The Book of Job

[The Seeker]

In the book of Job, Satan has to be granted permission from God before he is able to inflict pain and suffering on Job. It appears from this story that Satan can only do to us what God allows. If this is the case, why does God let Satan inflict pain and suffering upon people instead of letting us lead happy, pain free lives?

 

[doppelganger]

In the book of Job, Satan has to be granted permission from God before he is able to inflict pain and suffering on Job. It appears from this story that Satan can only do to us what God allows. If this is the case, why does God let Satan inflict pain and suffering upon people instead of letting us lead happy, pain free lives?

I think a careful reading of the story reveals that it's God's vanity that Satan uses to get him to do this. This is why God has no answer to Job's plea for justice other than a show of bullying force.

 

[Halcyon]

Apparently the people who wrote Job believed God tests man to make sure he has strong faith. Presumably those who fail get some form of punishment.

 

[xexon]

Satan?

If you want to see the source of all pain and suffering, look no further than your fellow man.

Its about time people took responsiblity for their own actions instead of pawning them off on a supernatural being.

This world is your mess, not Satan's.


x

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

In the book of Job, Satan has to be granted permission from God before he is able to inflict pain and suffering on Job. It appears from this story that Satan can only do to us what God allows. If this is the case, why does God let Satan inflict pain and suffering upon people instead of letting us lead happy, pain free lives?

Humans do not learn nor benefit, nor become better without some form of challenge. Those challenges may or may not be hard. Just as iron and steel cannot become its best, or reach its bes potential without first being placed in a fire. A potter cannot mold his clay without exerting some force upon it to make it beautiful. Humans are the same. We cannot reach our best potential without undergoing some hardship, some challenge. The hardships that Allah put a person through is never meant to break them, but always to teach a lesson to strengthen, and to make us better. Shaitan is nothing but a tool and he has no ability outside of that which Allah grants.

If we experienced nothing but good what would stop us from becoming complacent? What would make us grateful for the good we have? What would stop us from simply disregarding and taking for granted all the benefits that Allah give to us if we never experience the other side of the coin? Nothing would stop us from reaching a plateau where we did nothing to better ourselves. We are evolving creatures who actively seek change, and become bored, disenchanted, and disinterested very easily.


What is a pain free life anyway? Think of all the possible things that cause various people pain. What is left if we get rid of all that? Death would be done away with because surely that causes pain to the living. Jobs and business would either be done away with or made identical, because surely poverty causes pain to the poor. Some extreme atheists are pained by the presence of theists, so theists must go....and vice versa. How many people would be gone then? Some people are easily pained by the words of others. How do we keep a lid on that? The killing of animals for food causes pain to some vegans, so all people must become either meat eaters or vegetarians/vegans. See where I'm going with this? How do we define pain? Surely it is different for all people. What pains you may not pain me. There is emotional pain, physical pain, psychological pain. How exactly would we live pain free lives?

 

[ChristineES]

I certainly have no evidence, but I have always believed The book of Job to be a parable and not a literal story. It is to show a man who holds on to his faith even while he is suffering. We all have our personal sufferings; mine are my two autistic sons (one is asperger's sydrome, the other is moderately autistic). Despite our personal sufferings, God wants us to hold on to our faith and not turn away from Him because of them. Job was an extreme example of suffering, losing everything and becoming ill. In the end, he regains everything and more and I believe that is our final reward when we return to God.

 

[xexon]

Autism is a facinating subject.

Their world is quite different from ours. You have to learn to speak their language, and not allow personal expectations and desires to be the seeds of your suffering.

They do not know of their condition, other than what you mirror at them to make the comparison.


x

 

[doppelganger]

Autism is a facinating subject.

Their world is quite different from ours. You have to learn to speak their language, and not allow personal expectations and desires to be the seeds of your suffering.

They do not know of their condition, other than what you mirror at them to make the comparison.


x

Do you have personal experience with autism, X?

 

[gnostic]

Humans do not learn nor benefit, nor become better without some form of challenge. Those challenges may or may not be hard.

I can accept challenges that are natural or man-made. I can accept (to an extent) of accidents that occur naturally and artificially.

This event in Book of Job, however, is not natural or man-made. It was a game that both God and Satan were playing. Since God gave permission to kill Job's children, then why shouldn't Job ask some simple questions as to "why" this had happened to him?

Since God was ultimately responsible for death of Job's children, and since God did talk to Job in the end, he still could have answer Job instead of dodging the questions, like lawyer or politician, with threats and boasting of how powerful he is.

This story only prove God's tyranny and that Satan was merely God's middle man. God in this story exhibited nothing god-like...if anything God had proven that he is not immune to human fragility and very human emotions.

Throughout the OT, he exhibits anger (like with Job's questions), jealousy (like in Ten Commandments, and elsewhere in Exodus where God admitted that he is a jealous god), large does of pride and arrogance (as in the story of Job).

Seriously, if God is the only one, how can he be jealous of other gods?

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I can accept challenges that are natural or man-made. I can accept (to an extent) of accidents that occur naturally and artificially.

This event in Book of Job, however, is not natural or man-made. It was a game that both God and Satan were playing. Since God gave permission to kill Job's children, then why shouldn't Job ask some simple questions as to "why" this had happened to him?

Since God was ultimately responsible for death of Job's children, and since God did talk to Job in the end, he still could have answer Job instead of dodging the questions, like lawyer or politician, with threats and boasting of how powerful he is.

This story only prove God's tyranny and that Satan was merely God's middle man. God in this story exhibited nothing god-like...if anything God had proven that he is not immune to human fragility and very human emotions.

Throughout the OT, he exhibits anger (like with Job's questions), jealousy (like in Ten Commandments, and elsewhere in Exodus where God admitted that he is a jealous god), large does of pride and arrogance (as in the story of Job).

Seriously, if God is the only one, how can he be jealous of other gods?

I guess I can see that if you're reading it from a biblical POV. From an Islamic POV Allah does answer Ayyub/Job as to what was the deal. It was also not a game as presented in Islam. Shaitan sought audience with Allah about Ayyub's steadfastness and said that he was only faithful because of his wealth, but if Allah was to take that wealth, He would find Ayyub an ingrate. Allah granted permission to work his spells (which is essentially what it was) but that shaitan could not have power over Ayyub's heart, mind, nor tongue. The point was that shaitan, in his arrogance wanted to make Ayyub blame Allah even just once for his troubles. This was in order to prove himself better than mankind. Allah however, being the knower of hearts understood that no matter what happened Ayyub would never crack. Allah then vested Ayyub with extraordinary amount of forbearance. After all was over, Allah brought back his children and his wealth and his land to Ayyub. Allah also told Ayyub the entire story, and why He allowed it to transpire. It was to show that great worth of mankind when they are patient in trials, and why Allah has chosen humans to be the best among His creations. Ayyub being a prophet of Allah understood it and thanked Allah.

I have not read the biblical account for many years, but maybe I'll give it a read to see how it differs. I am surprised to hear that God is said to have not answered Job's enquiry.

 

[gnostic]

I have not read the biblical account for many years, but maybe I'll give it a read to see how it differs. I am surprised to hear that God is said to have not answered Job's enquiry.

All God did was brag about his powers and rebuked Job for asking question.

 

[The Seeker]

I can accept challenges that are natural or man-made. I can accept (to an extent) of accidents that occur naturally and artificially.

This event in Book of Job, however, is not natural or man-made. It was a game that both God and Satan were playing. Since God gave permission to kill Job's children, then why shouldn't Job ask some simple questions as to "why" this had happened to him?

Since God was ultimately responsible for death of Job's children, and since God did talk to Job in the end, he still could have answer Job instead of dodging the questions, like lawyer or politician, with threats and boasting of how powerful he is.

This story only prove God's tyranny and that Satan was merely God's middle man. God in this story exhibited nothing god-like...if anything God had proven that he is not immune to human fragility and very human emotions.

Throughout the OT, he exhibits anger (like with Job's questions), jealousy (like in Ten Commandments, and elsewhere in Exodus where God admitted that he is a jealous god), large does of pride and arrogance (as in the story of Job).

Seriously, if God is the only one, how can he be jealous of other gods?

I agree with you 100%. I was appalled when I first read this book as a Christian. God allowed Satan to punish Job for no reason other than to test Job to see if he would love God no matter what happened to him. This is a sign of a very demented being.

The portrayal of God in this story is far from flattering and shows that he is far from being perfect and is indeed like us mere mortals.

 

[doppelganger]

The portrayal of God in this story is far from flattering and shows that he is far from being perfect and is indeed like us mere mortals.

I think that's the point of the story. This is why Jesus was necessary, perhaps. Not to redeem humankind, but to redeem an otherwise ridiculous "God.":bow:

 

[The Seeker]

I think that's the point of the story. This is why Jesus was necessary, perhaps. Not to redeem humankind, but to redeem an otherwise ridiculous "God.":bow:

So, you believe that Jesus was God 2.0? I think that Jesus makes a far better god than the God of the OT. Jesus taught love, compassion, forgiveness and righteousness. The God of the OT was at times egotistical, proud, angry, jealous and unforgiving. Hardly traits of a god that should be worshiped.

 

[xexon]

Do you have personal experience with autism, X?

Pardon me while I go off topic, but I feel the need to answer the question.

I don't have any personal experience with autism but I do with schizophrenia. I watched as a good friend of mine, who had been undiagnosed for years, slowly decend into a psychosis from which she never totally returned. Both autism and schizophenia were pet subjects of mine back when I was still learning about the human mind. I've done work with mentally and physically challenged people in years past.

I'm a "sensitive" person. The best way I can decribe what I see with an autistic person is imagine everyone who is born, is born with a number of antennas. I bristle with antennas.They allow reception of the world around me.

An autistic person is someone who has very few antennas, save for a few specialized (and often highly refined) ones, their world is a closed system. Reaching them is alot like picking open a lock with a paper clip. You have to get creative with the bending sometimes.

But it can be done with most. At least to some degree.



x

 

[gnostic]

I think that Jesus makes a far better god than the God of the OT. Jesus taught love, compassion, forgiveness and righteousness.

There is a lot of values in Jesus' teaching, and I agreed with the teaching of compassionate, not judging or persecuting other people, but at the same time I disagree with that his way is the only way.

If you are good person, but you don't believe in any God or Jesus, you are toss in hell. That's not justice or merciful. It would seem a murderer, rapist or pedophile have a better change of getting to heaven if he is believer of Christian god, than a person who committed no crime but have no faith.

This is no better than the OT God. The NT God is equally unforgiving, because a faithless, but good person or a person belong to non-Abrahamic religion would be tormented and punished in hell for all eternally.

So I am not impress with these Christian dogma.

 

[Popeyesays]

One should remember that Job is the character in a morality play, perhaps the very first recorded morality play. He is "Everyman". Job may well be the first Book of the Bible ever to be written down.

A morality play, probably performed once a year or so in the community, we shouldn't take it for anything more.

Regards,
Scott

 

[doppelganger]

Pardon me while I go off topic, but I feel the need to answer the question.

Mind if I start a new thread with this post, x?

 

[doppelganger]

So, you believe that Jesus was God 2.0?

No. I don't objectify God 1.0 personally, so I have no need for a God 2.0. But given the nature of God 1.0, I can see why process theology requires Jesus to redeem him.

 

[xexon]

Mind if I start a new thread with this post, x?

Be my guest. Religious iconology plays a prominent role in schizoid fantasy, so its still on topic material. x