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The Bible - Divine Revelation Or Superstitious Myth

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Wleeper, Oct 1, 2004.

  1. Wleeper

    Wleeper Member

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    THE BIBLE - DIVINE REVELATION OR SUPERSTITIOUS MYTH
    Wayne D. Leeper

    This is a legitimate question that deserves honest consideration. There are, however, only three types of people who approach this question in an intellectually honest manner.
    1. There are those who would maintain that there is no God. They are atheist who subscribe to the big bang theory and the theory of evolution. They have every right to this position and are intellectually honest enough to publicly state their position. Their opinion, even if disagreed with, must be respected as being intellectually honest and their belief should also be respected, not ridiculed.
    2. There are those who believe that God does exist and did create the world and everything in it. They are call theist and, while believing in God, do not believe that the Bible is His inspired word but just another philosophy of man. While it is a very good guideline for life, it is not divinely inspired and therefore subject to human error and opinion. These people are also intellectually honest and forthright with their opinions and also deserve to be respected.
    3. The final category of people who are intellectually honest are those who believe that there is a God who created our world and all that is in it and believe that the Bible is the inspired and inerrant word of God. They are called Christians and believe they must conform their lives to the teachings of the Bible if they are to have the rewards that are promised to those who “love Jesus and keep his commandments.” This category represents the vast majority of Americans.
    Unfortunately, there is another category of people who are not intellectually honest and who, while claiming to believe in God and the Bible, want to bend its teachings to conform to their own preferred lifestyles. These people want to treat the Bible as a cafeteria plan where they can pick and choose what they want to accept and what they want to reject. This category of people are not deserving of anyone’s respect because they are intellectually dishonest and lack the intestinal fortitude to stand by their own stated convictions.
    They can usually be spotted because of their propensity to focus on the love of God and Jesus for mankind. They believe that this love will cause God to overlook their lifestyles and accept them just as readily as he accepts those who strive to make obedience to His word their way of life. In the end they will find that their sinful lifestyle will only lead to their own eternal destruction. Furthermore, they like to claim that those who oppose their lifestyle are being judgmental and intolerant.
    What they fail to understand is that it is not their fellow man who is judging them, it is the Bible and the God who inspired it. There are certainly passages of the Bible that are difficult to understand and there is no doubt that the Bible has been used to justify horrendous acts on the part of mankind. The fact that it has been misconstrued and misused, however, is the fault of man, not God, and in no way takes away from its truth and validity. Pointing out what God says to persons who claim to believe in God and the Bible is not bashing, it is an act of love and concern for others on the part of true Christians. The true Christian wants everyone to be saved and has been commanded by the Bible to go into all the world and teach the gospel of Jesus Christ.
    Today our nation is faced with serious division over several moral issues. The most current of these issues is the debate over homosexually and same sex marriage. If there is a God, and if the Bible is his inspired word then when it speaks to this topic it must be listened to and obeyed. There is absolutely no ambiguity to what the Bible teaches concerning homosexuality and, by extension, same sex marriage. Notice the two New Testament passages which directly address this subject and how simple and strait forward they are.
    Therefore God gave them up to uncleanness, in the lust of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves .....For even their women exchanged the natural use for that which is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.” (Romans 1:24-32) (NKJ) [Emphasis added]
    What is there about this passage that is difficult to understand? It is a condemnation of the homosexual lifestyle, whether practiced by men or women. It further states that those who practice these things are deserving of death. This death sentence will be required as the righteous judgment of God. I should hasten to add that this sentence will be pronounced by God at the judgment. It in no way gives us the right to condemn these people to death. The second passage that deserves our attention states:
    Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, Neither the fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” (I Corinthians 6:9-10)(NKJ) [Emphases added]
    Notice two things about this passage. First notice the company into which God places these people who are having a “committed and loving long term relationship.” Second, notice the very clear statement that these people will in no wise be allowed to enter the kingdom of God. Ether a person will spend eternity in the “kingdom of God” or in the “kingdom of Satan.” There is no other way to understand these passages and it is the homosexuals who, through their chosen lifestyle, are condemning themselves to the kingdom of Satan for all eternity.
    God loves every person who has ever dwelled on this earth and sincerely wants every one of His children in heaven for eternity. The fact that some choose not to go there takes nothing away from the love of God or the teachings of His word.
    Finally, it is totally illogical to claim that God has created people who are genetically forced into a particular lifestyle then sentences them to eternal destruction for adhering to the lifestyle into which they were created. Homosexuality is not a defect of birth, but a matter of choice. Just because a person has a desire for something does not mean that he will not be punished for acting on that desire. We cannot blame God for our own shortcomings. Our prisons are filled with people who acted on their desires.
    Every person has the God given right to decide for themselves whether the Bible is divinely inspired or just a myth created by the mind of man. Then if they are intellectually honest they will live their lives in accordance with their belief. Those who claim to believe in God and the Bible but want to treat it as a cafeteria plan have no right to expect that others will respect them or any hope that God will justify them.
    If this nation wants to continue enjoying the blessings of God for ourselves and our posterity we must never allow the teachings of the Bible to be compromised and we must never allow immorality to be legalized.
     
  2. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason Doctor of Thinkology

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    WLeeper -

    First - not all atheists (or agnostics for that matter) necessarily accept either the big bang theory or evolution - but it was nice of you to lump them all together. If you had eliminated the second sentence (in its entirety) you would have been fine.

    Second - I'm fairly certain that some people are in the second group, but I don't know that they would all be Theists. That is, there are some Agnostics and Atheists that would agree that the Bible is a decent guide for life (although extremely flawed in some ways). There are Theists, Atheists, and Agnostics that would suggest you could do a lot better than the Bible as a starting point for your morals. Either way, the point of it not being inspired by the word of God is probably applicable to many of this group.

    Third - I am simply asking the question: Did you post this as a thread to spark debate about the Bible (whether it is divinely inspired or simply another book written by men), or is it your intention to use this thread as a soapbox from which to state your belief in the Bible? Since you posted this in the Debates section, it would appear to me that you are inviting others to debate which category the Bible falls into, yet the last half of your post seems dedicated to the "soapbox". Either way, I am simply trying to determine which line you are taking in this thread.

    Regards,
    TVOR
     
  3. Wleeper

    Wleeper Member

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    Thank you for your response. I do in fact have a typo in the second sentence of the paragraph that you refer to. It should have read "There are athiest....", not "They are athiest..." Thank you for pointing this out.

    Second, there is difference of course between the atheist and the agnostic. The atheist says, "there is no God.", while the agnostic says, "I don't know if there is a God or not." Neither accept the Bible as the divine word of God.

    The point of my post is to show that some people are intellectually honest and deserve to be respected, even though I may personally strongly with their positions. I started by showing three categories of such people. The majority of the posters on these threads, however, do not fall into one of these categores and their post clearly demonstrate that while having little regard and even less understanding of either God or the teachings of the Bible, yet they still attempt to use and misuse it to justify their immoral conduct. This group of people are not intellectually honest and do not deserve anyone's respect.

    For instance, I have read a number of post claiming that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. Jesus condemned both "adultry and fornication" in Matthew 15:19.
    The two greek words translated here refer to every sexual act that can be performed outside of the sanctioned relationship of marriage between one man and one woman. Adultry refers to any sexual act committed by a married person that is not with their spouse. Fornication refers to every sexual act committed by individuals who are not in a one man, one woman marital relationship. Homosexuality could occur in either of these categories and is condemned by Jesus in both. If fact, as does Paul, He places it in the same category with murder, theft, false witnessing and blasphemy. All, He says, "defile a person."

    This is just one example of the many misuses of the Bible that I have seen on this forum.
     
  4. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason Doctor of Thinkology

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    Wleeper -

    Okay - now I understand the intent of your post. I have to say that I fall into the Agnostic category, and do not accept the Bible as the inspired word of God. For that reason (along with the fact that I only studied the Bible through my teenage years - and do not have the depth of knowledge about it that you will see in a post by SOGPFF or Deut 32.8) I never quote the Bible (in this forum or any other). Any and every position I take in any debate is based solely on rational thought and the morals that I have developed in my lifetime (most of which came from my parents, who believed devoutly in the Bible).
    I hope to meet you in other threads as time goes on.

    May you find peace with your God.

    TVOR
     
  5. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Since you are using homosexuality as the example of intellectually honesty, it appears you are "killing two birds with one stone".

    I hope that you undersatnd that intellectual honesty is more likely not confined to just three categories in relation to God's Word. I can think of some that say the exact wording of God is limited to the times and tenor of the people involed with God - that the circumstances of the word is also essential for understanding the word. Very few people today hold the ascetic views of the biblical times but still possess an abiding love for God. This would argue that the salvation promised by the Christian word today has a different focus from the "purity" of the biblical era - that it is primarily by grace and love given by God (with some adding works and/or faith on the part of the recepient).

    This understanding, honestly acquired through prayer answered by God and the reading of his word, leads to the acceptance of homosexuality as a valid, moral mode of expressing corporal love.

    -pah-
     
  6. Wleeper

    Wleeper Member

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    Thank you Pah. You just validated my argument
     
  7. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    .....?????.....
     
  8. Wleeper

    Wleeper Member

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    Think about it. I am sure the answer will come to you in time.
     
  9. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    It must be this -
    -pah-
     
  10. Wleeper

    Wleeper Member

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    Sorry. No cigar.
     
  11. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason Doctor of Thinkology

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    Pah -

    He is saying that you are using the Bible to make your point and yet you don't feel like homosexuality is a sin, you are proving his point of not being intellectually honest.

    Am I right, WLeeper?

    TVOR

    PS - Leeper - you did notice that pah is an Atheist, didn't you? I realize that your position is that pah is still using the Bible to support her argument, but I don't think pah would include him/herself in the group that believes in the Bible. Then again, I can't (and don't) speak for pah.
     
  12. Wleeper

    Wleeper Member

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    Bingo. You picked up on that point right away. He argues that the Bible, in which he doesn't believe, can be interpreted to support immorality and that the God whom he also doesn't believe in is so loving that He will accept even those who deny His existance and deny the unchanging validity of His word. A very intellectually dishonest position to maintain.
     
  13. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Hey! I only parrot what comes from some Christian folks. You should pay more attention to the message and not the messenger. It may be more dishonest to ignore the message.

    You don't get rid of the message that easily - just by denying my credentials.

    -pah-
     
  14. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    How is it intellectually dishonest to point out inconsistencies within someones moral code?
     
  15. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    The salvation promise has not changed in two thousands years, nor does it have a different focus, it has always been by the grace and love of God(works don't do anything for you). The thing that has changed is that some(alot of) people don't want to accept that you must repent and give up your sinful ways.
     
  16. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    I am pointing out that the sin has changed - that is no longer follows philispohical ascetism for some.

    -pah
    -
     
  17. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Ok, wish you had said it that simply before.

    Though it seems strange to me that someone can say, hey you know what, there are nice people who love God and Jesus that are (insert describatory phrase of a sin), so it's no longer a sin, or something along those lines.
     
  18. Wleeper

    Wleeper Member

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    It is worth noting that parrots seldom if ever have an original thought. They repeat what they have heard with absolutly no understanding of what they are saying. If there is one overriding fact that runs through the Bible is that our God is an unchanging God. The same yesterday, today, and forever. Sin and immorality are not dependent on the times in which one lives. Furthermore, what people are willing to accept has absolutly no bearing on what God is willing to accept.
     
  19. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

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    Ad hominum innuendo is unnecessary and fallacious - the problem with many Bible-thumping fundamentalists is not that they "[n]ever have an original thought", but that the many non-original thoughts they trumpet are driven by dogma rather than reason.

    ( I'll bet that what follows is an unevidenced statement of faith rather than fact. ;) )

    What a frightening thought, especially for any Midianite whose ancestors managed to survive the Lord's attempted genocide. Then again, there is always hope, e.g.:
    ( As I said: an unevidenced statement of faith rather than fact. :D )
     
  20. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    They are however dependent upon an ancient unverifiable book that I and many others have no faith in (as far as you`re concerned)

    Why must those that see tha falsity of this book live by its inconsistent obfuscated lessons?
     
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