17) KJS / KJV (i.e. King James Standard Version Bible or King James Version story book)

So God warned Adam not to EAT of the forbidden tree.

Here the serpent speaks to Eve and asks her a question. -

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? {Yea...: Heb. Yea, because, etc.} (Gen. 3: 1) KJV (My Bold)

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Gen. 3:2 - 3) KJS

#01 : Here Eve advises the serpent of what she knew already, -

i.e. Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die .

If we compare what God told Adam (Gen. 2:16 - 17 KJV) with what Eve was aware (Gen. 3: 3) KJV, we see that the words - "neither shall ye touch it", have been added / embellished from the original warning given exclusively to Adam.

#DO NOT ALTER GOD'S WORD : The story book text advise of the repercussions against those who "add to / alter" God's words. - Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deut. 4:2 cf. Rev. 22:18-19 / Prov. 30:5 - 6) KJS

. . . and although we do not know for certain "who advised her" the preponderance of evidence indicates that it was Adam. For the story book text only inform us that God directly warned Adam. (Gen. 2:17) KJV (So as God did not warn Eve directly, but only Adam, the information Eve bore, would have come no doubt from Adam, her Husband).

The significant factor about the FIRST LIE therefore demonstrates that the lie of Adam was BEFORE that of the alleged lie of the Satan being allegedly "manipulating" the serpent (The Scriptures DO NOT legitimately support the concept that the Serpent was either manipulated by an external Supernatural fallen heavenly angel Satan "being" nor did the Serpent itself "lie" at all, in its estimation?)

Therefore the the preponderance of evidence concludes that the actual "father of lies" (John 8:44) KJS is more likely Adam.

Adam was a human created with a perfect mind and body.

Nothing was created and described as being ' perfect ' in Genesis Creation but at best ' very good ' (Gen. 1:31) KJV story book

#created_imperfect: Being created dependent on the Tree of Life to make them Immortal, means Adam & Eve were created subject to death and decay even before it is claimed they sinned and brought death and decay upon themselves. The christian claims are spurious and the story book self contradicting.

All born after Adam were born with human imperfection including the King of Tyre.

See above, #created_imperfect:

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No, the Tree of Life makes No one immortal.
Adam was offered 'everlasting life' Not immortality on condition of obedience.
Angels also are Not immortal but their life depends on obedience.
God gifted or granted Jesus immortality -John 5:26- to have life in himself.
If Satan was immortal he would be death proof. Satan will be destroyed-Heb 2:14 B.

Adam was warned first, and Eve by her response to Satan also knew the warning.

Adam was created with human perfection of mind and body,
and as long as obedient would remain physically and spiritually perfect.
Adam could only sin on purpose.
We being imperfect in mind and body sin by mistake.
If we could stop sinning we would not die.
Since we can't we need someone to cover for our imperfections. That one is Christ Jesus.

Being dependent on the Tree of Life does not make immortal, but access to the tree gave Adam on-going life or eternal life if obedient. Revelation 22:2.

 

[Composer]

No, the Tree of Life makes No one immortal.

So according to you the " Tree of Life " isn't a Tree of Life but something less?

Adam was offered 'everlasting life' Not immortality on condition of obedience.

Your alleged evidence is?

Angels also are Not immortal but their life depends on obedience.

So again and according to you your Jesus was a liar when he said -

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . . (Luke 20:36) KJV story book and forgot to add, " , oh! but that doesn't include them being able to die if they are ever naughty! " LOL!

God gifted or granted Jesus immortality -John 5:26- to have life in himself.

You are fabricating an alleged distinction between Immortal and eternal.

Are you an ex-J.w, they preach the same? (Like you, with NO legitimate evidence)

If Satan was immortal he would be death proof. Satan will be destroyed-Heb 2:14 B.

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . . (Luke 20:36) KJV story book

So even IF I hypothetically accept your argument that a naughty spirit angel literally exists it is STILL an angel and as such can NEVER die (i.e. it is death proof)

Adam was warned first, and Eve by her response to Satan also knew the warning.

Eve never spoke to a Satan spirit being?

The Serpent Creature of Genesis DID NOT deceive Adam (1 Tim. 2:14) so it CAN NOT be the same Serpent of Rev. 12:9 that DID deceive the whole world.

Adam was created with human perfection of mind and body,

No! Gen. 3:14 states that ' at best ' everything was created ' very good ' but alas for your theories NOT perfect.

and as long as obedient would remain physically and spiritually perfect.

Being allegedly spiritually perfect it is impossible to become imperfect which defies what being perfect is. (i.e. perfect but with a fatal flaw)

Adam could only sin on purpose.

Not at all, he had absolutely NO knowledge of Good or Evil until he partook of the forbidden Tree - TOTKOG&E in other words he wan't educated enough to know what he was doing nor the alleged repercussions.

We being imperfect in mind and body sin by mistake.
If we could stop sinning we would not die.

But didn't you people already claim that your Jesus ' died for us? '

I'm sure you did?

Here it is - Rom. 5:8, 1 Thess. 5:10

Now you choose to refute and reject those story book scriptures?

You need to get your story straight!

Since we can't we need someone to cover for our imperfections. That one is Christ Jesus.

As you see, that was allegedly already done ' for us ' now you contradict that.

Fathers must not be put to death for what their children24 do, nor children for what their fathers do; each must be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16) NET​

Ezekiel 18:20 RSV

"THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER. NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience. Only Christ's redeeming shed blood can end this never-ending cycle of sin and death. Quite clearly Ezekiel refutes this notion. "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father." (Online Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html) ​

Being dependent on the Tree of Life does not make immortal, but access to the tree gave Adam on-going life or eternal life if obedient. Revelation 22:2.

Either the/any Tree of Life does what it says or it doesn't?

So far you deny it does!

Thanks for your time!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Covenant for a kingdom.

Didn't Jesus make a covenant for a heavenly kingdom with his apostles to serve with him in the heavens as kings and priests. Rev 5:9,10. Those resurrected to heaven will be a new creation, a spirit creation, and like faithful angels will not die.

Adam was created to live on earth as a physical creation forever. If Adam had not sinned Adam would be alive today in perfect health of mind and body.

What does 1st Tim 2:14 say but that Adam was Not deceived. What Adam did was deliberate, on purpose, intentional, willful......isn't that is why Romans 5:12,14 says through one man or Adam that sin entered the world?

Yes, Jesus died for all but all do not accept him, that is why Matthew 20:28 says Jesus ransom covers 'many' and not all. Covers all with the exception of Matt 12:32; Heb 6:4-6.

Adam did not become alive or a living soul until he received the breath of life. Once Adam stopped breathing he lost the breath of life and became a dead soul. Gen 2:7.
Adam would have continued to breath if he continued to eat from the tree of life.
What does Genesis 3:24 say?

 

[Composer]

Covenant for a kingdom.

Didn't Jesus make a covenant for a heavenly kingdom with his apostles to serve with him in the heavens as kings and priests. Rev 5:9,10. Those resurrected to heaven will be a new creation, a spirit creation, and like faithful angels will not die.

You have appointed30 them31 as a kingdom and priests32 to serve33 our God, and they will reign34 on the earth.” (Rev. 5:10) NET story book

Adam was created to live on earth as a physical creation forever. If Adam had not sinned Adam would be alive today in perfect health of mind and body.

Being created subject to the Tree of Life he was NOT created to live forever.

What does 1st Tim 2:14 say but that Adam was Not deceived. What Adam did was deliberate, on purpose, intentional, willful......isn't that is why Romans 5:12,14 says through one man or Adam that sin entered the world?

They had NO knowledge to Good or Evil before they partook of the forbidden Tree. Hence they didn't have understanding.

Sin is regarded as knowingly disobeying, they didn't understand what Good or Evil was.

Yes, Jesus died for all but all do not accept him, that is why Matthew 20:28 says Jesus ransom covers 'many' and not all. Covers all with the exception of Matt 12:32; Heb 6:4-6.

IF he died for all then he died for all. Obviously that isn't true!

He also died for himself and was rewarded for his unwarranted efforts.

Fathers must not be put to death for what their children24 do, nor children for what their fathers do; each must be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16) NET​

This was later confirmed by - ​

Ezekiel 18:20 RSV​

"THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER. NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."​

Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience. Only Christ's redeeming shed blood can end this never-ending cycle of sin and death. Quite clearly Ezekiel refutes this notion. "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father." (Online Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html)​

Adam did not become alive or a living soul until he received the breath of life. Once Adam stopped breathing he lost the breath of life and became a dead soul. Gen 2:7.

There goes the immortal soulists ideology.

Adam would have continued to breath if he continued to eat from the tree of life.

So you believe it was only a temporary life giving tree?

What does Genesis 3:24 say?

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. (Gen. 3:24) KJV story book

Thanks for the discussion

 

[Bennettresearch]

It is regrettable that you find Truth as arrogant and self serving tripe. I consider it confidence that the biblical text is nothing more than a story book written by men as a means of attempting to control as many as will fall for it as credible.


Yes Harry Potter books also have a message but that is also a fictional story book.


I shall try to locate the Thread and respond. A Link from you would have helped?

Let's hope your Thread first establishes that the story book is to be taken as literal and why?

Cheers!

Name of thread: Debunking the Antichrist Myth. Yes, I will not argue with you about the storybook nature of scriptures and the motives of the writers. Prophecy is a different subject however. You quote Ezekiel a lot, why? He predicted the return of the Jews by Cyrus and the commisioning of the 2nd Temple.
Revelation is a prediction from the first century of the formation of the Christian church and what would happen from there. Taken in its historical context, a great deal of it has been fulfilled. Look through this thread and you will see where I posted the Seven Seals. Historical events. Chapter 13 has already happened, documented in history.
And so, I am challenging your blanket dismissal and total lack of understanding prophecy. I can prove my credentials by explaining what the vision of Ezekiel, in the first chapter, is telling us. Can you?
Craig

 

[Composer]

. . . . . . .
And so, I am challenging your blanket dismissal and total lack of understanding prophecy. I can prove my credentials by explaining what the vision of Ezekiel, in the first chapter, is telling us. Can you?
Craig

I have borrowed the following from a ' Jeppo ' at another Forum -

Perhaps the greatest disagreement about prophecy was the coming of the Messiah (i'm referring to the first time round). Why would the Jews reject Jesus when he obviously fulfilled all the key prophecies? Were the Jews too stupid to take notice? Or was there something just not right about the circumstances surrounding the life & death of Jesus that led many Jews to believe he couldn't have been the Messiah?

If there was a major disagreement about whether a prophecy or prophecies had been fulfilled concerning Jesus, then surely the prophecies couldn't have been that clear in the first place? If there has been any group of people who ought to know about prophecy it was the Jews.

Sure you have come up with something like other groups, however the facts are that the prophecies are in contention and hence unclear and ambiguous.

 

[Bennettresearch]

I have borrowed the following from a ' Jeppo ' at another Forum -

Perhaps the greatest disagreement about prophecy was the coming of the Messiah (i'm referring to the first time round). Why would the Jews reject Jesus when he obviously fulfilled all the key prophecies? Were the Jews too stupid to take notice? Or was there something just not right about the circumstances surrounding the life & death of Jesus that led many Jews to believe he couldn't have been the Messiah?

If there was a major disagreement about whether a prophecy or prophecies had been fulfilled concerning Jesus, then surely the prophecies couldn't have been that clear in the first place? If there has been any group of people who ought to know about prophecy it was the Jews.

Sure you have come up with something like other groups, however the facts are that the prophecies are in contention and hence unclear and ambiguous.

Actually, Jesus wasn't fulfilling the prophecy of the Messiah. He had something different in mind. Jesus was a prophet and the messiah was supposed to be a warrior. That is why some claimed Cyrus as the messiah. The Jews wanted to be saved, not changed, and this is why they rejected Jesus. The Jews actually never followed prophecy very well and this is why the prophets had to hide their messages within metaphors. They could get stoned for what they had to say.
The messages in prophecy are very clear, it is those who read it that have foggy minds. Clear your mind and you can actually read the message.
Craig

 

[Composer]

Actually, Jesus wasn't fulfilling the prophecy of the Messiah. He had something different in mind. Jesus was a prophet and the messiah was supposed to be a warrior. That is why some claimed Cyrus as the messiah. The Jews wanted to be saved, not changed, and this is why they rejected Jesus. The Jews actually never followed prophecy very well and this is why the prophets had to hide their messages within metaphors. They could get stoned for what they had to say.
The messages in prophecy are very clear, it is those who read it that have foggy minds. Clear your mind and you can actually read the message.
Craig

IF the messages in prophecy are allegedly ' so clear ' then which is the ' so clearest ' interpretation, yours, J.w's, Abrahamic Faith, Christ Adelphians, SDA's etc. etc. and obviously NONE are clear else there wouldn't be such disagreement and division still today.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

IF the messages in prophecy are allegedly ' so clear ' then which is the ' so clearest ' interpretation, yours, J.w's, Abrahamic Faith, Christ Adelphians, SDA's etc. etc. and obviously NONE are clear else there wouldn't be such disagreement and division still today.

Doesn't God allow for an operation of error to occur so that if a person wishes to believe lies he will be causing divisions. 2nd Timothy 4:3,4 brings out that there are people who want teachers just to 'tickle their ears' so to speak, teachers to say what they want to hear, so that they believe what is not religious truth from the Scriptures. -Romans 1:25.

People can read chapter two of 2nd Timothy but not make sense of it, while others see that the perilous times of these last days of badness on earth is the final result of such critical times before there is divine intervention into mankind's affairs by Christ's actions of Isaiah 11:4; Revelation 19:11,14,15.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Actually, Jesus wasn't fulfilling the prophecy of the Messiah. He had something different in mind. Jesus was a prophet and the messiah was supposed to be a warrior. That is why some claimed Cyrus as the messiah. The Jews wanted to be saved, not changed, and this is why they rejected Jesus. The Jews actually never followed prophecy very well and this is why the prophets had to hide their messages within metaphors. They could get stoned for what they had to say.
The messages in prophecy are very clear, it is those who read it that have foggy minds. Clear your mind and you can actually read the message.
Craig

Not only Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1) would act as Messiah for a certain assignment by God so did others. -2 Sam 19:21; 22:51; 23:1; Psalm 18:50.

Daniel 9:25,26 is exclusively about the foretold Messiah Christ Jesus.

Absolutely, as Isaiah 11:4 says about the Messiah that he would be a warrior to slay the wicked at the time of Psalm 92:7. Revelation 19:11 says that Jesus will carry on war. Righteous warfare. Righteous meaning that no one innocent will be destroyed by Jesus. Revelation 19:14 shows Jesus is Commander in Chief- Hail to the chief!- along with his angelic armies in the heavens.
Revelation 19:15 shows how powerful the words from his mouth will be.
Jesus words will be as sharp as a two-edged sword, an executioner's sword, that he will destroy any that want to bring ruin to earth or earthly society. Revelation 11:18 B.

Jesus explanation to his followers at: John 19:11-15 [Matt 25:14] shows that Jesus, as crowned acting king of God kingdom or royal government, would not take immediate military action but would return after traveling to a far away country (heaven).
Psalm 110:1.

 

[Composer]

Doesn't God allow for an operation of error to occur so that if a person wishes to believe lies he will be causing divisions. 2nd Timothy 4:3,4 brings out that there are people who want teachers just to 'tickle their ears' so to speak, teachers to say what they want to hear, so that they believe what is not religious truth from the Scriptures. -Romans 1:25.

Yes well this is where the story book contradicts itself again.

Story book claim 1. For God is not [the author] of confusion, . . . . (1 Cor. 14:33) KJV story book

Claim 2. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (2 Thess. 2:11) KJV story book

There is also NO legitimate evidence to sustain or support the claim that the story book ' is religious truth or any form of truth according to a literal God? '

People can read chapter two of 2nd Timothy but not make sense of it, while others see that the perilous times of these last days of badness on earth is the final result of such critical times before there is divine intervention into mankind's affairs by Christ's actions of Isaiah 11:4; Revelation 19:11,14,15.

Which only proves and reaffirms the none sense that the story book God isn't the author of confusion, for your analogy shows it certainly is.

Cheers!

 

[lockyfan]

Story book claim 1. For God is not [the author] of confusion, . . . . (1 Cor. 14:33) KJV story book

For God is [a God], not of disorder, but of peace.
Everytihng is orderly and organised. That is what hte scripture means. THat everything has a purpose even if it is for only a short time. There is no disorder unless you are rled by satan and not Jehovah. 1 Corinthians 14:33 (NWT)

Claim 2. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (2 Thess. 2:11) KJV story book

2 Thess 2:9-12
But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

It is only those who take pleasure in the unrighteousness of this system this world as it is today, those who no matter what they are told that go on believeing the lie by their own choice that God allows them to be believing the lie. Because it is their choice to do so and he wants us to freely choose to serve him not just do it for selfish gain.

There is also NO legitimate evidence to sustain or support the claim that the story book ' is religious truth or any form of truth according to a literal God? '

Only the fact that those who live their lives are free of many of the worldy problems to do with money sex drugs and other such things, because they are trying to live their lives to God's Standards. The world seems to be a free for all these days so we try to avoid it andl ive the truth.

Things are hard in other ways but not in the same ways the rest of hte world have troubles.

Yes well this is where the story book contradicts itself again.

No this is where misapplication of scripture causes confusion and lies to persist. I am not saying that it is you who is doing, but it is the will of satan to blind people from the truth.

2 TIm 2:23-26
Further, turn down foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing they produce fights. But a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, keeping himself restrained under evil, instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed; as perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth, and they may come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him for the will of that one.

 

[Composer]

For God is [a God], not of disorder, but of peace.

No matter how you pronounce it, this God permits and contributes to disorder by failing to manifest or show itself in a manner easily comprehensible and hence chaos reigns and a myriad of religions all claiming to be ' the right one '.

Everytihng is orderly and organised.

So pain and suffering is organised by your ' loving God ' Hmm!

So much for choices and Free will!

That is what hte scripture means.

And your interpretation is based upon what?

THat everything has a purpose even if it is for only a short time.

Your evidence is based upon what?

Hitler murdering ,1.000,000,000 Jews, what alleged ' loving God ' purpose was that?

Earthquake killing 230,000 in Haiti and 7000 of the worst criminals escaping, raping the survivors and selling orphans in paedophile rings and for body parts and survivors limbs amputated etc. etc what alleged ' loving purpose ' is that?

There is no disorder unless you are trled by satan and not Jehovah. 1 Corinthians 14:33 (NWT)

But Jehovah was a Satan(Adversary) -

"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah". (2 Samuel 24: 1) KJV​

Comparing this parallel account of the same incident we read: -

And Satan stood up against Israel, , , , (1 Chron. 21: 1) KJV

Later in 1 Chron. 21 we read: -
And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel. {And...: Heb. And it was evil in the eyes of the LORD concerning this thing} 8 And David said unto God, I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing: but now, I beseech thee, do away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. (1 Chron. 21: 7 - 8) KJV

So the ADVERSARY = Satan (i.e. Satan is a Hebrew Word - Metaphor) that was against Israel / smote Israel - was definitely God!

It is usually only the J.w's that use the corrupt NWT incestuous story book version but most J.w's are unaware that for over 100 years their earlier teaching aid was the EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT and that makes absolutely NO mention of a ' Satan ' in any of the story book text. So to all intent and purpose a ' Satan naughty fallen heavenly angel spirit being ' did NOT exist.

Typical of J.w's and their 100% back-flipping ideology they needed to scrap their book and mischievously replace it with another adjusted and sympathetic to their latest beliefs. They dishonestly achieved that and hence the dishonest NWT version virtually exclusive to themselves.

Many years ago I started compiling a list of ' For & Against ' the NWT. I have very little on the ' For ' list but here's a sample of the ' Against ' -

Finally, a word should be said about the New World Translation by the Jehovah's Witnesses. Due to the sectarian bias of the group, as well as to the lack of genuine biblical scholarship, I believe that the New World Translation is by far the worst translation in English dress. It purports to be word-for-word, and in most cases is slavishly literal to the point of being terrible English. But, ironically, whenever a sacred cow is demolished by the biblical writers themselves, the Jehovah's Witnesses twist the text and resort to an interpretive type of translation. In short, it combines the cons of both worlds, with none of the pros. -

Source: Why So Many Versions? and which translation is best? by Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D. Associate Professor of New Testament Studies, Dallas Theological Seminary

2 Thess 2:9-12
But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

Here's that taken from their earlier ED -

of whom in the presence, according to an energy of the adversary, with all power and signs and wonders of falsehood,
2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with every deception of the iniquity, in those perishing; because as the love of the truth not they received in order that to be saved them.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And because of this will send to them the God a strong working of deceit, in order that to believe them the falsehood;
2 Thessalonians 2:12 so that may be judged all those not having believed the truth, but having delighted in the iniquity. (2 Thess. 2:9-12) EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT (LHS)


So there is NO mention of a Satan spirit being!


There is however mention of this ' so called loving God ' inflicting punishment on those that won't believe what it says. That is NOT the actions of a ' loving God ' that is the monstrous bullying methods of a monster that demands affection without having earned it by fair means.

It is only those who take pleasure in the unrighteousness of this system this world as it is today, those who no matter what they are told that go on believeing the lie by their own choice that God allows them to be believing the lie. Because it is their choice to do so and he wants us to freely choose to serve him not just do it for selfish gain.

Freely choosing to serve him and if you don't receiving punsihment is certainly NOT a reasonable method to encourage people to ' Freely ' serve him.

This God is just like a spoiled brat and school yard bully, " Be my friend, do as I say or I'll bash you and inflict retribution upon you "

I do believe in an Intelligent Designer (for want of a better word God) however it is unworthy of my worship.


Part 1 of 2

 

[Composer]

Only the fact that those who live their lives are free of many of the worldy problems to do with money sex drugs and other such things, because they are trying to live their lives to God's Standards. The world seems to be a free for all these days so we try to avoid it andl ive the truth.

The internal disgraceful antics and cover ups of the J.w's is well known personally to me.


For example one of their founders was a proven liar -


THE NEW WORLD TRANSLATION (Frederick Franz "Lies" under oath.)
In 1950, the Watch Tower Society came out with their own translation of the Bible, the New World Translation. Jehovah's Witnesses are told that this translation is the most accurate, unbiased translation available. The Society claims that the New World Translation Committee was made up of highly trained Greek scholars who did their best to "transmit his (God's) thoughts and declarations as accurately as possible." (18) However, when one endeavors to check into the credentials of these translators, one finds that the Society is unwilling to release this information, stating that the Committee desires that all the glory for this translation go to Jehovah God and therefore the translators desire to remain anonymous.
On the surface, this may sound quite noble and honorable; but one may wonder, is this the real reason why they desire to remain anonymous? Over the years, further investigation has revealed who the translators of the New World Translation were, and the facts show that they were totally unqualified for the task of translation. Four of the five Watchtower Governing Body members who were on the Translation Committee had no formal training whatsoever in the Biblical languages. The fifth one, Fred Franz, (former Governing Body member and Watchtower president from 1977-1992) claimed to have some education, but in the Douglas Walsh Trial in Scotland, he gave this testimony under oath:
Tuesday, 23rd November, 1954: Frederick William Franz, Examined:
Q. Have you also made yourself familiar with Hebrew?
A. Yes....
Q. So that you have a substantial linguistic apparatus at your command?
A. Yes, for use in my biblical work.
Q. I think you are able to read and follow the Bible in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Spanish, Portuguese, German, and French?
A. Yes.
Q. It is the case, is it not, that in 1950 there was prepared and issued what is called the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures?
A. Yes....
Q. I think that it was your duty, was it not, before the issue of that New World Translation by your Society to check that translation for accuracy?
A. That is true.
Q. In light of your studies and in light of your knowledge?
A. That is true.
Q. And did you do so?
A. I did so....
Q. And was it your duty on behalf of the Society to check the translation into English from the original Hebrew of that first volume of the Old Testament Scriptures?
A. Yes....
Q. In so far as translation of the Bible itself is undertaken, are you responsible for that?
A. I have been authorized to examine a translation and determine its accuracy and recommend its acceptance in the form in which it is submitted.
Q. Are the translators members of the Editorial Committee?
A. That is a question which I, as a member of the Board of Directors, am not authorized to disclose....
Q. When did you go to the University?....
Q. Did you graduate?
A. No, I did not....
Q. Had you done any Hebrew in the course of your University work?
A. No, I had not, but in the course of my editorial work, my special research work for the president of the Society, I found it was very necessary to have a knowledge of Hebrew, and so I undertook a personal study of that.
ADJOURNED
Wednesday, 24th November, 1954: Frederick William Franz, Cross Continued:
Q. You, yourself, read and speak Hebrew, do you?
A. I do not speak Hebrew.
Q. You do not?
A. No.
Q. Can you, yourself, translate that into Hebrew?
A. Which?
Q. That fourth verse of the Second Chapter of Genesis?
A. You mean here?
Q. Yes?
A. No, I won't attempt to do that.

- Douglas Walsh Trial, Pursuer's Proof, 1954, pp. 7-9, 88, 91-92, 102-103

This exercise which Franz was unable to do is something which the average first or second year Hebrew student could have accomplished without any difficulty. Is it any wonder the Society refuses to publicly reveal the people who were involved in the translation of their Bible? Would you put your trust in a doctor who refused to give his credentials? Yet, this is what many Jehovah's Witnesses are doing when it comes to vital Bible truth.
Footnotes
18. New World Translation, 1984, p. 5

(My Source: - http://www.reachtheworldforjesus.homestead.com/JWFactsNWT.html )​

Things are hard in other ways but not in the same ways the rest of hte world have troubles.

From personal experience I know the J.w's have their own internal troubles and their teachings are formed upon the testimony of liars.

No this is where misapplication of scripture causes confusion and lies to persist. I am not saying that it is you who is doing, but it is the will of satan to blind people from the truth.

As I stated earlier until the J.w's swapped story books they didn't even have a story book Satan naughty fallen heavenly angel spirit being, just simply an ADVERSARY and one of those ADVERSARIES was the story book God itself. Peter was another. Judas was ' a devil '.

2 TIm 2:23-26
Further, turn down foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing they produce fights. But a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, keeping himself restrained under evil, instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed; as perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth, and they may come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him for the will of that one.

Quoting story book text as if it had legitimacy is futile. Unless and or until the story book can be legitimately shown to be what others claim it to be then its content is purely ' story book fantasy

 

[Bennettresearch]

IF the messages in prophecy are allegedly ' so clear ' then which is the ' so clearest ' interpretation, yours, J.w's, Abrahamic Faith, Christ Adelphians, SDA's etc. etc. and obviously NONE are clear else there wouldn't be such disagreement and division still today.

I was talking about chapter 13. The prophecy has been a challenge for me over the years, but I have made some very good progress. The reason it has not been accurately represented by some, or somewhat represented but not totally accurate, is because of the human condition.
1. Total denial: As was demonstrated by a long debate in this forum that I had, the other side was intent upon saying anything but the church. This is quite common and is the biggest reaction that I get when I describe chapter 13.
2. Inadequate research: People misinterpret the symbology. They obsess about the word beast when it is only a word substitution to describe a person or group of people. I had a debate about the word horn, which means power and control and they still don't get it. They aslo get trapped by the additions to the prophecy. This is warned about in Revelation (22:18-19). The first 7 verses in chapter 1 are a blatant addition and are counter to the message in Revelation.
3. An obsession with numerology. The number 666 described in chapter 13 is actually the number of Jesus. The biggest denial about this is that they Jesus is not a beast. John clearly transitions Jesus from the Lamb to the beast in Rev 13:14. I love it when some talk about the fiction of Nero coming back to life. Give me a break.
4. Idiosyncratic, imaginary scenarios. The Rapture, etc. While the imagery in Revelation is quite harsh, it is still metaphoric and symbolic to great degree. Also, prophecies are not fulfilled to the letter, so that would mean that Revelation should not be read as a script. The Jewish apocalypse of 70 CE didn't work out as planned.
These would cause the wide variety of fiction written about Revelation. With hard work over the last 15 years I have interpreted what Chapter 13 is saying and provided historical context. I have also put it up for challenge and no one has provided anything better yet.
Craig

 

[Bennettresearch]

Doesn't God allow for an operation of error to occur so that if a person wishes to believe lies he will be causing divisions. 2nd Timothy 4:3,4 brings out that there are people who want teachers just to 'tickle their ears' so to speak, teachers to say what they want to hear, so that they believe what is not religious truth from the Scriptures. -Romans 1:25.

People can read chapter two of 2nd Timothy but not make sense of it, while others see that the perilous times of these last days of badness on earth is the final result of such critical times before there is divine intervention into mankind's affairs by Christ's actions of Isaiah 11:4; Revelation 19:11,14,15.

Thank you for demonstrating the idosyncratic nature of interpretation. Isaiah 11:4 is a glittery and irrelelevant quote. It is an attempt to define Jesus by the OT and a demand that He fulfill all of the OT prophecies, which is called Judaizing. You don't seem to be able to define just who Jesus is fighting here. Revelation 19:11,14,15. Try to not put the cart before the horse please.

 

[Bennettresearch]

The internal disgraceful antics and cover ups of the J.w's is well known personally to me.


For example one of their founders was a proven liar -


THE NEW WORLD TRANSLATION (Frederick Franz "Lies" under oath.)
In 1950, the Watch Tower Society came out with their own translation of the Bible, the New World Translation. Jehovah's Witnesses are told that this translation is the most accurate, unbiased translation available. The Society claims that the New World Translation Committee was made up of highly trained Greek scholars who did their best to "transmit his (God's) thoughts and declarations as accurately as possible." (18) However, when one endeavors to check into the credentials of these translators, one finds that the Society is unwilling to release this information, stating that the Committee desires that all the glory for this translation go to Jehovah God and therefore the translators desire to remain anonymous.
On the surface, this may sound quite noble and honorable; but one may wonder, is this the real reason why they desire to remain anonymous? Over the years, further investigation has revealed who the translators of the New World Translation were, and the facts show that they were totally unqualified for the task of translation. Four of the five Watchtower Governing Body members who were on the Translation Committee had no formal training whatsoever in the Biblical languages. The fifth one, Fred Franz, (former Governing Body member and Watchtower president from 1977-1992) claimed to have some education, but in the Douglas Walsh Trial in Scotland, he gave this testimony under oath:
Tuesday, 23rd November, 1954: Frederick William Franz, Examined:
Q. Have you also made yourself familiar with Hebrew?
A. Yes....
Q. So that you have a substantial linguistic apparatus at your command?
A. Yes, for use in my biblical work.
Q. I think you are able to read and follow the Bible in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Spanish, Portuguese, German, and French?
A. Yes.
Q. It is the case, is it not, that in 1950 there was prepared and issued what is called the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures?
A. Yes....
Q. I think that it was your duty, was it not, before the issue of that New World Translation by your Society to check that translation for accuracy?
A. That is true.
Q. In light of your studies and in light of your knowledge?
A. That is true.
Q. And did you do so?
A. I did so....
Q. And was it your duty on behalf of the Society to check the translation into English from the original Hebrew of that first volume of the Old Testament Scriptures?
A. Yes....
Q. In so far as translation of the Bible itself is undertaken, are you responsible for that?
A. I have been authorized to examine a translation and determine its accuracy and recommend its acceptance in the form in which it is submitted.
Q. Are the translators members of the Editorial Committee?
A. That is a question which I, as a member of the Board of Directors, am not authorized to disclose....
Q. When did you go to the University?....
Q. Did you graduate?
A. No, I did not....
Q. Had you done any Hebrew in the course of your University work?
A. No, I had not, but in the course of my editorial work, my special research work for the president of the Society, I found it was very necessary to have a knowledge of Hebrew, and so I undertook a personal study of that.
ADJOURNED
Wednesday, 24th November, 1954: Frederick William Franz, Cross Continued:
Q. You, yourself, read and speak Hebrew, do you?
A. I do not speak Hebrew.
Q. You do not?
A. No.
Q. Can you, yourself, translate that into Hebrew?
A. Which?
Q. That fourth verse of the Second Chapter of Genesis?
A. You mean here?
Q. Yes?
A. No, I won't attempt to do that.

- Douglas Walsh Trial, Pursuer's Proof, 1954, pp. 7-9, 88, 91-92, 102-103

This exercise which Franz was unable to do is something which the average first or second year Hebrew student could have accomplished without any difficulty. Is it any wonder the Society refuses to publicly reveal the people who were involved in the translation of their Bible? Would you put your trust in a doctor who refused to give his credentials? Yet, this is what many Jehovah's Witnesses are doing when it comes to vital Bible truth.
Footnotes
18. New World Translation, 1984, p. 5

(My Source: - http://www.reachtheworldforjesus.homestead.com/JWFactsNWT.html )​

From personal experience I know the J.w's have their own internal troubles and their teachings are formed upon the testimony of liars.



As I stated earlier until the J.w's swapped story books they didn't even have a story book Satan naughty fallen heavenly angel spirit being, just simply an ADVERSARY and one of those ADVERSARIES was the story book God itself. Peter was another. Judas was ' a devil '.



Quoting story book text as if it had legitimacy is futile. Unless and or until the story book can be legitimately shown to be what others claim it to be then its content is purely ' story book fantasy

I will commend you for a well researched effort to find the truth.
Craig