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The Bible declares that Jesus is God

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Do you pay attention to what you write? Or are you that blind?

The 'slave' teaches that the "organization is likened to Noah's Ark", wasn't the "ark" salvation for Noah and his family? Yes, yes it was!!


No matter what the blind think--Jesus is head of his religion. You think its an organization, but Jesus' one religion is controlled by him. Noah took orders from God to accomplish his salvation--it works the same today--One had better be aboard the ark-PER SE before the tribulation begins.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Two points that I would like to bring out.

You appear to agree with 1 John 4:14 and John 4:42 that Jesus is the Savior of the world.

To be consistent, how do you harmonize that New Testament truth with Isaiah 43:10-11 “You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. 11 “I, even I, am the Lord, And there is no savior besides Me.

And Deut.32:39 ‘See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Only YHWH is declared the only Savior and the only God even a small g god. And yet the JW position says Jesus is the Savior and Jesus is a god.

Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.

The orthodox Christian view recognizes and accepts the truth below which reveals the harmony of these passages of Scripture declaring Jesus as YHWH..



Here is the file.

Scriptures Identifying Jesus as Yahweh
Taken from James White in The Forgotten Trinity (Chapter 9, endnote 2)

Mtt. 1:21; Psa. 130:8; Isa. 35:4 [God will save His people]
Mtt. 3:12; Rev. 6:16; Psa. 2:12; 76:7 [Fear God]
Mtt. 5:18; Mk. 13:31 [God’s word is eternal; Jesus’ word is eternal]
Mtt. 25:31-46; Psa. 50:6; 59:11; 96:13 [God is Judge, Jesus is Judge]
Jn. 1:3; Isa. 44:24 [Yahweh alone created all things]
Jn. 1:7-9; Isa. 60:9 [God is light]
Jn. 7:37-38; Jer. 2:13 [Yahweh the fountain of living water]
Jn. 10:11; Psa. 23:1; 110:3 [The Good Shepherd]
Jn. 12:41; Isa. 6:1 [The vision of Isaiah—Yahweh’s glory]
Jn. 14:6; Psa. 31:5 [God is truth]
Jn. 14:14; 1 Cor. 1:2 [Prayer to Jesus]
Jn. 14:26; 16:27; Rom. 8:9; 1 Pet. 1:11; Neh. 9:20; 2 Sam 23:2-3 [Spirit of Yahweh/God/Christ]
Jn. 17:5; Isa. 48:11 [Will not give His glory to another]
Acts 1:8; Isa. 43:10 [Witness of Whom?]
Acts 4:24; 2 Pet. 2:1; Jude 4 [Who is our Master?]
Rom. 10:13; Joel 2:32 [Call on the name of…]
Eph. 4:8-9; Psa. 68:18 [God leads the captives…]
Phil. 2:10-11; Isa. 45:23 [Every knee will bow…]
Col. 1:16; Eph. 5:25, 27; Rom. 11:36 [All things are to God…]
Col. 1:17; Acts 17:28 [We exist in God]
Col. 2:3; 1 Tim. 1:17 [Only wise God…treasure of wisdom]
2 Tim. 1:12; Jer. 17:5 [Trust in Yahweh—believe in Jesus]
Heb. 1:3; 1 Tim. 6:15 [Jesus’ power—God is only sovereign]
Heb. 1:10; Psa. 102:25 [Jesus is Yahweh]
Heb. 13:8; Mal. 3:6 [God changes not]
Jms. 2:1; Zech. 2:5 [Lord of glory]
1 Pet. 2:3; Psa. 34:8 [Taste that Yahweh is good]
1 Pet. 3:15; Isa. 8:13 [Sanctify Yahweh]
Rev. 1:5-6; Exod. 34:14 [Glorify Jesus]
Rev. 1:13-16; Ezek. 43:2 [God’s voice is the voice of Jesus]
Rev. 2:23; 1 Kings 8:39 [Jesus searches the hearts]
Rev. 3:7; Revelation 15:4 [God alone is holy]


Jesus wasn't the savior until he completed his earthly task living a sinless existence, if he failed and sinned he would not be anyones savior. But he didn't sin --In the ot--only YHVH was savior at that point in time. Not a single living being ever heard of a Jesus in the OT.by name.
It was Michael who stood up for men--Daniel 12:1--It was Michael who came to earth and was named Jesus as a mortal.
James white twisted reality as all false Christian religions have. Let him explain this--John 20:17, Rev3:12--How does God have a God, yet there is one God?
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
You are missing the point--If Jesus were God, he already would have the power. It had to be given to him.

Please stop getting off "point", which is, you claim satan is some powerful being. And I claim he's not, that's the point here, not if Jesus is God or not!
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Noah took orders from God to accomplish his salvation--it works the same today--One had better be aboard the ark-PER SE before the tribulation begins.

It does NOT work the same today. Show me one scripture that says one must be in an organization to attain salvation, just one!
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
No matter what the blind think--Jesus is head of his religion. You think its an organization,

"I think" that, because that's what your 'slave' teaches. You don't think it's an organization?


*** w15 2/15 p. 7 par. 10 Imitate Jesus’ Humility and Tenderness ***
It takes lowliness of mind to “be obedient to those who are taking the lead” in the congregation and to accept and follow the direction we receive from Jehovah’s organization

*** w15 2/15 p. 16 Maintain Your Zeal for the Ministry ***
What convinced him that this is Jehovah’s organization?

*** w15 2/15 p. 17 Maintain Your Zeal for the Ministry ***
Jehovah’s organization regularly offers suggestions designed to help us improve our ministry.

*** w15 3/15 p. 8 par. 4 “This Is the Way You Approved” ***
In recent years, the spiritual instruction provided by Jehovah’s organization.

*** w15 3/15 p. 9 par. 8 “This Is the Way You Approved” ***
The apostle Paul discussed a number of them. For example, Abraham’s relationship with Hagar and Sarah provided a prophetic picture of Jehovah’s relationship with the nation of Israel and the heavenly part of God’s organization.

*** w15 4/15 p. 13 par. 17 How Elders Train Others to Become Qualified ***
The need for change is determined, not by your desire for change, but by the needs of the congregation and the direction we receive from Jehovah’s organization.


Shall I go on? Is it not an organization?
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Jesus wasn't the savior until he completed his earthly task living a sinless existence, if he failed and sinned he would not be anyones savior. But he didn't sin --In the ot--only YHVH was savior at that point in time. Not a single living being ever heard of a Jesus in the OT.by name.
It was Michael who stood up for men--Daniel 12:1--It was Michael who came to earth and was named Jesus as a mortal.
James white twisted reality as all false Christian religions have. Let him explain this--John 20:17, Rev3:12--How does God have a God, yet there is one God?

So this is your rebuttal against my argument which also utilized James White's 32 Scripture references demonstrating Christ as YHWH? Debate interaction is something that you need to study in order to be taken seriously and if you want to be regarded as a rational opponent. If someone does not directly respond to their opponents proposition presented in debate but runs down rabbit trails or other non-responses they are simply considered absurd. And there has been virtually no direct responses attempting to refute the Scriptural and historical evidence or syllogisms that the Bible Declares Jesus is God.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
I read the first 11 pages or so and could see time and time again the non Trinitarians proving Jesus pbuh was not God, nor did he claim to be. They showed multiple instances of mistranslated verses used by Trinitarians.

Strangely, I saw otherwise. The Trinitarian position is not only supported by scriptural translation but also through the vast majority of early and reliable manuscripts. Lastly it's supported by historical evidence as well. The non-Trinitarians appear unable to defend their doctrine in the same manner they appear unable to defend scripture.

Many First Century followers of Jesus pbuh including his family did not think him to be God.

Really?

So how do you explain the early patriarchs of the church? You know, the one BEFORE Nicea???:

Polycarp (60-185 AD)

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead. (Letter to the Phillipians)​

Or Ignatius (50-117 AD)?

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy. (Letter to the Ephesians).

There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord. (Letter to the Ephesians)​

Or Justin Martyr (100-165 AD):

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts. (Dialogue with Trypho)​

Historically, it's pretty easy to show the early church believed Jesus was God. Even Arius believed Jesus was God.

The DSS and Gospels left out of the NT show he was thought to be a mighty Prophet on par with Angels. Much as we might imagine is the rank of Moses pbuh, Abraham pbuh etc.

I think certain writings were “left out” for a reason.

The Roman have merely replaced their worship of the Sun with the Son of God, and declared 'Sun' worship Day the blessed day to glorify him.

Source please?

While “Son” and “Sun” are English homophones, it’s not the case in Vulgar Latin. “Son” translates as “filius” while “sun” translates as “solius”. It’s hard to envision the Romans making a tenuous relation between "son" and "sun" when any such tenuous relationship exists only in English…a language which wouldn't exist until hundreds of years in the future.

Ultimately anyone ascribing partners unto God is in truth worshipping the Devil, for all he wants is to take you to hell with him.
Peace

Trinitarians do not ascribe partners unto God, but I can’t say the same for our Arian friends who have adopted a pagan demi-God Christology. At least on this one point we can agree.

Peace & blessings to you as well.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
No matter what the blind think--Jesus is head of his religion. You think its an organization, but Jesus' one religion is controlled by him. Noah took orders from God to accomplish his salvation--it works the same today--One had better be aboard the ark-PER SE before the tribulation begins.

I'm totally lost on how you draw parallels between your Organization and Noah's arc.

Your Organization has a history of ever changing truths. Can you imagine what would have happened if God asked your Governing Board to build an arc?

God: What are you doing?

GB: We're building a shark, just like you asked.

God: I asked your Organization to build an arc!

GB: New light..we're building a tarp!

God: Tarp? Who told you that?? I said arc!

GB: Forgive us Lord, we are only fallible humans.

God: You're forgiven... Now if you can kindly get started...

GB: Yes God, but we will need a boat to fish for carp.

God: Look, I need you to listen carefully. Build an arc...A-R-C!!

GB: New truth! The light get's brighter!! We are building an ARCH!!!

At this Jehovah send down a mighty lightening bolt, which narrowly misses the GB.

GB: Flashes of light! We are building an Arc!

God: Yes, FINALLY! Build an ARC, out of gopher wood, just like I told you...wait...why are you collecting gophers?

GB: We will build an arc of gophers so that we may tack toward more truth. We just have one more question...What did you say the gophers would do?

GOD: Forget it guys...I'm awarding the contract to Noah and his family. I think they'll do a much better job.
In all seriousness KJW, I think your Watchtower's history of "ever changing truths" makes it extremely unlikely your Organization could ever construct an arc. You can continually place your faith in an Organization, but as a Christian, I place mine in Jesus, for which there are no "substitutes".
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
You are missing the point--If Jesus were God, he already would have the power. It had to be given to him.

In Christ's condescension He laid aside the use of His Divine prerogatives to fulfill His work as the Last Adam - man's representative substitute before God. This is addressed in post 21 page 2.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
I read the first 11 pages or so and could see time and time again the non Trinitarians proving Jesus pbuh was not God, nor did he claim to be. They showed multiple instances of mistranslated verses used by Trinitarians.

Many First Century followers of Jesus pbuh including his family did not think him to be God. The DSS and Gospels left out of the NT show he was thought to be a mighty Prophet on par with Angels. Much as we might imagine is the rank of Moses pbuh, Abraham pbuh etc.

The Roman have merely replaced their worship of the Sun with the Son of God, and declared 'Sun' worship Day the blessed day to glorify him.

Ultimately anyone ascribing partners unto God is in truth worshipping the Devil, for all he wants is to take you to hell with him.
Peace

As I have repeatedly tried to draw @kjw47 into a more logical debate forum where certain procedures are followed that elevate the interaction of the opponents to a more formal debate setting. May I also encourage you to that level. I can't think of one person, who opposes the Deity of Christ, that went to the Biblical texts, Patristic evidence, or the syllogisms that I presented that interacted directly with that evidence that supported my thesis: The Bible declares that Jesus is God. Oh, all offered their feelings and opinions and even tried to support their unbelief by going to other texts and secular encyclopedias and dictionaries (which I have occasionally used) but would not or could not engage or refute or invalidate my texts, syllogisms or historical evidence. They simply turned away to rabbit trails and offered no direct, relevant, contrary exposition of the evidence. Their presupposition (of the rejection of the Deity of Christ as affirmed in Scripture) was so strong that they couldn't lay aside their bias and focus specifically on my propositions and attempt to refute them. We all, on both sides, have our foundational beliefs. We all, also, have our ultimate authority. For the Christian it is the Holy Scriptures because they are theopneustos (God breathed).

Regarding the Holy Scriptures the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith states:

Chapter 1 - The Holy Scriptures
1. The Holy Scriptures are the only sufficient, certain, and infallible standard of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience.1 The light of nature and the works of creation and providence so clearly demonstrate the goodness, wisdom, and power of God that people are left without excuse; however, these demonstrations are not sufficient to give the knowledge of God and his will that is necessary for salvation.2 Therefore, the Lord was pleased at different times and in various ways to reveal himself and to declare his will to his church.3 To preserve and propagate the truth better and to establish and comfort the church with greater certainty against the corruption of the flesh and the malice of Satan and the world, the Lord put this revelation completely in writing. Therefore, the Holy Scriptures are absolutely necessary, because God’s former ways of revealing his will to his people have now ceased.4

12 Timothy 3:15–17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20. 2Romans 1:19–21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalm 19:1–3. 3Hebrews 1:1. 4Proverbs 22:19–21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19, 20.

2. The Holy Scriptures, or the Word of God written, consist of all the books of the Old and New Testaments. These are:

THE OLD TESTAMENT: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi.

THE NEW TESTAMENT: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, Revelation.

All of these are given by the inspiration of God to be the standard of faith and life.5

5 2 Timothy 3:16. (All Scripture is [h]inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. Footnotes: h 2 Timothy 3:16 Lit God-breathed mine)

3. The books commonly called the Apocrypha were not given by divine inspiration and so are not part of the canon or standard of the Scriptures. Therefore, they have no authority for the church of God and are not to be recognized or used in any way different from other human writings. 6

6 Luke 24:27, 44; Romans 3:2.

4. The authority of the Holy Scriptures obligates belief in them. This authority does not depend on the testimony of any person or church but on God the author alone, who is truth itself. Therefore, the Scriptures are to be received because they are the Word of God.7

7 2 Peter 1:19–21; 2 Timothy 3:16; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 John 5:9.

5. The testimony of the church of God may stir and persuade us to adopt a high and reverent respect for the Holy Scriptures. Moreover, the heavenliness of the contents, the power of the system of truth, the majesty of the style, the harmony of all the parts, the central focus on giving all glory to God, the full revelation of the only way of salvation, and many other incomparable qualities and complete perfections, all provide abundant evidence that the Scriptures are the Word of God. Even so, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority of the Scriptures comes from the internal work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.8

8 John 16:13,14; 1 Corinthians 2:10–12; 1 John 2:20, 27.

6. The whole counsel of God concerning everything essential for his own glory and man’s salvation, faith, and life is either explicitly stated or by necessary inference contained in the Holy Scriptures. Nothing is ever to be added to the Scriptures, either by new revelation of the Spirit or by human traditions.9
Nevertheless, we acknowledge that the inward illumination of the Spirit of God is necessary for a saving understanding of what is revealed in the Word.10 We recognize that some circumstances concerning the worship of God and government of the church are common to human actions and organizations and are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian wisdom, following the general rules of the Word, which must always be observed.11

9 Timothy 3:15–17; Galatians 1:8,9. 10 John 6:45; 1 Corinthians 2:9–12. 11 1 Corinthians 11:13, 14; 1 Corinthians 14:26, 40.

7. Some things in Scripture are clearer than others, and some people understand the teachings more clearly than others.12 However, the things that must be known, believed, and obeyed for salvation are so clearly set forth and explained in one part of Scripture or another that both the educated and uneducated may achieve a sufficient understanding of them by properly using ordinary measures.13

12 2 Peter 3:16. 13 Psalm 19:7; Psalm 119:130.

8. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, the native language of the ancient people of God.14 The New Testament was written in Greek, which at the time it was written was most widely known to the nations. These Testaments were inspired directly by God and by his unique care and providence were kept pure down through the ages. They are therefore true and authoritative a, so that in all religious controversies the church must make their ultimate appeal to them.15 All God’s people have a right to and a claim on the Scriptures and are commanded in the fear of God to read16 and search them.17 Not all of God’s people know these original languages, so the Scriptures are to be translated into the common language of every nation to which they come.18 In this way the Word of God may dwell richly in all, so that they may worship him in an acceptable manner and through patience and the comfort of the Scriptures may have hope.19

a authentical
14 Romans 3:2. 15 Isaiah 8:20. 16 Acts 15:15. 17 John 5:39. 181 Corinthians 14:6, 9, 11, 12, 24, 28. 19 Colossians 3:16.

9. The infallible rule for interpreting Scripture is the Scripture itself. Therefore, when there is a question about the true and full meaning c of any part of Scripture (and each passage has only one meaning, not many), it must be understood in light of other passages that speak more clearly.20

c sense
20 2 Peter 1:20, 21; Acts 15:15, 16.

10. The supreme judge for deciding all religious controversies and for evaluating all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, human teachings, and individual interpretations d, and in whose judgment we are to rest, is nothing but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit. In this Scripture our faith finds its final word.21

d private spirits
21 Matthew 22:29, 31, 32; Ephesians 2:20; Acts 28:23.

I have presented this so that you may know what forms my worldview and what is the foundation from which my presuppositions are formed.

In my next post I will briefly re-present my proposition so that you can present your rebuttal to the specific texts and invalidate my syllogisms if you wish.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi Rick, Please save yourself the trouble. I don't know your Bible as well as you do, nor do I take it to be authoritative. I rely on the Qur'an which, clearly shows Jesus peace be upon him was the Messiah and in no way divine.
Peace
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
This post is intended to address a subject which has been argued a number of times. I have read some and briefly engaged some of those who reject the deity of Christ because they say that the Bible does not state the words “Jesus is God”. I believe this argument is fallacious, violating the word-concept fallacy. Also it demonstrates a presupposed bias when so many Scriptures identify Christ as divine, attributing to Him many of the divine names given to God. I do not intend to deal with the many New Testament texts ascribing Old Testament references of Jehovah to Jesus Christ. Nor the many references equating Him as Lord in the N.T. with Kurios (Lord) in the Septuagint. I will only use the Apostle John in this post in whose writings reveal the Deity of Christ.

Revelation 19:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

This section in Revelation is dealing with the coming of Christ. The Apostle John assigns a descriptive name to Jesus “The Word of God” (Gr. ho logos ho theos). This identifying Christ as “Logos”, the “Word”, is also used by John in the Prologue to his Gospel: John 1:1-18

John 1:1-18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Deity of Jesus Christ

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The Witness John

6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Made Flesh

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Note verse 1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. The verb “was” (Gr: en, imperfect of eimi). The continuous action in the past of the imperfect tense of the verb indicates to us that whenever the “beginning” was, the Word was already in existence. “and the Word was with God…the Logos has been in communion and communication with God for eternity as well. The verb is the same as the first clause, and the preposition pros (“with”) pictures for us face-to-face communication. The Greek reads, kai theos en ho logos. We have the same situation in 1.1c.The Greek reads, kai theos en ho logos. Notice that the term Logos has the article ho while the term theos does not. This tells us that the subject of the clause is the Logos. Hence, we could not translate the phrase “and God was the Word” for that would make the wrong term the subject of the clause. Hence, the term “God” is the predicate nominative, the nature of the Logos is the nature of God, just as the nature of God in 1 John 4:8 was that of love. Now, John does emphasize the term “God” by placing it first in the clause – this is not just a “divine nature” as in something like the angels have – rather, it is truly the nature of Deity that is in view here (hence my translation as “Deity”). Dr. Kenneth Wuest, long time professor of Greek at Moody Bible Institute rendered the phrase, “And the Word was as to His essence absolute Deity.”

What he wishes to emphasize here is the personal existence of the Logos in some sense of distinction from “God” (i.e., the Father). The Logos is not the Father nor vice-versa – there are two persons under discussion here.

John 1:1 tells us some extremely important things. First, we see that the Logos is eternal, uncreated. Secondly, we see that there are two Divine Persons in view in John’s mind – the Father and the Logos. Thirdly, there is eternal communication and relationship between the Father and the Logos. Finally, we see that the Logos shares the nature of God.

John goes on to gives to Jesus another descriptive name: “The Light”, the “True Light”, the “Light of the world”.

Verse 14: “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

The Word did not eternally exist in the form of flesh; rather, at a particular point in time He became flesh. This is the incarnation.

Verse 18: “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NASB

He first asserts that no one has “seen God at any time.” Now, the Old Testament tells us that men have indeed seen God in the past – Isaiah saw God on His throne in Isaiah 6; Abraham walked with Yahweh in Genesis 18. So what does John mean? He defines for us that the one he is speaking of here is the Father – that is, no one has seen the Father at any time. OK, then who was it that was seen by Isaiah or by Abraham?

John tells us – the unique God. Here the phrase is monogenes theos. There is a textual variant here. Many manuscripts have monogenes huios (unique Son) – and the KJV follows this tradition. But the strongest reading is “unique God.” How are we to understand this?

The term “monogenes” is used only of Jesus in the Gospel of John. Jesus is here described as the “unique God” – John is not asserting a separate deity from the Father. Rather, this ‘unique God” is the one who is eternally in fellowship with the Father. Even when discussing the “separateness” of the Father and the Son as persons, John is quick to emphasize the unity of the divine Persons in their eternal fellowship together. Here John teaches, again, the eternal and central fact of the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The unique God makes the Father known – He “explains’ Him. What we know of the Father we know because of the revelation of the Son. We know what the Father is like because we know what Jesus Is like. Here the Son’s function as the revelator of the Father is clearly set forth, and this is directly in line with the usage of the term Logos in the Prologue. Other New Testament writers use the same theme – for Paul Jesus is the “image of the invisible God” and for the writer of Hebrews Jesus is ‘the express image of His (the Father’s) person…” Both writers (or maybe just one writer if Paul indeed wrote Hebrews) are emphasizing the role of Jesus as the revealer of the Father. In the same way, this answers the above question regarding who it was, in John’s opinion, that was seen of Abraham and Isaiah. We have already had occasion to note that John will directly assert that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus in the person of Yahweh (12:39ff), and could it be that this is the explanation for Jesus’ statement in John 8:56? Did Abraham “see the day of Jesus” when he walked with Him by the oaks of Mamre (Gen. 18:1)?

The conclusion is obvious throughout these few verses:

If Jesus is The Word. Rev.19:13

And if that same Word is God. Jn.1:1-18

Then Jesus is God.

Special thanks to James R White[/QUOTe

You are perhaps missing the point? you must go outside scripture to demonstrate that Jesus is anything at all to be concerned about, much less that he is god.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
The bible is nothing but a bunch of stolen Pagan stories replaced with Jewish characters to remove sprituality from the people and keep it on the hands of the few, it is full of contradictions.

For proof read through

Exposing the Old Testament

Exposing the New Testament

It certainly comes with no surprise that one who serves and worships Satan would object to the Biblical teachings regarding the person and work of Jesus Christ. For part of that work is the destroying of the works of Satan, finally casting him into the Lake of Fire forever.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The JW,s do not teach that only they have love--every mortal has love--
This is what you wrote: "It was God who saw that no flesh could live by the Law so he sent his son with a new covenant= LOVE.".

Clearly, the implication of that is that any previous covenant did not include "LOVE", which is totally absurd.

Stop twisting what I say.
It is not I who "twisted" it as it is you who twisted your post about the part of what you wrote about the "new covenant", which is what I responded to, into a comment on the JW's, the latter of which I was not responding to.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Hi Rick, Please save yourself the trouble. I don't know your Bible as well as you do, nor do I take it to be authoritative. I rely on the Qur'an which, clearly shows Jesus peace be upon him was the Messiah and in no way divine.
Peace

I understand and fully appreciate your decision to withdraw from this debate. But if I may I would like to address two points.

1. You, out of the vast majority of those who deny the Deity of Christ, have realized the true nature of the premise of which I initiated this debate i.e. The Bible declares that Jesus is God. Virtually all others simply diverted to express their unbelief regarding Christ's divine nature all the while avoiding direct interaction with the evidence that I introduced supporting my propositions. I would not engage in a debate were you to start with the premise: The Qur'an Declares that Allah is God. Why not? Because, obviously the Qur'an does declare Allah is God. That's undeniable. So it would be foolish for me to get involved in such a debate as you, yourself, realize.

2. Regarding Jesus being the Messiah: With the close of the New Testament canon the Christian Church has received the full revelation of God in written form which is the end of the progressive unveiling of God's truth. Part of that truth is the full disclosure of the Person of the Messiah. In the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia under MESSIAH subheading:

4. New Elements Added:
(1) Future manifestation.

New features were now added to the Messiah in accordance with Jesus' own teaching. He had ascended to His Father and become the heavenly king. But all things were not yet put under Him. It was therefore seen that the full manifestation of His Messiahship was reserved for the future, that He would return in glory to fulfill His Messianic office and complete His Messianic reign.

(2) Divine Personality.

Higher views of His personality were now entertained. He is declared to be the Son of God, not in any official, but in a unique sense, as coequal with the Father (John 1:1; Romans 1:4,7; 1 Corinthians 1:3, etc.). His pre-existence is affirmed (John 1:1; 2 Corinthians 8:9); and when He comes again in his Messianic glory, He will exercise the Divine function of Universal Judge (Acts 10:42; 17:30, etc.).
Messiah - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

So, you see, the Christian view of the Messiah comes to a much fuller and higher state than the ancient Jewish understanding.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Please stop getting off "point", which is, you claim satan is some powerful being. And I claim he's not, that's the point here, not if Jesus is God or not!


Read the Job account--Satan killed all of Jobs children by controlling the weather. And other things--That is godlike power. He has had 99% mislead for the majority of mankinds history--that is Power. 98% do not even know it is him they serve. Sin= worship to satan.
Fact- satans #1 tool in mortal history= From generation to generation, from parent to child--false god worship, pagan practices off the table of demons( 1Cor 10:21) handed down--all through mortal history. Things that happened centuries ago so that few have a clue.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
It does NOT work the same today. Show me one scripture that says one must be in an organization to attain salvation, just one!


Jesus speaks to 7 congregations in revelation--proving he is with--one religion on this earth. He leads it. Ephesians 5:23-1Cor 1:10)-- Truth is only revealed through the real teachers in Jesus' one religion. One cannot accomplish this-John 4:22-24- unless they know truth.
One religion= OT
One religion- NT.
No division.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
The Bible disagrees with you!

Luke 2:11 (ESV Strong's) 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.


He still had to complete the task of living a sinless existence or he would not have been our savior.
Satan tempted him in the wilderness--because there was a chance to make Jesus do a sin. At his weakest point--40 days fasting. But Jesus replied--It is YHVH(Jehovah) your God whom you must serve.
Upon his return to heaven. Jesus handed the ransom sacrifice over to his God and Father, and sat at his right hand.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
"I think" that, because that's what your 'slave' teaches. You don't think it's an organization?


*** w15 2/15 p. 7 par. 10 Imitate Jesus’ Humility and Tenderness ***
It takes lowliness of mind to “be obedient to those who are taking the lead” in the congregation and to accept and follow the direction we receive from Jehovah’s organization

*** w15 2/15 p. 16 Maintain Your Zeal for the Ministry ***
What convinced him that this is Jehovah’s organization?

*** w15 2/15 p. 17 Maintain Your Zeal for the Ministry ***
Jehovah’s organization regularly offers suggestions designed to help us improve our ministry.

*** w15 3/15 p. 8 par. 4 “This Is the Way You Approved” ***
In recent years, the spiritual instruction provided by Jehovah’s organization.

*** w15 3/15 p. 9 par. 8 “This Is the Way You Approved” ***
The apostle Paul discussed a number of them. For example, Abraham’s relationship with Hagar and Sarah provided a prophetic picture of Jehovah’s relationship with the nation of Israel and the heavenly part of God’s organization.

*** w15 4/15 p. 13 par. 17 How Elders Train Others to Become Qualified ***
The need for change is determined, not by your desire for change, but by the needs of the congregation and the direction we receive from Jehovah’s organization.


Shall I go on? Is it not an organization?


Yes Gods religion is organized-- Unity of thought--no division-1Cor 1:10)-- Its the only way one can become-ONE- with YHVH(Jehovah) and his son. The living to do the Fathers will now-24/7,365--These will be let into Gods kingdom-Matt 7:21)-- They have learned and applied--EVERY UTTERANCE FROM GOD.
 
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