the bible canon

[metis]

Shalom Clear!
There are varying opinions on qumran and the essenes for sure. There are traditions that the Nazarenes were essenes. This would link up Jesus and John with the 2 communities, nazarenes could marry and drink, essenes could not...

Actually, not only is there no indication of that, their basic approach differed widely. Jesus engaged with the masses in eretz Israel whereas the Essenes avoided them for fear of ritual contamination. None of the non-Biblical books the Essense used were quoted in the canon that was eventually selected. Etc.

IOW, there were enough serious theological differences that would make any association highly unlikely.

 

[metis]

BTW, for what it's worth, I have visited the Qumran site twice (1991 & 1999), saw the outside of the cave whereas the first batch of books were found (they won't let you go inside), and had a chance to see the actual Isaiah scroll they used. Sorta awe-inspiring, let me tell ya.

 

[jaybird]

Actually, not only is there no indication of that, their basic approach differed widely. Jesus engaged with the masses in eretz Israel whereas the Essenes avoided them for fear of ritual contamination. None of the non-Biblical books the Essense used were quoted in the canon that was eventually selected. Etc.

IOW, there were enough serious theological differences that would make any association highly unlikely.

No indication of a connection between Jesus and John and the Essenes?

Jesus taught chastity vowes, essenes taught chastity vowes
Jesus taught against oaths, essenes taught against oaths

both of these were new teachings not found in the Hebrew bible, outside of Jesus ministry the only other people teaching this (among Jews) were the essenes.

both refered to Satan (assuming it is Satan) as “the evil one”.

When John sent msg to Jesus from Jail “are you the one or should we expect another, Jesus replied with a list of credentials:

the blind see
the lame walk
lepers are cleansed
the deaf hear
the dead are raised
the poor hear the good news

quoting Isaiah but Isiah only mentions:

the deaf
the blind
the poor
there is no mention of lepers and dead

but the dead sea scrolls mention the missing credentials
the blind
the lame
lepers
the deaf
the dead
the poor

this is not from their Isiah scroll but from a community scroll, their own theology writing.

Thats an awful lot of coincidences to just blow off and say there is no connection.

 

[jaybird]

None of the non-Biblical books the Essense used were quoted in the canon that was eventually selected. Etc.

Jesus and Jude use teaching from the non canon books that are only found in those books and no where else.

 

[metis]

No indication of a connection between Jesus and John and the Essenes?

Jesus taught chastity vowes, essenes taught chastity vowes
Jesus taught against oaths, essenes taught against oaths

both of these were new teachings not found in the Hebrew bible, outside of Jesus ministry the only other people teaching this (among Jews) were the essenes.

both refered to Satan (assuming it is Satan) as “the evil one”.

When John sent msg to Jesus from Jail “are you the one or should we expect another, Jesus replied with a list of credentials:

the blind see
the lame walk
lepers are cleansed
the deaf hear
the dead are raised
the poor hear the good news

quoting Isaiah but Isiah only mentions:

the deaf
the blind
the poor
there is no mention of lepers and dead

but the dead sea scrolls mention the missing credentials
the blind
the lame
lepers
the deaf
the dead
the poor

this is not from their Isiah scroll but from a community scroll, their own theology writing.

Thats an awful lot of coincidences to just blow off and say there is no connection.

Within Judaism, there's always going to be some "coincidences" since we we are pretty much on the same page with many items since we all use Torah-- it's the areas whereas we differ that accounts for the separations and often the arguing. If you google "Essenes" and go point by point, you'll see quite a few of these differences.

Now, you mention John, so was John an Essene? Possibly, but he also could be a nazir, namely one who dedicates a period of time to meditating on God through fasting, abstaining from cutting their hair, avoiding alcohol, wearing raggedy clothing, etc. These normally were temporary vows until they ran across Ms. Right and got married.

 

[metis]

Jesus and Jude use teaching from the non canon books that are only found in those books and no where else.

Prior to the selection of the canon 300 years later, there was also an "oral law", much of which Jesus seems to have opposed, plus an on-going oral tradition. Even though Jesus appears to have problems with the "building the wall around the Torah" approach, other parts of oral law/tradition show up in various non-canonical texts.

For example, the concept of "heaven" doesn't show up in the Tanakh but is found in other Jewish literature dating back to the last couple of hundred years before Jesus. Undoubtedly, not only would Jesus be familiar with at least some of the concepts found within that belief, so would the Essenes.

Again, let me recommend you google "Essenes" and go through point by point by point.

 

[jaybird]

Within Judaism, there's always going to be some "coincidences" since we we are pretty much on the same page with many items since we all use Torah-- it's the areas whereas we differ that accounts for the separations and often the arguing. If you google "Essenes" and go point by point, you'll see quite a few of these differences.

Now, you mention John, so was John an Essene? Possibly, but he also could be a nazir, namely one who dedicates a period of time to meditating on God through fasting, abstaining from cutting their hair, avoiding alcohol, wearing raggedy clothing, etc. These normally were temporary vows until they ran across Ms. Right and got married.

i agree there are always coincidences, but some of these can be found no where else but between the two which gives a stong suggestion the 2 are connected.
im not making an argument that Jesus was an essene giving the essene gospel to the world. im saying there were essene elements in His message.

 

[metis]

i agree there are always coincidences, but some of these can be found no where else but between the two which gives a stong suggestion the 2 are connected.
im not making an argument that Jesus was an essene giving the essene gospel to the world. im saying there were essene elements in His message.

OK, I better see where you're going now, so the above I can agree with even though I would not use the terminology "Essene elements" because the sources seem to have preceded both.

The Essenes were prolific writers, so there's not much doubt that some of their texts were entirely of their own making even though they did use other sources in them matched with their own thoughts.

BTW, when I was there in 1999, we had a theologian who was well versed in ancient Judaism who was just finishing up his doctorate of theology, so some of what I'm writing above comes from him.

 

[jaybird]

OK, I better see where you're going now, so the above I can agree with even though I would not use the terminology "Essene elements" because the sources seem to have preceded both.

The Essenes were prolific writers, so there's not much doubt that some of their texts were entirely of their own making even though they did use other sources in them matched with their own thoughts.

BTW, when I was there in 1999, we had a theologian who was well versed in ancient Judaism who was just finishing up his doctorate of theology, so some of what I'm writing above comes from him.

"essene elements" didnt mean to imply they were the source, the source was ancient and was what IMO they were both teaching. it may have seemed new and different to us and people of the day but but it only appeared that way because so many have lost their way.
many think Jesus was starting a new religion, IMO He was just bringing them back to "the way" .

 

[Clear]

Jaybird said : “Jesus and Jude use teaching from the non canon books that are only found in those books and no where else.”

Hi Jaybird ;

The New Testament as literature, often referred earlier sources
I agree with you on the specific point that the New Testament obviously used the enochian literature since so many references are made to enochian literature in the various versions of New Testament. Your historical background is a good advantage to you in this area over other posters on this specific point. In fact, there were more copies of Enoch found in the Dead Sea Library than all other books outside of the Pentateuch and psalms. It was the ONLY other book found in double digit numbers. Obviously it was quite popular and it's influence widespread.

"Essenic Literature"? vs "Dead Sea Scrolls"
I can’t tell if Metis is conflating the "essenes" with the "Qumran" Library. We have some descriptions about essenes, but I’ve never seen any literature we could confirm was written by the Essenes. His comments on “essenes” and their “literature” seems to indicate he is conflating the two things.

I also think you are correct that there are many obvious parallels between the Dead Sea Scroll literature and concepts and the New Testament Literature and concepts. While some have theorized that the “great multitude of the priests” who “were obedient to the faith” mentioned in Acts vi:7 were the ones referred to in the Qumranic Literature, I don’t have enough background in this specific area to have an opinion on this point.

Multiple sources made up and underlie the biblical literature
Even by Joshua’s time we have multiple records and indications that biblical stories were edited from larger and separate literature. Joshua 10:13 refers to “the authentic” or “correct” record from which the story in the biblical text originated : “…Is it [the bible story] not written in the authentic book?...” (…ουχι τουτο γεγραμμενον επι βιβλιου του ευθους (ישר )…” Joshua 10:13) (i.e. the “right” or “correct” book.

Josephus, referring to this same story also tells us that the story “…is expressed in the books laid up in the Temple…”). Historically, other biblical stories also were derived from these “authentic” or “correct” records as well. (e.g. the story of Moses obtaining water from the rock), thus this historian tells us “Now that scripture which is laid up in the temple informs us, how God foretold to Moses, that water should, in this manner be derived out of the rock” (Antiquities book 3, chapt 1, vs 7). The Talmud also confirms that there were multiple different books from which the Torah of Josiah’s day was created.

Obviously, there were multiple records, some considered more correct than others, which contributed to the biblical literature.

Cudos to you for knowing some unusual history regarding literature. I apologize that my interest and expertise doesn’t really lie in the specific discussion you are now involved in.


Clear
δρφιφυτωω

 

[jaybird]

BTW, for what it's worth, I have visited the Qumran site twice (1991 & 1999), saw the outside of the cave whereas the first batch of books were found (they won't let you go inside), and had a chance to see the actual Isaiah scroll they used. Sorta awe-inspiring, let me tell ya.

must have been quite an experience. i would love to go see it, walk where they walk, see the Jordan river.

 

[jaybird]

Jaybird said : “Jesus and Jude use teaching from the non canon books that are only found in those books and no where else.”

Hi Jaybird ;

The New Testament as literature, often referred earlier sources
I agree with you on the specific point that the New Testament obviously used the enochian literature since so many references are made to enochian literature. Your historical background is a good advantage to you in this area over other posters on this specific point. In fact, there were more copies of Enoch found in the Dead Sea Library than all other books outside of the Pentateuch and psalms. It was the ONLY other book found in double digit numbers. Obviously it was quite popular and it's influence widespread.

"Essenic Literature"? vs "Dead Sea Scrolls"
I can’t tell if Metis is conflating the "essenes" with the "Qumran" Library. We have some descriptions about essenes, but I’ve never seen any literature we could confirm was written by the Essenes. His comments on “essenes” and their “literature” seems to indicate he is conflating the two things.

I also think you are correct that there are many obvious parallels between the Dead Sea Scroll literature and concepts and the New Testament Literature and concepts. While some have theorized that the “great multitude of the priests” who “were obedient to the faith” mentioned in Acts vi:7 were the ones referred to in the Qumranic Literature, I don’t have enough background in this specific area to have an opinion on this point.

Multiple sources made up and underlie the biblical literature
Even by Joshua’s time we have multiple records and indications that biblical stories were edited from larger and separate literature. Joshua 10:13 refers to “the authentic” or “correct” record from which the story in the biblical text originated : “…Is it [the bible story] not written in the authentic book?...” (…ουχι τουτο γεγραμμενον επι βιβλιου του ευθους (ישר )…” Joshua 10:13) (i.e. the “right” or “correct” book.

Josephus, referring to this same story also tells us that the story “…is expressed in the books laid up in the Temple…”). Historically, other biblical stories also were derived from these “authentic” or “correct” records as well. (e.g. the story of Moses obtaining water from the rock), thus this historian tells us “Now that scripture which is laid up in the temple informs us, how God foretold to Moses, that water should, in this manner be derived out of the rock” (Antiquities book 3, chapt 1, vs 7). The Talmud also tells confirms that there were multiple different books from which the Torah of Josiah’s day was created.

Obviously, there were multiple records, some considered more correct than others, which contributed to the biblical literature.

Cudos to you for knowing some unusual history regarding literature. I apologize that my interest and expertise doesn’t really lie in the specific discussion you are now involved in.


Clear
δρφιφυτωω

thank you Clear. but i am far from an expert on these things, im just a blue collar farm boy thats spiritual and like to read.

Metis is correct that there are some differences. usually the first thing people go to when arguing one has nothing to do with the other is that Jesus message was for everyone, the Essenes kept to themselves.
i believe this is true but according to the essenes they believed their traditions went all the way back to Enoch. the privacy IMO had to do with the great lengths they went to to preserve the teachings.
consider that with Christianity, after Jesus ascension, after the 12 died, the faith started having splits until what we have today all these denominations going in all these directions, lots of confusion, that didnt happen with the essenes.

 

[Clear]

Jaybird :

I very much agree with your idea that one of the ideas behind separating one's self or one's religious movement from society was to try to remain "pure" and keep the current theology uncontaminated by other concepts present in the society surrounding the religious movement. What I meant regarding essenes is that we have a lot of descriptions ABOUT them by others who report on them, what they were like, etc. I am unaware of any literature that we can attribute to essenic origins alone. While the group we often call "the essenes" may have been aware of, or even read dead sea scroll documents, that library did not originate with them.

See you Jaybird.

Clear

 

[metis]

"essene elements" didnt mean to imply they were the source, the source was ancient and was what IMO they were both teaching. it may have seemed new and different to us and people of the day but but it only appeared that way because so many have lost their way.
many think Jesus was starting a new religion, IMO He was just bringing them back to "the way" .

What I believe he was doing was to try and simplify the Law to its bare elements, namely to have compassion and justice/fairness for all of God's creation. And he was certainly not the first to come up with this as the school of Hillel went in a very similar direction but not quite as far as Jesus did.

 

[metis]

must have been quite an experience. i would love to go see it, walk where they walk, see the Jordan river.

If you get the chance, please do go. It's amazing, not only in regards to religion, but so much amazing history is to be found there. Here in the States, we think something a few hundred years old is amazing, but imagine what it's like to see things that are thousands of years old.

My wife and I went on a "dig" not too far from Jerusalem in an old cistern that the Zealots hid in but the Romans discovered and filled with sand. My wife dug and come up with a piece of pottery about the size of your hand that dates back to about two decades before Jesus' time. We couldn't keep it of course.