Taoism and the Force

[Master Vigil]

The force does not dictate anything. Neither does the Tao. I also do not find it logical that we were made in gods image, especially the fact that god is perfect, omnipotent, and solely good. We have none of these traits. And to say that god is loving is a contradiction to his perfection. For one cannot love perfectly and damn perfectly. Also with the idea of free will. If god is omnipotent, than why did god not give us perfect free will, where even given choices, we were made to always choose good. Being that god did not, and evil still exists shows gods limit on his omnipotence. And if god isn't omnipotent, than god is not god. Now, the force, as with the Tao, is not solely good, or solely evil but is the perfect balance between them. Does not have gender for a perfect essence would not need it. Has no human characteristics because it is not human at all. The idea of the judeo christian god has too many holes therefore I don't believe "He" exists. I am not atheist however, but Taoist.

 

[Master Vigil]

hahahaha!!!! So is spinkility light the dark side of the force????

 

[Runt]

The Dark Side, young padiwon learner.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

lol someone tell Rex we need to add a new religion in the World Religions Discussion.... Spinkility!

The subtitle will be "A Gathering of Spinkles"

 

[Master Vigil]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! And in the future your followers will be known as Spinklers.

 

[Runt]

Why in the future? Why not now?

*bows down to Mr_Spinkles and prostrates herself on the ground* O Great Spinkles, God of... um... Spinkility... allow me, your humblest of servants, to be your first devoted Spinkler!

 

[Master Vigil]

HAHAHAHA!!!! I'll stick with taoism.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

hahaha!

Hey once my religion gets going I could use all of my followers to construct a giant "Spinks" in my likeness, ust like the ancient Pharoahs (the face will look like my avatar)

hahaha wow I've led us completely off topic

 

[Master Vigil]

Yes I agree it is a dead topic. If you would like to create that topic, I think it would spur some interesting conversation.

 

[Runt]

Hehe, done

 

[Runt]

LOL, I personally think "Taoism and the Force" is a dead topic... we've said all there is to say about it.

You know what would be fun? Starting a new topic about creating a religion... in which we create a religion... perhaps in the "off topic" forum.

 

[Francine]

still wrong force. The force from star wars is the essence which causes everything, creates and destroys everything, binds all life together, allows for enlightenment, it is like the Tao. Or like chi, which the Tao produces.

Bad choice of names, "Force". Sounds like a chisel. Tao is an uncarved block, mind at its beginning. "Nothing should be done to it. Whoever does anything to it will ruin it."

 

[zenzero]

Friend Francine,
Even to put Tao as an uncarved block would be again a wrong choice of words.
If it was that easy Lao Tzu would not have said that Truth once spoken no more remains the truth.
Similarly signifying Tao as an uncarved block would again be viewed wrongly.
What Master Vigil was stating is the other side.
Tao would rather be like the centre of a storm the void part. Centre of the block which cannot be seen, yet there is a centre even within us. We can be one with it but cannot see it. It moves everything but itself does not move. Creates everything but itself cannot be created. Destroys everything but itself cannot be destroyed.
Love & rgds

 

[TaoistThinker]

The Tao is a force though. One cannot truly describe what the Tao is, but we can all give hints as to what it is about. I believe that the Tao is a 'force' in itself.

 

[MoonWater]

The force in star wars is directly taken from the Tao of Taoism so it comes as no surprise that there are similarities. However there is one glaring difference and I don't know if it's presence is due to a misunderstanding/misrepresentation/misinterpretation on George Lucas's part, the fact that most of the focus is on just one side and thus naturally comes out biased against the other or if there's some other reason behind it but from what I understand Light and Dark in Taoism is not synonymous with good and evil respectively as is so often portrayed in star wars with the force. In fact I'd go so far as to say good and evil aren't even concepts in Taoism, or if they are they are very different from the common modern day view.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The Tao is a force though. One cannot truly describe what the Tao is, but we can all give hints as to what it is about.I believe that the Tao is a 'force' in itself.

Hi TaoistThinker, my understanding is that the Tao (Way) is not considered a force per se, but THAT from which all apparent forces appear to originate.. Nothing of subtance can be said of the Tao since it is beyond duality, i.e. it is non-dual. But of the Tao's apparent manifestation, duality leads to infinite diversity and hence an endless play of creative and destructive forces.

"The Tao gives birth to One.
One gives birth to Two.
Two gives birth to Three.
Three gives birth to all things." Tao Te Ching

The 'going' and 'returning' forces associated with the Tao are called chi.
To indulge in preferences for the chi aspects of ying and yang, is to fall under the maya of dualistic complementary opposites and an apparent loss of the Tao.

Quote from Hsin Hsin Ming,
"The great Way in not difficult for those who do not discriminate, but for those who have the slightest preference, Heaven and Earth appear infinitely apart."

BTW, IMO the scriptural 'Good and evil' expression in the west also represents the complementary opposite internal nature of the absolute, hence the same theme in Genesis whereby to 'eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil' results in the fall/separation from Eden (heaven/paradise) to Earth.

Meditation practice ultimately leads to the stilling of the mind which is the cessation of dualistic conceptual thoughts and realization of the great WAY.

 

[Elessar]

The force in star wars is directly taken from the Tao of Taoism so it comes as no surprise that there are similarities. However there is one glaring difference and I don't know if it's presence is due to a misunderstanding/misrepresentation/misinterpretation on George Lucas's part, the fact that most of the focus is on just one side and thus naturally comes out biased against the other or if there's some other reason behind it but from what I understand Light and Dark in Taoism is not synonymous with good and evil respectively is so often portrayed in star wars with the force. In fact I'd go so far as to say good and evil aren't even concepts in Taoism, or if they are they are very different from the common modern day view.

Well, then again (I am not a Daoist nor especially knowing in Daoism, though I have read the Daodejing), the Light Side and Dark Side are not necessarily good and evil in Star Wars, either (I mean, in the greater universe created by the huge amount of intellectual property involved; the films themselves, yes, very much so). If one reads about the vast religious conflicts within the Jedi Order throughout the Star Wars galaxy's history, you would find that the "Light Side" and "Dark Side" being related to good and evil is a relatively new concepts, only found in the past 6,000 years (as opposed to the 25,000 years of the history of the Republic and the Jedi Order), found due to ambitious Dark Side Jedi knights attempting to overthrow the Jedi Council and the Republic, leading to a total schism and the complete separation between Jedi and Sith philosophy. Basically, Jedi and Republic propaganda characterized the other side as "Evil" in their propaganda for so long that even Jedi philosophy came to see the other side of the tao, the Dark Side, as evil rather than just opposite.

 

[MoonWater]

Well, then again (I am not a Daoist nor especially knowing in Daoism, though I have read the Daodejing), the Light Side and Dark Side are not necessarily good and evil in Star Wars, either (I mean, in the greater universe created by the huge amount of intellectual property involved; the films themselves, yes, very much so). If one reads about the vast religious conflicts within the Jedi Order throughout the Star Wars galaxy's history, you would find that the "Light Side" and "Dark Side" being related to good and evil is a relatively new concepts, only found in the past 6,000 years (as opposed to the 25,000 years of the history of the Republic and the Jedi Order), found due to ambitious Dark Side Jedi knights attempting to overthrow the Jedi Council and the Republic, leading to a total schism and the complete separation between Jedi and Sith philosophy. Basically, Jedi and Republic propaganda characterized the other side as "Evil" in their propaganda for so long that even Jedi philosophy came to see the other side of the tao, the Dark Side, as evil rather than just opposite.

YEah I knew about that I just momentarily forgot about it. lol. I was speaking mainly in terms of the movies though but you are right, before the time of the movies the line was not so starkly drawn. Though I have to admit that it wasn't entirely the fault of Jedi propaganda. The sith, when they started out, from what I understand, were simply more warrior like and focused more on strength and power and, most likely, also had a powerful honor system. They were more along the lines of klingons from star trek or the samurai from ancient Japan. They just ended up shooting themselves in the foot in a way because the only way to advance among the sith was to prove that you were stronger than those who held a higher position. That's actually a rather noble proposition when you think about it and is also quite common among ancient tribes. But after thousands of years of doing this it slowly became more and more extreme, to the point where power became the sole focus and the honor system was lost, quite sad really.

 

[Segovax]

I'm doing a paper on an aspect of Taoism and was considering comparing the force and the tao.

I'm pretty aware of similarities. However I'm looking for inspiration into differences other than perhaps the tao can't be used to lock doors or throw robots across hallways into incoming stormtroopers, but perhaps contrary lines or beliefs the jedi order (at any time) had with the Taoism (not the Tao itself).

I'm well aware of the differences between Shang Jing Taoism and the force. Shang Jing was the predominant system of Toaism pre-Song dynasty. Where living a life of filial piety and drinking actual alchemical potions could make you an immortal. Also you could live my gulping the life force of the moon and the sun as you practiced swallowing your saliva and gnashing your teeth.

It's Inner Alchemy Toaism that I'm more interested in, since that was where George Lucas got his inspiration. Inner Alchemy basically rejecting the absurdities of Shang Jing (mercury poising immortal potions kinda soured people to Shang Jing). Inner Alchemy is what is general taught today as what Taoism is.


Anyway, just looking for some inspiration to a possible paper.