The Bible vs. Christian theology

[Pegg]

According to the verse, death is gone.

right, so how can the dead be suffering in there?

 

[Pegg]

Ah..right..he just cosmically zaps places like Sodom and Gommorah, for breaking some rules.

He puts an end to the life of the wicked. He doesnt allow them to continue to live in any form. Its that simple.

 

[JayJayDee]

Ah..right..he just cosmically zaps places like Sodom and Gommorah, for breaking some rules.

Sodom and Gomorrah were literal earthly cities with literal people who were obliterated from existence because of their extremely immoral lifestyle. There was no trace left of them. They did not go anywhere, for the simple reason that the Bible does not support the notion of an immortal soul. Death is actually death....not the continuation of life in another form.

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10..."For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; there is no longer any reward for them, because all memory of them is lost.......Whatever task comes your way to do, do it with all your strength; because in Sh’ol, where you will go, there is neither working nor planning, neither knowledge nor wisdom." (CJB)

Psalm 6:5....."for in death, no one remembers you; in Sh’ol, who will praise you?" (CJB)

Psalm 115:17...."The dead can’t praise Adonai, not those who sink down into silence." (CJB)

The Jews had no belief in life after death....they believed in a future resurrection under the Messiah's Kingdom, restored to Israel on earth. This is what Jesus demonstrated when he raised people from the dead. They were returned to this life and given back to their families.

 

[e.r.m.]

right, so how can the dead be suffering in there?

Because their souls are not dead Because there is no death.

 

[JayJayDee]

Because their souls are not dead Because there is no death.

What did God tell Adam in the garden?

"And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen 3:17-19)

If there was a hell of eternal torment awaiting him if he sinned, why did God not warn him?

All God said was that Adam would go back to where he came from.
Where was he before God created him?........He simply didn't exist.

 

[Pegg]

Because their souls are not dead Because there is no death.

if you believe in the teachings of Plato maybe. But that is not what the bible 'soul' is.

According to Plato:
“The soul, . . . if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, . . . goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear . . . and all the other human ills, and . . . lives in truth through all after time with the gods.”—Phaedo,80, D, E; 81, A.


The bible soul is the living creature....both animals and humans are souls.
The 'soul' or 'neʹphesh' in hebrew are first described at Genesis 1:20-23. “‘Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls [neʹphesh] and let flying creatures fly over the earth . . .’ And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul [neʹphesh] that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind.”
And then neʹphesh / soul is also applied to the “domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth” as “living souls.”—Ge 1:24.

all of which are 'mortal' including mankind. Moratality means we can die....the opposite of life is death. There is nothing inside us which keeps living.

 

[Kolibri]

According to the verse, death is gone.

what kind of death is gone though? Isn't it death due to imperfection? we won't all be granted immortality. (that is only for those that are resurrected to heavenly life.) if we sin deliberately before or after the weakness to sin is removed from our bodies, we will still be able to be put to death.

No more will there be an infant from that place who lives but a few days,
Nor an old man who fails to live out his days.
For anyone who dies at a hundred will be considered a mere boy,
And the sinner will be cursed, even though he is a hundred years of age.
(or possibly, "And the one who falls short of a hundred will be considered cursed.")
- Isaiah 65:20

"But whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever but is guilty of everlasting sin."
- Mark 3:29 (Matthew 12:32 specifically mentions "not in this age, nor in that to come.")

"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgement and a burning expectation of judgement and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition." - Hebrews 10:26

Adamic death - the death we get from being born imperfect is what will be done away with. As long as we are mortal beings, we can still be put to sleep eternally if we sin willfully.

 

[sojourner]

Is there any kind of contradiction or discrepancy in what Christians believe and what the bible actually says?

What does the bible "actually say?"

 

[Muffled]

Well, the thing I don't understand about it is God metes out punishment for all eternity on more people than he saves (Matthew 7:13) and yet somehow he has infinite mercy upon people.


Everyone who hears or everyone? And how does God offer that to everyone?


But isn't redemption a choice we make for ourselves? Why can't people just change their minds about certain issues and becoming better people as a result of that? How is God's love and grace even a factor in this equation? I think that sin is primarily a mentality that leads to destructive action.

I believe "many" does not equate with "more."

I believe I have never seen anything that says God's mercy is infinite.

I believe everyone hears.

I believe we do not have the power to redeem ourselves but we can choose to have God redeem us.

I believe that can happen to some extent but there will still be things that are difficult to overcome.

I believe grace provides salvation from sin.

I believe that is just the tip of the iceburg.

 

[Muffled]

Since God can create a bush that doesn't burn up Exodus 3:2-3, He can keep people from burning up in the lake of fire.

I believe He could but I have seen no evidence to suggest that He does that and the Holy Spirit tells me He doesn't.

 

[Muffled]

I've heard hades is a holding place for the dead until judgement day.

I believe that sounds good but there is no Biblical evidence to support that concept.

 

[rusra02]

I've been wondering about this a while.

Christians and non Christians alike: Is there any kind of contradiction or discrepancy in what Christians believe and what the bible actually says?

For example, Christians commonly believe that God is omni-benevolent and that his love is unconditional when in John chapter 3 verse 18 Jesus clearly says, "Whoever believes in him [the son] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in the son stands condemned already..." Isn't that conditional love? If God were really omni-benevolent wouldn't he just be able to forgive people of their sins out of the goodness of his heart?

The same thing in Revelation chapter 20 verse 10, John writes, "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Well so much for loving your enemies.

Is there even a possibility of post mortem salvation? In first Peter chapter 3 verse 19 through 20 Peter says, "After being made alive, he [Jesus] went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits- those who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built..." If not, then is God truly merciful?

If God is nothing but love why create a place of eternal torment, unless that torment is only supposed to be temporary?

I think I believe in post mortem salvation and if you believe the same about the character of God (omni-benevolence), I think you do too deep down.

I think you have several issues imbedded in your post. Regarding the spirits mentioned at 1 Peter 3:19,20, I believe these are the spirit "sons of God" mentioned at Genesis 6:2; disobedient angels mentioned in Jude 6. Apparently the message preached to these was one of their coming destruction. The Bible nowhere teaches universal salvation. IMO. God's love is offered to all, but those who reject it remain in God's righteous wrath.(John 3:36) finally, there is no place of eternal torment. The lake of fire mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbol of everlasting destruction.

 

[RedDragon94]

Your comment implies that punishment is somehow not deserved.

I disagree, all that I'm trying to imply is that the judgement of God outweighs the goodness of God.

If a man murders someone, gets convicted for the crime that he actually did commit and gets sentenced to 'life without parole' because by his very nature his is and will always be a danger to 'society', is it somehow unjust of the Governor to not grant him a full pardon and release him?

Here's what I don't understand, (You're a Reformed Baptist, right?) how does God's goodness play into predestination when the people that are in need of being saved have to call out on the one that put them in the dire situation that they are in to begin with?

The goal is not to see how close one can get to 'damned' and still squeak through the gate and into heaven ...

I'm just thinking about people who have no desire to know God. If what comes out of the mouth of Jesus (like in Matthew 7:13) is set in stone then it seems like God doesn't really win in the end if he has to send almost everybody to hell. How does God offer to redeem everyone when he's already decided who goes to heaven?

 

[RedDragon94]

What does the bible "actually say?"

I don't know. I don't know what I'm thinking.

 

[atpollard]

I disagree, all that I'm trying to imply is that the judgement of God outweighs the goodness of God.

I see no conflict.
To allow evil to continue to run unrestrained forever does not seem like an act of 'goodness'.

Here's what I don't understand, (You're a Reformed Baptist, right?) how does God's goodness play into predestination when the people that are in need of being saved have to call out on the one that put them in the dire situation that they are in to begin with?

What real evidence is there that God 'put them in the dire situation in the first place'?
People do evil things all of the time for a variety of reasons, and complain when we reap what we have sown.
That is not God's fault.
He offers a solution on a 'take it or leave it' basis.
You are free to take it or leave it.
Predestination means, at a minimum, that God already knows which choice you will make.

I'm just thinking about people who have no desire to know God. If what comes out of the mouth of Jesus (like in Matthew 7:13) is set in stone then it seems like God doesn't really win in the end if he has to send almost everybody to hell. How does God offer to redeem everyone when he's already decided who goes to heaven?

The offer is available to all.
Even if everyone says 'no' to the offer and no one 'goes to heaven', Jesus died and rose so that 'whom so ever' could be forgiven ... on God's terms.

This really seems to come down to 'Why can't God just do things MY way?'
... "because HE is God and YOU are not" is the best answer that I can offer.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Because their souls are not dead Because there is no death.

I will grant you this much,

Once one is dead there is no death.

At least no consciousness of it.

 

[DoubtingNate]

Christians and non Christians alike: Is there any kind of contradiction or discrepancy in what Christians believe and what the bible actually says?

Boy is there ever! Because the Bible itself is full of contradictions, and because throughout history Christians have always adapted their interpretation of Scripture to contemporary ethics and morality. Case in point: slavery. Most Christians today believe slavery is wrong, despite the fact that it is clearly condoned in Scripture.

 

[Muffled]

Boy is there ever! Because the Bible itself is full of contradictions, and because throughout history Christians have always adapted their interpretation of Scripture to contemporary ethics and morality. Case in point: slavery. Most Christians today believe slavery is wrong, despite the fact that it is clearly condoned in Scripture.

I believe the Bible condones divorce but God hates it anyway.

I believe although slavery is condoned there is also an injuction against it as well. The same is true for multiple wives.

I believe if a person wishes to be pure he will not divorce, own slaves or have multiple wives.

 

[DoubtingNate]

where are the injunctions against slavery??

 

[Muffled]

where are the injunctions against slavery??

De 21:14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not deal with her as a slave, because thou hast humbled her.
De 24:7 If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and he deal with him as a slave, or sell him; then that thief shall die: so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.