Tests and Difficulties: The Baha’i Viewpoint

[oldbadger]

The Baha’i Faith recommends a very different way of thinking about and dealing with our tests and difficulties. Instead of fearing them and doing our best to avoid them, the Baha’i teachings say we should welcome them:

“Thou hast written concerning the tests that have come upon thee. To the sincere ones, tests are as a gift from God, the Exalted, for a heroic person hasteneth, with the utmost joy and gladness, to the tests of a violent battlefield, but the coward is afraid and trembles and utters moaning and lamentation. Likewise, an expert student prepareth and memorizeth his lessons and exercises with the utmost effort, and in the day of examination he appeareth with infinite joy before the master. Likewise, the pure gold shineth radiantly in the fire of test. Consequently, it is made clear that for holy souls, trials are as the gift of God, the Exalted; but for weak souls they are an unexpected calamity.” Bahá’í World Faith,

Yep........... that's Abdul Baha....... certainly not Bahauallah.

Back to a World of Cowards and Heros, eh?
That's a Bahai World, I'm afraid. Waiting with the branding iron for any who might displease or please, the disabled and the able.

We could run a thread on Cowards and Heros, maybe?

If you run from a battle are you a coward or a hero?
Somebody really should explain this to me sometime.[

 

[oldbadger]

How do you know that it isn't true? How do know the condition of such a person in the next world? Again, that is not authoritative also like in previous quotes from Paris Talks.

As you can see, I am trying to repair the damage you are doing here. I don't think you should be in forums if you say things like this. You are not a firm Baha'i.

There it is! Right there!
A perfect example of how Bahai, in a Bahai World, would censor all.

I think you've just done more damage for Bahai than the OP ever could have. In fact I think the OP is a Hero to have run this thread, rather than a coward....... what d'you reckon?

 

[oldbadger]

I am particularly impressed by Baha'u'llah describing Abdu'l-Baha as "a Word which God hath adorned with the ornament of His Own Self, and made it sovereign over the earth and all that there is therein..."

So much of Christianity is Pauline.
Maybe we could say that so much of Bahai is Abdul Baha?

 

[Truthseeker]

If you do not believe that Abdu'l-Baha added anything then you will have to show me what Baha'u'llah said that was interpreted.

If it was not in the Writings of Baha'u'llah it cannot be an interpretation of the Writings of Baha'u'llah, which would make it an add-

I missed this earlier. It doesn't matter to me if Abdu'l-Baha added anything. The point of the second paragraph of the UHJ is that He is infallible in everything. That's the significance of the quote from that paragraph signifies to me. I've changed my mind from what I believed earlier. But in this case, it happens I don't believe He probably added anything. How can really determine what is an interpretation and what is not in the vast array of Baha'u'llah's Writings, most of which has not been translated in English.

I've tried my best, but this is really testing me. It's 1:00 a.m. here, and I have not even said my obligatory prayer yet. Too often these days, this is my situation. Last night, it was late, and I wanted to sleep, and I skipped the obligatory prayer, and I am saying the long one these days.

I probably have not been consistent in my remarks. Good night, I am leaving this forum. I wanted to accomplish more today.

 

[oldbadger]

“Thou hast written concerning the tests that have come upon thee. To the sincere ones, tests are as a gift from God, the Exalted, for a heroic person hasteneth, with the utmost joy and gladness, to the tests of a violent battlefield, but the coward is afraid and trembles and utters moaning and lamentation. ” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 371

Abdul Baha also wrote this....:-
“A conquest can be a praiseworthy thing, and there are times when war becomes the powerful basis of peace, and ruin the very means of reconstruction. If, for example, a high-minded sovereign marshals his troops to block the onset of the insurgent and the aggressor, or again, if he takes the field and distinguishes himself in a struggle to unify a divided state and people, if, in brief, he is waging war for a righteous purpose, then this seeming wrath is mercy itself, and this apparent tyranny the very substance of justice and this warfare the cornerstone of peace,” J. E. Esslemont, Bahā’u’llāh and the New Era, p. 172 (citing Abdu'l-Baha)

Wow! War is Peace!
Waging war for 'righteous purpose' can be holy!

That is so dangerous.

 

[Truthseeker]

There it is! Right there!
A perfect example of how Bahai, in a Bahai World, would censor all.

I think you've just done more damage for Bahai than the OP ever could have. In fact I think the OP is a Hero to have run this thread, rather than a coward....... what d'you reckon?

I am not censoring anything, I am trying to persuade. This is not being a hero, but I can understand why you think so. She thinks for herself, that is what most Baha'is do. I can also understand why you think I am dong damage. I harbor no grudge against you. You are what you are. I am what I am, fallible and perhaps wrong in what I am trying to do.

 

[Truthseeker]

Abdul Baha also wrote this....:-
“A conquest can be a praiseworthy thing, and there are times when war becomes the powerful basis of peace, and ruin the very means of reconstruction. If, for example, a high-minded sovereign marshals his troops to block the onset of the insurgent and the aggressor, or again, if he takes the field and distinguishes himself in a struggle to unify a divided state and people, if, in brief, he is waging war for a righteous purpose, then this seeming wrath is mercy itself, and this apparent tyranny the very substance of justice and this warfare the cornerstone of peace,” J. E. Esslemont, Bahā’u’llāh and the New Era, p. 172 (citing Abdu'l-Baha)

Wow! War is Peace!
Waging war for 'righteous purpose' can be holy!

That is so dangerous.

She is persuading you of things that are not good. I believe He is describing Abraham Lincoln in one of those examples. You approve of an aggressor in the other example conquering and waging war without any help from anyone?

We are not pacifists, we don't apologize for that.

 

[oldbadger]

I am not censoring anything, I am trying to persuade.

Huh? What?
You wrote:-

I don't think you should be in forums if you say things like this. You are not a firm
Baha'i.

.......... now that is an opinion towards exclusion.
In a Bahai World the inerrant Bahai Government could decide that its holy duty might be to CENSOR anything written or said against it.

This is not being a hero, but I can understand why you think so. She thinks for herself, that is what most Baha'is do.

Of course it is! The OP has spoken her truth despite the sure consequences of Bahai disapproval. Don't forget that Bahai chucks out those that displease it sometimes.

I can also understand why you think I am dong damage.

Well..... thank heavens for that.

I harbor no grudge against you. You are what you are. I am what I am, fallible and perhaps wrong in what I am trying to do.

When folks tell other folks that they should not be on forums because of their opinions, I 'grudge'...... ok?

 

[oldbadger]

She is persuading you of things that are not good.

I'm not that gullible that I get persuaded so easily.
I investigate for myself and in the case of Bahai I have found horrible levels of Double Think.

I believe He is describing Abraham Lincoln in one of those examples.

And....?

You approve of an aggressor in the other example conquering and waging war without any help from anyone?

Abdul Baha was known for his aggression. I don't approve of warmongers whoever they are.

We are not pacifists, we don't apologize for that.

Absolutely!
And in a Bahai World there would be an International police force and military. What would happen to any who spoke against Bahai then, eh?
They might be in rather a lot of danger, I think.

 

[Trailblazer]

It does not say He sends all trials to His servants. A similar thing could be said for the second part of the quote. Besides, this is not authoritative, it was an oral report of what Abdu'l-Baha said, originally translated by who knows who on the fly in Paris.

That is good to know. I was under the impression that everything in the Baha'i Reference Library is authoritative.

See this by Baha'u'llah:

O Son of Spirit!

Ask not of Me that which We desire not for thee, then be content with what We have ordained for thy sake, for this is that which profiteth thee, if therewith thou dost content thyself.

, “The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh” , a18

I realize there is more than one interpretation of "ordained". Here I think it has a double meaning, ordained as laws He revealed for us, and ordained as trials He may send to us. I don't think either in this case that God has ordained everything to happen to us. This would be illogical, because a lot of our trials come to us by humans, who have free will.

I accept whatever has been ordained by God, I simply do not agree with everything Abdu'l-Baha said, even it it is true, because it is insensitive and judgmental to say what I posted in the OP....

You sound like Iggy saying that if it is not in the Bible it can't be true. There is such a thing as progressive revelation. If I was more Bible literate, I might also find something there.

Maybe a Christian can find it for us.

I don't understand why you are attacking Abdu'l-Baha on a public forum as a Baha'i. What impression do you think you are making on the audience here?

If anything, Tony should be hurt by this, not you.

I am not attacking Abdu'l-Baha and I am not trying to make an impression. I am practically in tears I am so hurt by what he wrote but nobody cares, all they care is about is their dogma.

Why would Tony be hurt, because I have my own opinion? That is what we do on RF, have opinions. On Baha'i Forums we cannot have any of our own opinions, we have to just believe.

I don't understand your obsession with only Prophets being infallible. God can cast knowledge into whomever He wills.

That is true, logically speaking, but there is no way for me to know that Abdu'l-Baha was infallible. For certain he has knowledge, but infallible means he cannot make a mistake, and I do not believe that. I believe that Baha'u'llah was infallible because I believe He was a Manifestation of God, and it makes sense to me that He was infallible, given what He wrote.

He doesn't do this for most of us, because He wants us to have free will to discover truth for ourselves. I don't think you should assume because your rational mind disagrees initially with what Abdu'l-Baha says, that is the truth, and you shouldn't investigate this assumption any further.

Maybe what he said was true, but calling people weak souls just because they do not embrace tests with glee is still judgmental and critical.

“Thou hast written concerning the tests that have come upon thee. To the sincere ones, tests are as a gift from God, the Exalted, for a heroic person hasteneth, with the utmost joy and gladness, to the tests of a violent battlefield, but the coward is afraid and trembles and utters moaning and lamentation. Likewise, an expert student prepareth and memorizeth his lessons and exercises with the utmost effort, and in the day of examination he appeareth with infinite joy before the master. Likewise, the pure gold shineth radiantly in the fire of test. Consequently, it is made clear that for holy souls, trials are as the gift of God, the Exalted; but for weak souls they are an unexpected calamity.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 371

You never responded to my major point of what Baha'u'llah said in the second paragraph of the message of what the Universal House of Justice said. What do you think that means? It means a lot to me. Please don't be selective in what you consider, if that is what you are doing.

I did not have time to respond to everything. I do not disagree with any of it but I still think that Abdu'l-Baha was judgmental and insensitive. Could he not imagine how that might make some people who cannot live up to his expectations feel, or did he just not care?

So I am not going against the Covenant if I agree it is true, but I do not have to agree it is kind. I have a right to my opinion, ans if I lose that right I might as well be a robot.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Baha’i Faith recommends a very different way of thinking about and dealing with our tests and difficulties. Instead of fearing them and doing our best to avoid them, the Baha’i teachings say we should welcome them:

“Thou hast written concerning the tests that have come upon thee. To the sincere ones, tests are as a gift from God, the Exalted, for a heroic person hasteneth, with the utmost joy and gladness, to the tests of a violent battlefield, but the coward is afraid and trembles and utters moaning and lamentation. Likewise, an expert student prepareth and memorizeth his lessons and exercises with the utmost effort, and in the day of examination he appeareth with infinite joy before the master. Likewise, the pure gold shineth radiantly in the fire of test. Consequently, it is made clear that for holy souls, trials are as the gift of God, the Exalted; but for weak souls they are an unexpected calamity.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 371

In other words, the Baha’is who do not see tests as gifts from God are not sincere or heroic. They are cowards, weak souls.

This is very judgmental and please note that Baha’u’llah did not write what I quoted above. I believe that Abdu’l-Baha took it upon himself to add to what Baha’u’llah wrote and embellish it. I welcome any Baha’i who can find anything that says anything like this in the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

That quote above is very insensitive and judgmental. I consider it unfortunate if Baha’is cannot even understand why that is the case. I am not just saying this because I have suffered so much; I say this because many people suffer, often through no fault of their own.

It is really sad when a believer belongs to a religion and they cannot even get any compassion or understanding from others who belong to the same religion. I have to rely upon people of other religions and atheists for any compassion and understanding.

I think that Baha’is need to wake up and smell the coffee. What I am saying has nothing to do with the Baha’i Faith but rather it is an attitude of “some Baha’is” who consider their “teachings” more important than other people’s feelings. What Abdul-Baha said above sounds like it came out of a recipe book called “How to suffer and be happy” but I think it is unreasonable to expect everyone to be able to cope with suffering the same way because no two people are alike nor are their life situations alike..

I will remind the Baha’is of the following passage. I will also remind them that God is the one who created this world that is a storehouse of suffering.

“O thou seeker of the Kingdom! Thy letter was received. Thou hast written of the severe calamity that hath befallen thee—the death of thy respected husband. That honourable man hath been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world that his greatest wish was for deliverance from it. Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world. The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions. Thus it is seen that some, under extreme pressure of anguish, have committed suicide.

As to thy husband, rest assured. He will be immersed in the ocean of pardon and forgiveness and will become the recipient of bounty and favour. Strive thine utmost to give his child a Bahá’í training so that when he attaineth maturity he may be merciful, illumined and heavenly.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200

So I guess this man who committed suicide was an insincere weak soul. Why then will he will be immersed in the ocean of pardon and forgiveness and become the recipient of bounty and favor of God?

Abdu’l-Bahá said: “The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it;”

But even if we are detached from this world and do not depend upon it, we have to live in it. This idea promulgated by some Baha’is that if we were detached from this world we would never suffer implies that all people who suffer are attached to this world, but such is not the case.

A person can be attached to a friend or family member or an animal they love dearly and suffer when a death occurs. It is written in the Baha’i history how much the Guardian Shoghi Effendi suffered when his grandfather Abdu’l-Baha died. So is there some kind of double standard whereby the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith can suffer but a Baha’i who suffers just needs to be more detached?

I consider it reprehensible to say to someone who is suffering that they just need to be more detached, embrace their tests and never complain, but sadly, that is what many Baha’is say. Unfortunately, this is what religious beliefs can do to some people. However, these are not the teachings of Baha’u’llah.

“Be generous in prosperity, and thankful in adversity. Be worthy of the trust of thy neighbor, and look upon him with a bright and friendly face. Be a treasure to the poor, an admonisher to the rich, an answerer of the cry of the needy, a preserver of the sanctity of thy pledge. Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech. Be unjust to no man, and show all meekness to all men. Be as a lamp unto them that walk in darkness, a joy to the sorrowful, a sea for the thirsty, a haven for the distressed, an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression. Let integrity and uprightness distinguish all thine acts. Be a home for the stranger, a balm to the suffering, a tower of strength for the fugitive. Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring. Be an ornament to the countenance of truth, a crown to the brow of fidelity, a pillar of the temple of righteousness, a breath of life to the body of mankind, an ensign of the hosts of justice, a luminary above the horizon of virtue, a dew to the soil of the human heart, an ark on the ocean of knowledge, a sun in the heaven of bounty, a gem on the diadem of wisdom, a shining light in the firmament of thy generation, a fruit upon the tree of humility.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 285

(Continued on next post)

So, what is your take on this:

"....He hath, therefore, in every season sent down upon mankind the showers of tests from His realm of glory." Bahaullah, Iqan

 

[Trailblazer]

I missed this earlier. It doesn't matter to me if Abdu'l-Baha added anything. The point of the second paragraph of the UHJ is that He is infallible in everything.

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe.
I do not have to believe it because the UHJ said it.
At the end of this life I am only accountable to God, not to the UHJ.
On Judgment Day, I doubt God is going to ask me if I believed that Abdu'l-Baha was infallible....
But God might ask me if I loved others and if I was kind and compassionate towards them.

“Know ye that the world and its vanities and its embellishments shall pass away. Nothing will endure except God’s Kingdom which pertaineth to none but Him, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Help in Peril, the All-Glorious, the Almighty. The days of your life shall roll away, and all the things with which ye are occupied and of which ye boast yourselves shall perish, and ye shall, most certainly, be summoned by a company of His angels to appear at the spot where the limbs of the entire creation shall be made to tremble, and the flesh of every oppressor to creep. Ye shall be asked of the things your hands have wrought in this, your vain life, and shall be repaid for your doings. This is the day that shall inevitably come upon you, the hour that none can put back. To this the Tongue of Him that speaketh the truth and is the Knower of all things hath testified.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 125
.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, what is your take on this:

"....He hath, therefore, in every season sent down upon mankind the showers of tests from His realm of glory." Bahaullah, Iqan

I have no problem with that, but it does not say God singles out individuals and sends them a test to teach them a lesson.

 

[Trailblazer]

She is persuading you of things that are not good.

I do not persuade oldbadger of anything, he thinks for himself. He knows all about the Baha'i Faith, as his first wife who passed away was a Baha'i.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Seen from outside of Baha'I my understanding of our suffering is that it is our own karma that lead to the pain and suffering in physical life, that is why we are on planet earth. To repay our past wrongdoings.
I guess my understanding is far from Baha'I understanding

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you think Baha'u'llah was arrogant too when He made His stupendous claim. He sure sounds arrogant to a lot of people. You don't question your initial assumptions about everything Abdu'l-Baha.

No, I do not think Baha'u'llah was arrogant, because I believe He was a Manifestation of God...
Abdu'l-Baha wasn't.

 

[Trailblazer]

I guess I understanding is far from Baha'I understanding

That's okay, we all have our own understandings, and the Baha'i Faith does not have the only truth.

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's okay, we all have our own understandings, and the Baha'i Faith does not have the only truth.

I believe that all humans has their own understanding of the teaching they cultivate, meaning that even you disagree with some of Baha'I teaching it is not wrong. It means that you may have more to realize, or that you reached the wisdom level you can within that teaching.

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you know that it isn't true? How do know the condition of such a person in the next world? Again, that is not authoritative also like in previous quotes from Paris Talks.

How do you know it is true? How do know the condition of such a person in the next world?

As you can see, I am trying to repair the damage you are doing here. I don't think you should be in forums if you say things like this. You are not a firm Baha'i.

I am not doing any damage. Everyone here already knows about the Baha'i Faith and they can think for themselves.
I am a firm Baha'i because I believe in Baha'u'llah, I am just not a brainwashed Baha'i.

 

[Spirit of Light]

How do you know it is true? How do know the condition of such a person in the next world?

I am not doing any damage. Everyone here already knows about the Baha'i Faith and they can think for themselves.
I am a firm Baha'i because I believe in Baha'u'llah, I am just not a brainwashed Baha'i.

Asking questions is a good way to realize deeper wisdom
Yes it can hurt for those who disagree or see it differently, I know because when I am asked difficult questions I do not know the answer to, it can shake the foundation under my feet, until I my self realize the truth about the question