Texas Bill Would Protect College Professors Who Question Evolution

[McBell]

Universities are the key to scientific research. They have the best equipment and put the most money(Usually federal grants) other than corporations. However being mentioned as a creationist or ID scientist and all that is shut off to you.

Name a scientist who was "cut off" simply because they claimed to be a creationist.

The best you can do is work for a religious organization with far less grants and no equipment.

But with loads more money than two or three universities combined.
Interesting how with all that money they are unable to buy the equipment.
I wonder if that is because they have no one who knows how to use any of it?

No Creationist organizations spend all their money trying to get laws passed to protect them from truth.
Sad, especially given they claim to have the higher moral ground.

 

[McBell]

If a scientist can form a valid hypotheses he should be incouraged to follow it.

So why are creationists spending all their money in courts instead of actually doing science to form this valid hypothesis?

 

[waitasec]

Universities are the key to scientific research. They have the best equipment and put the most money(Usually federal grants) other than corporations. However being mentioned as a creationist or ID scientist and all that is shut off to you. The best you can do is work for a religious organization with far less grants and no equipment.

sounds like the "ID theory" doesn't meet the criteria for being labeled as a "theory"...why then teach it in schools if it hasn't been able to get to the right channels to test this creation hypothesis? how would one actually go about testing it?

 

[bobhikes]

So why are creationists spending all their money in courts instead of actually doing science to form this valid hypothesis?

Creationists can do what they want with there money. I am debating a thread that is protecting a scientists right to form a theory and not be fired because someone thinks it is ID or creationism or just against evolution.

I said previously if they falsified data they should be fired and If they can not form a hypotheses then it should not be entertained.

 

[waitasec]

So why are creationists spending all their money in courts instead of actually doing science to form this valid hypothesis?

because loop holes are their forte...?

 

[Alceste]

actual bill readsSec.　51.979.　　PROHIBITION OF DISCRIMINATION BASED ON RESEARCH RELATED TO INTELLIGENT DESIGN. An institution of higher education may not discriminate against or penalize in any manner, especially with regard to employment or academic support, a faculty member or student based on the faculty member's or student's conduct of research relating to the theory of intelligent design or other alternate theories of the origination and development of organisms.

Notice it protects anyone who purposes an alternate theory not just the ID people. It also only protects their right to research the alternate theory.

So are you opposed to researching alternate theorys are you afraid of alternate theorys, or do you just oppose anything if creationism is mentioned before it.

What normal people are opposed to is teaching fanciful, speculative notions that are not at all scientific in science class.

There are no alternate THEORIES to explain the diversity of life on earth. Do you know what a theory is, in scientific terms? Evolution is the only scientific theory we have.

 

[Alceste]

It can't be supported scientifically if they are not allowed to research it, but then you know that which is why you want to fight so hard to stop legitimate research being available.

You are saying on the one hand it is a theory, and on the other that it has not been researched. IT CAN NOT BE a "scientific theory" if it has not been researched. Theories are the OUTCOME of scientific research, not the prelude to it.

 

[bobhikes]

You are saying on the one hand it is a theory, and on the other that it has not been researched. IT CAN NOT BE a "scientific theory" if it has not been researched. Theories are the OUTCOME of scientific research, not the prelude to it.

You got me improper use of word should be scientific hypotheses better.

 

[Alceste]

Two things

One there is nothing in the bill that allows teaching of ID if the school does not wish it.

Second if there is nothing scientific about ID what is the problem the bill is a useless bill concerning ID they will not be able to propose a testable hypotheses

I'm surprised you don't see the problem. It affords special protection to educators who seek to insert a specific, religious genre of non-scientific misinformation into classes and programs that are advertised as secular science classes.

If creationism were scientific, there would be no problem teaching it in science class. It is because it is not science that protecting teachers who want to advocate it in science class will destroy science education in Texas.

 

[Alceste]

Universities are the key to scientific research. They have the best equipment and put the most money(Usually federal grants) other than corporations. However being mentioned as a creationist or ID scientist and all that is shut off to you. The best you can do is work for a religious organization with far less grants and no equipment.

Ken Ham has millions of dollars a year to put into it if he so chooses. Instead, the Discovery Institute spends its donations on building plague-themed roller-coasters.

 

[Alceste]

You got me improper use of word should be scientific hypotheses better.

Sure, creationism could be considered a hypothesis. A failed hypothesis, since it was the prevailing hypothesis for almost two thousand years, nobody in all that time was able to find any empirical evidence to substantiate it, perform any experiments to affirm it, or make one single prediction with it with which we could verify its accuracy, and the theory of evolution utterly blew it out of the water.

I have no problem with teaching creationism as a failed hypothesis in science class, along with some of the other failed hypotheses that died over 150 years ago, like disease being caused by bad smells ("miasma"), or that organisms can spontaneously generate in a sealed, empty jar, or that there were only 5 planets, or that the earth is flat.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I said previously if they falsified data they should be fired and If they can not form a hypotheses then it should not be entertained.

Creationism is based on falsified data.

 

[KnightOwl]

In order for a hypothesis to rise to the level of a theory, it has to be testable. There has to be a way to show that the hypothesis is false. Show me how ID is falsifiable, then we can talk about researching meant to show it as false or support it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Universities are the key to scientific research. They have the best equipment and put the most money(Usually federal grants) other than corporations. However being mentioned as a creationist or ID scientist and all that is shut off to you. The best you can do is work for a religious organization with far less grants and no equipment.

Under the current situation, creationists/IDers face the same thing that all researchers face: as you point out, universities have limited funding and facilities, so everyone has to make the best case they can to the school and only the best and most promising are picked to get those scarce resources.

Creationism/ID comes out short on this process consistently - and rightly so. What this bill does is try to give creationists a shortcut around the normal (and IMO reasonable) hurdles that everyone else has to deal with.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

You brought up the pope not me. I just wanted to present the facts.

Did you miss the part where it says this thread is about the physical not the "imaginary"

 

[bobhikes]

Under the current situation, creationists/IDers face the same thing that all researchers face: as you point out, universities have limited funding and facilities, so everyone has to make the best case they can to the school and only the best and most promising are picked to get those scarce resources.

Creationism/ID comes out short on this process consistently - and rightly so. What this bill does is try to give creationists a shortcut around the normal (and IMO reasonable) hurdles that everyone else has to deal with.

Here's the great thing about this, The RF only found out about it after it happened, The RF is not going to organize and do anything about it. NO matter what is said here I already won.

You do have a chance though, You can still organize and stop them in Florida, don't ask me to hold my breath though. If I only have to worry about the RF I should win that one easily too.

 

[Revoltingest]

Here's the great thing about this, The RF only found out about it after it happened, The RF is not going to organize and do anything about it. NO matter what is said here I already won.

You do have a chance though, You can still organize and stop them in Florida, don't ask me to hold my breath though. If I only have to worry about the RF I should win that one easily too.

Creationists will likely always be around, & will occasionally wrest some legislative victory for their particular rethinking of the scientific method.
Even if the Supreme Court were packed with fundies & they got their way, they'll still lose because their "theory" just doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny.
- Cannot be falsified.
- Cannot be tested.
- Makes no testable predictions.
- Not useful, ie, no practical applications.
- It flies in the face of overwhelming verification of the TOE, which is the simpler & more applicable explanation.

Claiming that one is winning isn't always so. Please, Bob, don't channel Charlie.....
[youtube]pipTwjwrQYQ[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pipTwjwrQYQ

 

[camanintx]

NO matter what is said here I already won.

Unfortunately, if this bill passes, you, along with the rest of the country, will have lost. You just don't realize it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Unfortunately, if this bill passes, you, along with the rest of the country, will have lost. You just don't realize it.

And unfortunately, I think this bill may very well fall through the cracks, because it looks like Texans who care about the quality of education have bigger fish to fry right now:

Uresti: Rallies show Texans understand what budget cuts will do to public education - San Antonio Express-News

The state governor is talking about cutting billions - billions - from public education. The number I heard before he agreed to go into the state's "rainy day fund" was $10 billion, which (according to estimates I've heard) would mean laying off 1 out of 4 public school teachers.

Apparently, they're now planning to pull about $3 billion out of the "rainy day fund", so I assume the layoffs won't be as bad as that now, but they're still looking at a horrendous blow to education.

This ID protectionism is an important issue, but it's not the most important issue facing the state right now, so it may very well slip through the cracks while the big stuff is going on. You don't bother to try to catch a burglar when your house is on fire.

 

[fantome profane]

Here's the great thing about this, The RF only found out about it after it happened, The RF is not going to organize and do anything about it. NO matter what is said here I already won.

You do have a chance though, You can still organize and stop them in Florida, don't ask me to hold my breath though. If I only have to worry about the RF I should win that one easily too.

Actually I for one am very excited about this. I can’t wait to see what great new scientific advancements come out of Texas as a result of this bill. If Texas universities really do start funding research into I.D. new discoveries are bound to be made. Right? What kind of new discoveries do you imagine will come out of Texas now?

I love the idea of Texas money going towards this kind of research.

I just don’t want any of my money going to this kind of research.