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The Authority of the Church

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Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Scott...

I think Solly is saying that the Spirit has that authority alone. It does not belong to any orginization but God's. In such a case, the origin of our thinking does play a signifigant role in our conclusions.

Scripturally, I don't think Jesus ever "gave" the keys of the kingdom to Peter. That Peter was indeed fallible is evidenced by that upshoot, Saul rebuking him to his face over being a bigot. Only the Spirit can instruct us and reveal God to us. That is not for a mere man to do, though the Spirit usually works through men to this very end. Imperfect men at that.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
I think the use of "bad fruit" is also inflammatory in such a discussion. Different fruit might be more PC. :D

Apple Trees produce apples.

Pear Trees produce pears.

The type and strain of fruit one produces is the outcome of your beliefs.

There are several types of apple trees. The Macintosh does not call the Red Delicious "bad" without raising it's petals somewhat. While it is good to note that there are different apple trees out there, determining which is the "best apple" among the trees is subjective at best.

Ultimately it is the individual Tree's responsibility to be sure that it's fruits are pleasing to the Father.
 
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Scott1

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
I think Solly is saying that the Spirit has that authority alone. It does not belong to any orginization but God's. In such a case, the origin of our thinking does play a signifigant role in our conclusions.
Oy vey.... I can't explain this in more simple terms.....
Your thinking about the Spirit has its origin from THE BIBLE.
Your opinion on authority comes from THE BIBLE.
Your opinion on Peter comes from THE BIBLE.

Maybe it's me, but it seems so ridiculous to tout the Bible as your authority.... in a thread about the the authority to determine the formation of THE BIBLE.:confused:
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
When I was on this religious forum debating about GOD, the members I responded to kept on asking me on what authority did I have to speak about GOD in this manner. I ALL(ways) found this confusing because I felt that I we all had the same resources in which to form our ideas (life experiences, personal perspectives). For awhile I thought I had to go somewhere or someone to acquire this "authority", I am still a little confused on this issue.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Hiya carderro,

Many people are confused about this issue! Everyone has a different opinion about the "resources" that can be used to come to know God. I believe that we come to know God in other ways than just the Bible.... a view not supported by most non-Catholics.... so I can understand how some look at a non-believer talking about faith like a non-Astronaut talking about walking on the moon! :D
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Maybe it's me, but it seems so ridiculous to tout the Bible as your authority.... in a thread about the the authority to determine the formation of THE BIBLE
I find no other document that has been so well written to base my beliefs on. I feel basing your Christianity on any other writings is a fool's errand.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
I find no other document that has been so well written to base my beliefs on. I feel basing your Christianity on any other writings is a fool's errand.
So your faith is based on the quality of the writing.... and you don't really care how it came to be?
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
My faith is based on an empty tomb and the Spirit's ability to work wonders in anyone with anything. I have no need to look further than the Bible until such time that I completely internalise it. Once I have mastered the lessons within it, I will move on to other writings. I don't expect to do that in this life time.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Netdoc,

Trusting the Bible is not enough to give you everything you need. It was never intended to serve that purpose.

1). You trust an oral tradition
2). You trust the authors to have written it down correctly
3). You trust the Catholic Church in choosing its content, complete with prayer to Mary and the saints, priests, sacramentalism, ecclesiastical authority, and the like.
4). You trust the Catholic Church to have copied it and handed it down.

Simply put, you must trust the Catholic Church in all these matters. If you don't, then you undermine your own faith, because an empty tomb after 2000 years doesn't mean much.

If step 1 is unreliable, then you can't trust the Gospels in the least. If step 2 is unreliable, you can't trust the Gospels. If the doctrines are spritually wrong, then you cannot trust their choices when it comes to the source of your beliefs. Further, if it had corrupted its beliefs, then it could not be trusted to have handed the Scripture down.

However, the Bible speaks directly on this issue.

Paul calls the Church the "pillar and ground of truth" in I Tim. 3.15. The written Word of God is never called something like the "pillar and ground of truth."

The entire book of II Peter is written against ideas that the Scripture is the sole authority. II Pet. 1.21 states blatantly that "No Scripture is of any private interpretation," and Peter closes his letter by explaining how people were twisting Paul's writings to their own destruction (II Pet. 3.16). So, we have individuals teaching what their own interpretation of Scripture, sneaking into houses, and Peter says the practice will destroy them. This isn't a small rebuke.

So, any usage of the Bible is dependant on the Church's authority in choosing it, the validity of her beliefs, and the trustworthiness of her copying. On the other hand, any sentiment that all you need is in the Scripture, or that the Spirit will lead you properly with just a Bible isn't unbiblical, as in something not found in the Bible. It is blatantly contrabiblical. It replaces the biblical doctrine on how we are to learn about God and approach the Scripture with men's philosophies and opinions.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
1) No
2) Nope
3) Definitely NOT
4) See #3

God worked through Herod and Pilate... what makes you think he can't work through ANY human institution, including the Catholic church?

II Peter 1:20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Scripture comes from God via his Spirit.

Trusting the Bible is not enough to give you everything you need.
II Timothy 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Subtlely missing from this passage is any reference to any church in general and to the catholic church in particular. In fact, I just don't find "Catholic" anywhere in the scriptures! I wonder why that is? :D
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
II Pet. 1.21 states blatantly that "No Scripture is of any private interpretation,"
Actually it says no prophecy of the scripture is of private interpretation.

Peter closes his letter by explaining how people were twisting Paul's writings to their own destruction (II Pet. 3.16). So, we have individuals teaching what their own interpretation of Scripture, sneaking into houses, and Peter says the practice will destroy them. This isn't a small rebuke.
The passage refers to unlearned and unstable people interpretting the scripture, this is not against private reading but to put it bluntly, stupid and crazy people interpretting the Bible.

because an empty tomb after 2000 years doesn't mean much
That empty tomb means quite abit, at least to me.
 

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
why not past tesnse?biblically speaking, there are many instances of good things going bad.if the early church(though not the earliest[ad]) was divinely guided to make a decision, why would they of had to continue being divinely guided?that's like saying a prophet never uttered one false word, i.e.;absurd.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
God worked through Herod and Pilate indeed. Here's what God didn't do. He didn't use them to preserve His Scripture. It is a case of apples and oranges, and it won't change the fact that the Bible is a Catholic book. Nor does it change the fact, that the Catholics who chose it actively believed it supported their doctrines.

Your quote from II Timothy is good, but it fails on a couple of points. First, while it may not mention "church," neither does it mention "only." Why should I assume that Scripture is the only thing that serves that purpose? That passage does not give any reason to think that.

How about if a mother said something like this: "Spinach is given to us by God, it is good for nutrition, discipline, and making you strong in life." Spinach is good for discipline; I can't stand the stuff. If a parent actually fed her child only spinach, she needs to be arrested. It would kill the child.

Now, the second it falls short on, is v14. Paul tells them to "continue in what they have learned and have become convinced of," putting Timothy's beliefs before he mentions Scripture. Why? "Because you know those from whom you learned it." Now, since Paul has established a community...he moves on to Scripture, and all the things it is good for.

The third thing you forget, is that the Scripture Paul is referring to here must be the Old Testament, maybe with some pseudapigraphic books. It doesn't include the New Testament. So, if you assume this teaches that Scripture alone is sufficient, then throw out your New Testament to be consistent.

All together, then, I do not see anything in II Timothy 3.15-17 that teaches Sola Scriptura. In fact, with those three points, I can use the passage to teach against it. Of course, since you believe that the Catholic Church chose and preserved the Bible accurately, despite believing it contradicts it, and since you believe that II Timothy plainly teaches this, I have one request. Will you show me one person in the first thousand years of Christianity who interpreted it as "Sola Scriptura?" If it clearly teaches that, then somebody will have interpreted it that way.

You are right in II Peter 1.20-21...partially. Peter opens for our topic in 1.16. He explains the importance of Scripture, and its inspiration. Naturally this culminates in 1.20-21. Next he proceeds to false teachers and false doctrines. In vv 2.3 we read that they deceive the people, "By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words: for a long time their judgement has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber."

Now, with this, we can look back at v. 21. We both know that Greek isn't English and operates differently. Now, it says: "touto proton ginoskontes oti pasa prophitia graphis idias epilyseos ou ginetai." "Ginetai" is a linking verb that can also denote "appear," "came to be," "to be born." Now, "of one's own interpretation" and "from the prophet's own interpretation" are both translations of the genitive. The genitive can be used as a form of origin like the "from" or it can be used as a source of instrumentality like "of." This means that both translations are valid. It is quite possible that both senses were intended.

If we are to choose one, then we must choose "of," though. The purpose of II Peter wasn't to exalt Scripture. The passage on Scripture was an affirmation of its importance, as a preface to the blasphemy of false teachers twisting it. The verse in question is placed in the transition from affirming Scripture to rebuking false teachers. As "of" it fits that transition nicely. As "from," the transition is rather sudden.

Another thing that speaks against a sole use of "from" is that "prophitis" never appears, but only "prophiteia." Thus, the addition of "prophet's" is a gloss in the translation. I'm not saying that is bad. I will say that it was probably doctrinally motivated, because it isn't necessary.

Now, Peter closes with the rebuke on those who twist Scripture according to their own doctrines (3.16). This fits nicely with "of" also. They also fit the situation in the first and second centuries, as one sect after another broke off and started teaching rather ridiculous things.

So, if you don't feel that this rebukes Sola Scriptura, then please offer a counter-interpretation as I have done. As it stands, I stand by my statement that taking the Bible as sufficient in itself for faith is contrascriptural, and that there is no supporting evidence for it in Scripture.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
No*s--Excellent posts!

NetDoc said:
Are you telling me that there is none or that it is filled?
Clearly, he is not telling you anything--merely asking. Do answer the question.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
I never said the empty tomb was meaningless. I simply said that it would be without meaning if the Church had not preserved it. It is the linchpin of Christianity.

I don't see anything in what you said that about II Peter that actually contradicts what I've said. You don't have an "any," but I did. It doesn't change the of the statement. I was quoting from memory.

"Unlearned and unstable men" doesn't change anything either. It doesn't refer to academic learning; it can't. Early Christianity was a movement almost exclusively in the lower class. Peter himself wasn't educated. It refers to the learning taught by the Apostles, their tradition of teaching. These men, who are outside of it, are "unlearned" and "unstable." They are unlearned for not being in the Apostle's traditions. They are "unstable," because they formed new churches and groups constantly (kind of like Protestants there).

So, I only see your post making my statement more specific.
 
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